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RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 9:54:01 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GiantSteps

I expect more from people who know their way around the block, AquaticSub - you get the respect you give. I'm no stranger to the board  cliques, and I'm not so wet behind the ears that I can be easily subbed by a no-nothing post and a catty "*S*"

And Aileen - armor gets dirty, if you use it. It's not supposed to be there for show.



People can know their way around the block and still have a lot to learn. If you want to teach and be an example for newbies, you have a lot of growing to do. You make a lot of snide comments that remind me of children brickering on a playground.

You want to teach and protect newbies but once they've graduated you can rip them to shreds because they've "been around the block"? When I was new, I found people that I respected and followed their posts because what they said made sense and because they didn't see fit to insult people the way you have.


_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to GiantSteps)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 9:59:51 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Personally, I enjoy it when someone comes in here beating their chests because they have the most stupendous idea ever that they just must enlighten us all with.  Then we all get to watch as they get all pissy and nasty when their crowning glory isn't met with as much gusto as they dreamed.  It's predictable and speaks volumes of the poster.

_____________________________



(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:03:25 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		The evil bitch in me has to agree with you...

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:05:04 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		It's also pretty standard behavior for the 'Captain Saveaho' types, but they never seem to see it themselves because they're too busy convincing themselves that the "community" needs them.

~stef 

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:09:30 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		Hey, are we all being as nice as we know how to be?

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to stef)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:10:58 AM   
nohalo


Posts: 437
Status: offline

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:13:39 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Guess I'm strangely cynical for when I put myself out there on this site, I didn't expect all who contacted me to be as they portrayed.  I talked and listened not only to them but to my gut and there were people that I wouldn't go near for some of the things they said made me realize that they and I wouldn't mesh.  Though I was desireous of getting physical with someone I also didn't throw caution to the wind.  I read the boards alot and learned from various threads and various people.  I think that there can be alot of knowlege gleaned from this site and I think that generally the gems of information won't be found in a specific area but tend to come out in epiphanies when posting in general.

An area specifically geared towards new people would isolate the lazy and they'd loose alot of that information.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:27:46 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		*shrugs* I have been a member on loads of the other sites, This is by far the best forum I have seen and Giant if here is so crap then umm why be here? See I initially saw your point but you seem to get so angry at people for no reason (seeing as you were advocating teaching then slagging someone off when they got the site mixed up Id guess you aint much of a teacher) and to be fair people dont like it when you come and shit all over something with loads of hints of superiority, differant sites work for differant people dont they.

_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

(in reply to GiantSteps)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:48:34 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		What I don't understand is why anyone thinks that one site should be all things to all people.  There are tons of yahoo groups for BDSM, there are tons of classes put on all over the place, there are groups like BDSM Mentors who put on "bootcamps" in the Los Angeles area ("Submissive Survival Weekend" and "Dom Bootcamp" for starters).  You practically have to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and say "la la la la la" to not find SOME sort of education available.

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to colouredin)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 11:34:50 AM   
Bound2One


Posts: 614
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GiantSteps
Bound2One, the concept of community is you look out for one another. It isn't your responsibility to call the fire department if you see your neighbor's house on fire, either. It depends on your sense of a responsibility that extends past your own doorstep.I was solid with the fact that there are folks here were so uninterested in community - what lit the short fuse is that in suggesting we call the fire department, I started getting brickbatted as an arsonist.

Unless you've only brought in 2 newbies in the past month, the distribution here is skewed. If I were a newbie, I'd be hesitant to stick my dumb nose into this venue for fear of getting it chewed off too.



One thing you have to remember - I have received emails from a few people who have been members of CM for a long time, but have never posted on the boards for some reason - shyness, lack of time, lack of interest in getting involved, but wanting still to read the boards.  Anyway - these emails have said 'thanks for sharing yourself on here' and other similar things.  I'm sure I'm not the only person who has received that sort of email on the other side of CM.  Lots of people read these boards - you can see who is viewing the threads at the top of the screen.  You can't know who is reading what someone has written and what they've gotten from it - so people are being helped without you ever really knowing it.

As far as being a newbie and being hesitant - I can understand that, having been there myself not so long ago.  But someone is either going to get involved, or not, depending on their personality and motivations.  Just like if they were going to a munch for the first time - it takes a certain amount of courage to do so, but the rewards can be immense. 

Hey- I'm not really against a newbie board.  Perhaps you can chat with the powers that be and volunteer to be moderator for that board and get it started.  I don't know how management will feel about it.  I do see some inherent problems with a newbie board - for example, there is rarely, if ever, one way to do things, so I can see a lot of debating going on.  I can see trolling becoming an issue also, but when a woman sub puts up a profile, she is inundated with mail anyway.  ::shrug::

If you feel that there is info to be imparted to newbies, write a post about it.  Stephan has written some excellent posts in the last few weeks which are very thought provoking and incredibly helpful.  Like I said above, you never know who's reading your words and what they may get for it. 

(in reply to GiantSteps)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 3:41:14 PM   
Real_Trouble


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/25/2008
Status: offline 		My commentary:

1 - I find such an approach incredibly paternalistic and problematic.  Who gives someone the authority to make that kind of decision for someone else?  Who is the arbiter?  What are the standards?  All of the issues that occur with top-down enforced authority would occur here; I believe almost always it is better to simply let people learn for themselves.  Much more effective that way, and in many cases, idiots will be idiots and there is nothing you can do to stop them.

2 - It seems to me that such a situation would be seriously rife with abuse; gatekeepers in any sense would have undue power and that, at all costs, should be prevented.  Also, to echo comments above, how the fuck would you legislate or administrate it?

So, in short:

No, bad idea.  There are plenty of resources for those who want to learn, and for those who do not want to learn and do their homework... they deserve what they get.


_____________________________

Send lawyers, guns, and money.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 4:35:22 PM   
DragonLady5


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Upstate NY
Status: offline 		Bound2One, thank you. You've said pretty much what I was trying to say. I am a relative newbie and was quite taken aback by the ferocity of those against the basic idea. Just because something can be difficult to do doesn't make it a bad idea. I agree with other posters that a newbie board will probably never materialize, but I, for one, would frequent it if it existed, knowing full well that there are dangers lurking, even as on all boards.
GiantSteps, I applaud you for trying to consider making things a bit easier for newbies. I guess I would have to say this isn't the time or place (society in general, not this board). I still think it was basically a good idea.
For those who disagree, I'm sorry you've given up on helping your fellow man (newbies, at least). I really do understand your points, I guess I'm just an eternal optimist. I always try to see both sides. And to be really corny, "Can't we all just get along?"
And now I'll duck and take my lumps.

(in reply to Bound2One)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 5:35:17 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		is this essentially another "can we have a newbie board?" thread? cause we did this last month and a few months before that...and the answer is...these boards are moderated, to create another board would create more work to be done for volunteer workers who do an often thankless job that we really do appreciate, and umm no newbie board...sorry...

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to DragonLady5)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 7:06:04 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DragonLady5

Bound2One, thank you. You've said pretty much what I was trying to say. I am a relative newbie and was quite taken aback by the ferocity of those against the basic idea. Just because something can be difficult to do doesn't make it a bad idea. I agree with other posters that a newbie board will probably never materialize, but I, for one, would frequent it if it existed, knowing full well that there are dangers lurking, even as on all boards.
GiantSteps, I applaud you for trying to consider making things a bit easier for newbies. I guess I would have to say this isn't the time or place (society in general, not this board). I still think it was basically a good idea.
For those who disagree, I'm sorry you've given up on helping your fellow man (newbies, at least). I really do understand your points, I guess I'm just an eternal optimist. I always try to see both sides. And to be really corny, "Can't we all just get along?"
And now I'll duck and take my lumps.



Do we really need to train 40 year olds  about the dangers of meeting a stranger???
Should they need training program at that age  to know how terribly wrong it is to meet some strange man at his home for the first time before you even know his name or phone number and on top of that  not to let anyone know where you are and  let him tie you up and make you  totally defenseless and beat you  and what ever else he want to do to you ??  

most UM's by the time they hit grade 3 are wiser and know it would be dangerous

you cannot train common sense into someone who does  not want to use it

We are not here discussing rocket science


And lets say  CM agrees to let GiantSteps  put together a safe meet instructional program  online for new subs, and some sub follows it to a tee but things still go wrong  and she ends of get savagely raped and beaten, leaving permanent life long damage , and the police tell her she should have parked closer to the donut shop door under the street lights inorder to have prevented the situation from occuring instead of parking out back in the alley  near where the garbage cans are kept  where  her vehicle was in shadows at 2 am,  (ooops! this was not discussed in the training program) now she is upset  because she was promised she was going come here and learn how to keep herself safe but was not taught other safety facts the could her prevented the assault for occuring, so in her anger she decides to sue CM and GiantSteps because they failed to to protect her by  not giving her "ALL" the pertinent  info she needed in the "traininig course".. nobody is going to foresee every potentially danger or what other non common sense events may take place,  and once your start referring to it as a camp, course, training probably  you start assuming liability

Adults should not be relying on  everyone else to protect them, they still have to use their own common sense  and look around to see were potential problems can occur, and take actions to protect themselves instead of relying on others to look out for them.

Because you agreed it was a good idea are you willing to chip in a help pay the $2.4 million awsuit that gets levied against CM and GiantSteps??


GiantSteps are you prepared to take on that liability???

< Message edited by Maya2001 -- 3/26/2008 7:09:09 PM >

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to DragonLady5)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 9:30:24 PM   
GiantSteps


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Nigh Philadelphia
Status: offline 		What I'm prepared to do is exactly what everyone here is prepared to do - nothing at all.

If chellekitty is correct, this isn't the first time this has been brought up - "we did this last month and a few months before that," so it's not like the idea is something that hasn't been fowarded before - presumably all by mad predators out looking for some easy trolling targets like myself. The demographics of the OPs on the boards mean nothing, because the presumption that newbies feel comfortable throwing their posts out overrides the evidence to the contrary.

Considering the fire I've taken in simply fowarding and defending the concept, I wouldn't approach the mods about the idea seperately, simply because it would lend creedence to my evil motives. If the board was made, I'd have to recuse myself of it simply to seperate myself from the charge that I'm looking for newbie bait.

As far as I am concerned at this point, the official CM position is that newbies that do stupid things do it because they are stupid and deserve it, they don't post because they have no questions to ask, shouldn't bug people unless they've researched a subject themselves, and nobody should feel responsibility for bringing up the next wave. I will continue to disagree with this position, but I won't foward an alternative again.

One question though, Maya - and it's a sincere one: I've read in the last several days advice on several aspects of play, including how to go about using a bullwhip. If the poster takes the advice offered, and moves the tissue paper without breaking it 45 times out of fifty, then gets to a RT, gets his juices running and rips his sub open from shoulder to coxxyx, are we ponying up that 2.4 million still? If your argument is valid, how should this affect CM throughout the boards?

(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 9:39:07 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		You really should stick around the board and see how things happen *before* making a lot of statements like that. Newbies do post, otherwise you wouldn't see ice cream cones floating around. There are the more frequent posters but you get that with any board. A lot of basic questions do get asked, over and over again, sometimes to the mild annoyence of people who are tired of repeating their answers every couple of months but also want to help other people learn. Certain questions pop up every four to eight weeks, like clockwork, as people new to the lifestyle show up. I believe there are few "I'm new, could you give me some advice" threads going on right now, at least one in the "Ask A Master" section.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to GiantSteps)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 9:49:15 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I guess my post must have been overlooked.  My stance is not "newbies deserve it rough and don't deserve help"

My stance is newbies get as much good resources already as one could ever dream of- all they have to do is use it.

They don't.  Not because it isn't available, but because they choose to ignore it.  It's not about what they DESERVE, it's about the consequences of their own choices.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:08:39 PM   
GiantSteps


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Nigh Philadelphia
Status: offline 		AquaticSub, an ice cream cone doesn't neccessarily determine newbie status - only to the boards, not nec. to the lifestyle. A few of the posts I reffed from the front page today were from low-posting nicks with extensive experience outside the board. Once I boiled it down to those with no mention of previous experience, I came down to two. Maybe it was an unusual day; could happen.

It seems to me that (and god forbid I mention this again) a newbie board would remove these returning posts you've referred to from the flow of the regular board, thus cutting back on the exasperation of the vets having it pop up every X number of days or weeks. A rolling schedule of Faqs reposted every week or two on that board would cut even further down on the information gap.

It really doesn't matter at this point, however. As far as I'm concerned, the corporate culture here has been spelled out for me, and I've got the message.

< Message edited by GiantSteps -- 3/26/2008 10:12:02 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:19:36 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		1: Why bring those questions up, creating more work for the mods, when people can very easily search for those same topics right now? The questions will still be asked, over and over, simply because they weren't on the first page when the person happened to be looking.
2. Even if the newbie forum removes those questions from the mainstream, it will limit the number and variety of answers they get - that isn't helpful to the newbies in the slightest.
3. You don't see a lot of posts where people specifically say "I don't have a lot of previous experience" on the front page over your few days on the forum so you automatically assume that newbies don't post? That's about as bad as the data collection for the ex-gay groups. Are you also looking *through* all the threads on all the front pages? I've seen people comment on threads brought up by other, more experienced, people that the information and advice presented to them was very helpful.

Furthermore, exactly how are we going to define "newbie"? What questions qualify as "newbie questions"? And again, when are we going to kick them out? When have they "been around the block" so that you will expect better? Will there be a placement exam for the forums?

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 3/26/2008 10:20:52 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to GiantSteps)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: SUGGESTION - Newbie Boot camp - 3/26/2008 10:24:21 PM   
GiantSteps


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Nigh Philadelphia
Status: offline 		I did not mean to overlook or specify your post, LuckyA; this point of view may not be what you fowarded, but that is the main vein of opinion as expressed over the course of five pages of vituperation here.

Put it this way, and in doing so I'm outing myself a bit. At the moment, I'm working on a corporate intranet project that exists solely because the information spread across a very wide number of offices in a very large number of departments is available, but not so accessible that the information contained therein is of any use. All the documents are there. Somewhere. As a result, the information may as well not exist at all - it's reinventing the wheel every time someone needs to track down a proceedure.

The point of the project is to get those documents out, accessible 24/7 easily and quickly, and presented in a manner that one does not need a Masters degree in corporate speak to decode a directive.

Just because information exists doesn't mean that information is readily available. The next time you need to understand some quirk in your employers health insurance, see what calasthentics need to be carried out to get that information nailed down. Does CM need to be an information asset? Nope. It just seemed to me that it would want to be. That expectatation was in error.

(in reply to GiantSteps)
Profile   Post #: 100
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