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The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:09:58 AM

LadyHathor

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is not listening, being too busy thinking of what to say and not listening, not putting yourself in the other person's life/shoes/moccasins/98%I

agree? or not?

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:14:13 AM

DomMeinCT

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I wouldn't say it's the greatest failing, but it is a failing.

And I'm not sure it would necessarily be a failing that is specific to Americans, alone.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:14:48 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is not listening, being too busy thinking of what to say and not listening, not putting yourself in the other person's life/shoes/moccasins/98%I

agree? or not?

I disagree that the failing is intrinsically American. I do agree that a great many humans of all nationalities are guilty of that particular sin--including myself, although I like to think not 98% of the time!

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:23:23 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is not listening, being too busy thinking of what to say and not listening, not putting yourself in the other person's life/shoes/moccasins/98%I

agree? or not?

The fierce individualism that is elevated to virtue level isn't conducive to listen to what another person is saying; add to that the bloody school debating societies (Gawd! They should do away with those!) and you end up with a particuarly virulent strain of notlisteningtowhatotherpeoplesayitis.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:24:13 AM

addisonclarkgirl

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It is one of our biggest failings, but I think it is not just Americans who don't succeed at this.

Of course, after that, electing George Bush is pretty close up there.

(I had no part in that!)

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:25:23 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

The fierce individualism that is elevated to virtue level isn't conducive to listen to what another person is saying;

How is it that celebration of the individual precludes listening to what others have to say?

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:30:14 AM

DesFIP

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I see nothing wrong in being selfish. If my needs aren't met, then I simply haven't any energy to meet someone else's needs. And that's just a fact of life.

I don't think that it's healthy to think of others 98% of the time, leaving only scraps to feed your own soul.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:34:08 AM

pahunkboy

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to me I fail when I dont logisitcaly cite the choices/options then act.

whiney moaning - best left in the bed room

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:37:13 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

The fierce individualism that is elevated to virtue level isn't conducive to listen to what another person is saying;

How is it that celebration of the individual precludes listening to what others have to say?

You just gave a perfect example of what I was saying

.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:39:02 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

The fierce individualism that is elevated to virtue level isn't conducive to listen to what another person is saying;

How is it that celebration of the individual precludes listening to what others have to say?

You just gave a perfect example of what I was saying .

How so? I asked a question. I invite you to expand on your ideas.

How am I not listening?

Edited to add:
This would make, I think, an interesting discussion, but I would not want to hijack LadyHathor's thread. If we are to discuss this in depth, moving it to its own thread at some point might be prudent.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 3/24/2008 7:40:54 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:47:58 AM

kittinSol

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I can't believe I have to explain something so evident... if you raise children to think that "me" is always more important than "we" or "you", you're going to end up with a society that is full of individuals who will push through their personal agendas regardless of what others say or think, and even of the common good.

Perhaps you didn't listen to me and rushed through with your defense of all things invididual? Or perhaps you deliberately misinterpreted what I wrote, which was "fierce individualism", and transformed it into "celebration of the individual", therefore making it look like I was criticising something that's positive and good. A pure rhetorical exercise - did you go to the school debating team

?

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:51:57 AM

MzMia

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One of the greatest skill sets one can have is being able to listen to what is important
to them, from people that are important to them, can help them, etc.

We live in a time of information overload and personally a lot of people and crap I do
not want to listen to, and I am learning new ways to filter their crap into one ear and out the other.

Many need to learn who and what to listen to, and who not too!

Do I need to work on listening more to people that have failed at life, and everything they do
or have done, and are trying to tell me what to do?

Not every person is someone you SHOULD listen to!
My personal favorites are those that are single, and have never had a long term lasting loving relationship, that are always giving advice on how to have one.

NO, the best thing many of us can do is work on improving our listening and receptive skill set in order to listen to those, that we should be listening too.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 3/24/2008 7:54:56 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:54:06 AM

addisonclarkgirl

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When I saw this post, I immediately thought of the Golden Rule..."Treat (love) others as you would like to be treated (loved)." Even if you're not Christian, this is a premise for quite a few religions, and even non-religious people believe in this.

The rule does not state, "Treat others better than yourself." It does not state, "Treat yourself better than others." Thus, I believe we are meant to treat ourselves and others with as much dignity and respect as possible.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 7:56:13 AM

Leatherist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I can't believe I have to explain something so evident... if you raise children to think that "me" is always more important than "we" or "you", you're going to end up with a society that is full of individuals who will push through their personal agendas regardless of what others say or think, and even of the common good.

Perhaps you didn't listen to me and rushed through with your defense of all things invididual? Or perhaps you deliberately misinterpreted what I wrote, which was "fierce individualism", and transformed it into "celebration of the individual", therefore making it look like I was criticising something that's positive and good. A pure rhetorical exercise - did you go to the school debating team ?

I agree. Teaching selfish competitiveness at all costs is our biggest single issue. It makes us a nation of users, not sharers.

You don;t get far if you spend all of your time pulling the rug out from under your nieghbor.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:01:42 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I agree. Teaching selfish competitiveness at all costs is our biggest single issue. It makes us a nation of users, not sharers.

The spirit of competition, the cheerleading, the self-agrandisement, are some of the things I'm finding toughest to cope with in American society... but I'll get used to it, I guess. Won't I

?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/24/2008 8:02:09 AM >

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:05:34 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I can't believe I have to explain something so evident... if you raise children to think that "me" is always more important than "we" or "you", you're going to end up with a society that is full of individuals who will push through their personal agendas regardless of what others say or think, and even of the common good.

Perhaps you didn't listen to me and rushed through with your defense of all things invididual? Or perhaps you deliberately misinterpreted what I wrote, which was "fierce individualism", and transformed it into "celebration of the individual", therefore making it look like I was criticising something that's positive and good. A pure rhetorical exercise - did you go to the school debating team ?

quote:

1. a social theory advocating the liberty, rights, or independent action of the individual.
2. the principle or habit of or belief in independent thought or action.
3. the pursuit of individual rather than common or collective interests; egoism.
4. individual character; individuality.
5. an individual peculiarity.
6. Philosophy.
a. the doctrine that only individual things are real.
b. the doctrine or belief that all actions are determined by, or at least take place for, the benefit of the individual, not of society as a whole.

Which definition do you apply to "individualism"? I apply definition #1, incorporating #2 secondarily.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:24:54 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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There is nothing wrong with the spirit of competition it helps drives society forward. We all do it, we all compete on the global stage building the biggest this or having the most that. The greatest American failing in my oh so humble opinion is ignorance of the needs of other parts of the world but once again we are all guilty of that to some extent.

When was the last time you heard a European ask what is Europe’s greatest failing?

Also teenage mutant ninja turtles, what was all that about?

On the issue of rug pulling giving you an advantage it really depends how heavy your neighbour is.

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:46:02 AM

kittinSol

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3 & 2

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 8:51:30 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

3 & 2

On the evils of egoism we agree. I have never argued otherwise. I do argue in favor of individual liberty, individual choice, individual responsibility. I reject the view of the "collective".

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RE: The Greatest American failing - 3/24/2008 9:51:25 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

3 & 2

On the evils of egoism we agree. I have never argued otherwise. I do argue in favor of individual liberty, individual choice, individual responsibility. I reject the view of the "collective".

The USA is a collective, it is fighting as a collective in Iraq, as it did in Vietnam. Both were wars where most of the US's allies said were stupid imperial jollies but the US administration refused to listen. Harold Wilson (British Prime Minister), refused to have British troops fight in what he called Vietnam, a 'colonial war', when Britain was trying to shake off its imperial past. Tony Blair openly called interventionism such as Iraq as Liberal Neo-Imperialism. One collective intervening in the affairs aof another collective. The only country other than the US I've seen so many national flags flying and uniforms on the street is the Soviet Union.

The ideological individualism of the US benefits big money, that is its sole raison d'etre. Ordinary Americans have bought a 'pig in a poke' because the cult of the individual has not given ordinary Americans any more liberty than other westerners but has put them at the mercy of big money which is what appears to govern America.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/24/2008 9:54:32 AM >

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