RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse?

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Soulhuntre -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 10:25:28 AM)
10/03/2005 : Edited to correct my spelling, which clearly sucks rocks :) quote: ORIGINAL: Malaki It seems as though many persons that are actually guilty of Domestic Violence join our lifestyle in order to get a free pass to do as they wish under the self-proclaimed title of Master or Dom. Im all my time in BDSM I have rarely encountered these people... though I often here their existence proclaimed loudly. More often, by far, I see people who have a particular view of what BDSM is / should be using the term "abuse" to attempt to marginalize or attack those who are different than they are. quote: ORIGINAL: Malaki These self-professed “Masters” seem to misunderstand the meaning and responsibility of a Master to his (or her) slave. What might those be? Is it a list on some website someplace? Is it the list that some self proclaimed BDSM guru wants to spout at meetings? Is it some BDSM advocacy groups "policy statement"? Who gets to decide for me what my responsabilities are in my own house? The answer is no one. Not one person on Earth gets to dictate these to me. quote: ORIGINAL: Malaki These animals seem to have found a niche for themselves in the BDSM world specifically to make it easier for themselves to have and abuse a mate with little or no recourse. You mean that some of us are in the lifestyle because our dynamics would not fit well in the vanilla universe? I'm guilty. If it is somehow now the act of a bad person to wish to live as I choose and treet my prperty as I choose then of that I am also guilty apparently. quote: ORIGINAL: Malaki Some in the lifestyle know the difference between an abusive relationship a/k/a domestic violence to that of discipline/ punishment between a Master / Dom and his slave/ sub. It seems to me that this difference is intensely personal and not one that the BDSM community has even come close to agreeing on - nor will we ever. What you see as abuse I would not and what you see as acceptable I am sure there is some self appointed SSC hall monitor who considers you one of those "animals" you speak of. quote: ORIGINAL: perfection20005 a way to make it sound like nothing is wrong with the abuse they hand out. The sad fact is, most women in a bad relationship don't know its wrong, so its hard for them to run or walk away. Some who do, end up inside a coffin before its all said and done. It is funny - those are exactly the sentiments used against the lifestyle as a whole by those outside of us. They would happily claim that all submissives are abused and brainwashed (usually by "the patriarchy"). It's (to me) sort of sad that we are still clinging to the concept of peoplr as so naive and weak.

Malaki -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 11:00:04 AM)
Why is the concept of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE so hard to grasp as opposed to concentual BDSM "lifestyle"? If you have doubts perhaps you are an abuser! CLAIRIFICATION: (Exact example to consider - the list goes on, but I am still holding out for intelligence and reason from the reader) 1. Do you brake bones or knock out teeth on a regular basis - AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD THIS IS COMPLETELY FURTHER THAN THE HARD LIMITS SHE HAS SET FOR YOUR "CONSENSUAL" RELATIONSHIP? Keep in mind, if broken bones and knocked out teeth are something you both enjoy, then this does not in ANY way fall into the topic of point. KEY WORD - CONSENSUAL! I am of the extreme in the BDSM lifestyle . . . my slave is a true pain-slut for Me. We enjoy the edge in all aspects of the term. However, there is a difference between the two topics above. Just because we are edge players does not make me Domestically Abusive. We live a Gorean lifestyle. THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING - SO ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE GONE ON ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS INSIDE THEIR HOME, NO SHIT! I have rights and protocol inside my own home as well. This protocol is well known to my slave as is her understanding of consequence when she neglects my protocol. This has turned into an absolutely ridiculous conversation . . . it seems as though many here believe that they and the lifestyle they choose to live are being attacked. That would be like attacking myself. MistressMelissa - Did you read my posts? Rover - What the hell are you babbling about? It is laughable the faith you have our government and our neighbors. You have to murder your wife to get national news let alone local. I live in a major city of 4 million people and rarely if ever see stories relating to Domestic violence unless death is involved. Soulhunter - You apparently read the posts but simply have a lack of understanding! Try reading them AGAIN! I am not attacking the lifestyle nor anyone directly! MM

LordODiscipline -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 11:12:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malaki Two questions pop to mind that every Master should answer (or a slave should answer in regards to their Master). 1) Have you ever acted – beaten someone - out of anger or rage? (This in no way refers to BDSM). ~Yes - of course I was in a hostile environment that demanded this action, or I would have been significantly damaged myself. quote: 2) Do you hide and/or demand your slave hide your behavior from even those within the BDSM world because you are concerned it would be seen as abusive? *~No.* quote: If the answer to either one is yes then perhaps you need to seek professional help. You are abusive – and not in a good way. *I would not agree due to the proviso added (I think you are on the right track, however.* quote: Fairness??? Fairness has no place in this discussion. We are referring to domestic violence. There is nothing fair about domestic violence. Hell - fairness has a place in every discussion... it seldom means anything though. quote: As for the “Responsibilities of a Master”; I assumed everyone would know what this inferred. – YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF YOUR SLAVE! -. Safe, Sane and Consensual are terms repeatedly used within our lifestyle. I know the terms involved... but, I am not responsible for the "safety and well being of my slave" - she is responsible for her own life - I am responsible for her actions... hence my belief that these imposed edicts are mindless. I have a very strong belief in personal responsibility... that precludes me for accepting responsibility for things beyond my control. Will I make her life as "nondestructive" as possible... yes. Can I impact her safety and wellbeing in a positive way?- I can strive for this.... and, I generally succeed. But, she is ultimatly the person responsible for her "safety and well being" - not I. This is why I consider most of these credos mindless exercises in repetetive regurgitation. No basis in reality. And SSC: 1. ...was designed to speak about scene related interaction to allay fears of damage and lend a credo to those that did not understand the intent was not to permanently damage... so, it is not normally associated with how 'I treat her' interrelationally. 2. Repeating something (ad nauseum) does not make it real, tangible, or valid.... just repeated. 3. Not to mention the fact that many people do not adhere to SSC because they do not agree with it. And, by the way - if it were really clear what you were saying, I would not have asked... ~J

Malaki -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 11:26:46 AM)
LordofDiscipline - Your post says it all and completely proves my point. MM

LordODiscipline -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 11:50:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malaki LordofDiscipline - Your post says it all and completely proves my point. MM Which point are we speaking about at this juncture? Again - it is left unclear. ~J

LordODiscipline -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 11:55:42 AM)
Going back and reviewing your most recent post leads me to believe you might be calling me an "abuser".... If this is the case, please do come straight out and state it. Otherwise, It may be construed as a significant lack of veracity, honesty, or (and, even) control. ~J

IronBear -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 11:56:58 AM)
G'day John, In respect to fairness, as I said I used it generally and in reference to nin BDSM areas like parenting and dog handling etc. So perhaps we will agree that itvrealy is a matter of semantics. I know what you mean and i guess you know my meaning or intent so we seem to be in accord. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Malaki Two questions pop to mind that every Master should answer (or a slave should answer in regards to their Master). 1) Have you ever acted – beaten someone - out of anger or rage? (This in no way refers to BDSM). No! That's one reason I have a punching bag as well as a pell in my yard (to work off anger). quote: 2) Do you hide and/or demand your slave hide your behavior from even those within the BDSM world because you are concerned it would be seen as abusive? Why should I? I accept full responcibility for all my actions. If I screw up I'll admit it and make due appologies if I deem necessary. quote: If the answer to either one is yes then perhaps you need to seek professional help. You are abusive – and not in a good way. To a large degree I agree. If you ending "and not in a good way" refers to consential abuse, then i agree completely. quote: Fairness??? Fairness has no place in this discussion. We are referring to domestic violence. There is nothing fair about domestic violence. What I see a fair, others may use differing terminology but I have already covered this with Rover in earlier posts. quote: As for the “Responsibilities of a Master”; I assumed everyone would know what this inferred. – YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF YOUR SLAVE! -. Safe, Sane and Consensual are terms repeatedly used within our lifestyle. It does differ with each Master but generally I agree. However I don't place much faith in SSC, which is what I use when explaining the lifestyle to vanilla folk. However practically I prefer RACK. It allows people to actually think and understand what they are doing and make informed decisions. (Just my opinion)

daddysprop247 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:11:53 PM)
and what of those D/s and M/s relationships where domestic violence (i.e. abuse) is something consented to or at least accepted? when i became a slave, i understood that to mean that my Master had the right to do absolutely whatever he pleased with me...which includes striking in anger, isolation from family/friends, breaking bones/blacking eyes, verbal battering, degradation, etc...things that for many would fall under the label of "abuse." my Master and i have no "contract"...there is no agreement written or unwritten that he must abide by, no code of conduct he must follow. some say, there is abuse, and there is D/s. well i don't think it's that boldly separated. abuse can very well be a part of D/s...is it "wrong" for abuse to be a part of D/s? that's not my place to say. i really do not think it's an issue of right and wrong, because we each define that for ourselves. some feel that abuse has a valid place in this lifestyle, some do not. there are some who come to this lifestyle who are nothing but predators seeking easy prey. and there are some Dominants in this lifestyle who abuse what is theirs...and imo that makes them no less true or real a Dominant. as far as helping submissives in bad relationships (bad meaning they wish to leave)...i'm divided on that one. on the one hand, i'm old fashioned and i believe in minding my own business and respecting the private dominion of a man and his woman. on the other hand, if i a submissives were to actually come to me asking for help...if she did not have her eyes open and had no idea what she was getting into and such treatment was a surprise to her...i would wish to help. as an aside, i agree with LordofDiscipline regarding SSC...from what i know of the term's history and original intent, i have absolutely no idea why it has become some sort of mantra for D/s relationships. it is not something my Master and i believe in or feel any obligation to adhere to.

devotionsweet -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:15:29 PM)
It's funny that when things evolve and morph into something that perhaps isn't what we want them to be, people get angry.... We have no control over others.... That being said, i have to admit being slightly skeptic about any male dominant being vocal right out of the blue. Not that it's ment as an attack, but it does make me wonder what you're going through, or what caused you to become upset over it. Past issues, maybe, who knows.... i do know that this is one of thoes times that, i'll stop lurking and actually say something. i often say there is a fine line between abuse and play, between abuse and dominance. The truth being that, it is more of an asshole problem then an i had no idea you didn't like chairs thrown at your head oblivious problem..... Bottom line being, now maybe i'm giving mankind more credit than what is deserved, if the person you are with cannot see the difference in saying no last night, and saying no the next morning in regaurds to whatever given situation in which you are being sincere, then there's a serious problem. If upon seeing this serious problem, you turn a blind eye as not to hurt his feelings or not wanting to get in trouble... then there's a REALLY serious problem.... Domestic abuse is beyond sad, especially within this lifestyle... the amount of trust that is basic here, becomes terribly exploited, and it almost seems as this topic grew into, hey i'm no abuser, i'm so much more of a nonabuser than you are rant, than being a serious discussion about a serious topic..... But we are all self absorbed so.... you know.... And yes, it did take a chair thrown at my head to learn and know better.....there is no cuteness in being abused, it didn't make him love me anymore, it didn't make me a better sub, it didn't do anything but question who i am, and sit silently feeling sorry for myself.... i imagine it didn't make him feel overly wonderful either.... but who knows...

petwolf22 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:22:59 PM)
daddysprop, may i ask, does all of that you listed include if he wished to kill you? does self-preservation kick in at any point?

Malaki -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:25:42 PM)
IronBear - We are so on the same wave length! If you ever make it to the states, let me know - drinks are on me! Daddysprop247 - Key word is what? CONSENTUAL! Devotionsweet - Thank you!

daddysprop247 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:31:37 PM)
Malaki...but what is not consentual? when a wife gives herself to her husband in marriage, has she then consented to whatever treatment he pleases, because she made that commitment of marriage? has a slave consented to any kind of treatment her Master pleases, because she gave herself to him in slavery? you see, that is the problem i have with trying to define abuse by consent. when two people are in a committed relationship, there is always consent somewhere.

darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:35:39 PM)
quote: As for the “Responsibilities of a Master”; I assumed everyone would know what this inferred. – YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF YOUR SLAVE! -. Safe, Sane and Consensual are terms repeatedly used within our lifestyle. Safe, sane and consensual is IMO - worthless. Safe and sane - who are you or anyone else to say what is safe or sane? This maybe so - but ultimately, It doesn't matter is a slave/sub/kajira/pet/baby has given over everything to a dominant. It doesn't matter if it has been consented at one time that the dominant is responsibel for the submissive/slave/kajira/pet/baby. These people still have the responsibility over themselves. Do not get me wrong, I have been with, sat with, spoken with, councilled with abuse victims. And you know what is blatently obvious? Do gooders. People who rant and rave and proclaim how dangerous the abusers are. How nasty they are. How a place should be reserved in hell for them thats 'special' - and you know what? Its all bull. Until the sub/slave/kajira/pet/baby/toy - or WHATEVER they are labelled as - take the moment of self realisation that they have the responsibility to WALK AWAY and that there are people who are here to help - it will always happen. Be it in BDSM, vanilla, marriages, partnerships, hetrosexual, gay, lesbien, bi, mixed race, mixed culture, mixed religon or whatever relationship. Abuse happens. Is it abuse because you say it is? No! It is abuse when the people involved, stop and take some self awareness to see that this isnt something they are prepared to put up with. Stop shouting about it and listen instead, because your claiming abuse isnt going to help. Being an example however, does. Peace and Love

petwolf22 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:42:32 PM)
so because she made that commitment of marriage (which may not be defined to her as physical/emotional abuse or infidelity), her husband is entitled to do as he wishes because she is bound by the marriage? By that same token, in this relationship, the wife should be entitled to do as she pleases, be it hit him, verbally abuse him, be unfaithful, etc. After all, he consented to the marriage as well. There is a difference, albeit hard to define, between abuse and what's been consented to. if someone decides to give me a black eye, or is unfaithful, or keeps me chained in the basement, unless its something i consented to in the context of the relationship, yes it is abuse (if nothing else of the relationship itself). Like i asked a question of you, is it consentual for him to kill you if he so chose? (And this would apply not only to you but to anyone else in a similar kind of relationship dynamic). you are certainly entitled to live your life how you choose, and i would never question why, to avoid pointless arguing, but isn't there a point where self preservation of your own life would kick in? At whatever point, be it the black eye for some or when they have a gun pointed at your head. people would of course, have different levels where this self preservation kicks in, but you can't go far past being dead.

Malaki -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:48:34 PM)
Petwolf22 - Your Master should be proud. Thank you for getting the point. I don't understand why this is apparently such a hard concept to grasp.

petwolf22 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:55:54 PM)
thank You Malaki.

darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 12:56:53 PM)
It isn't a hard concept to understand, however, you seem to be having difficulty accessing the point. If a person is in a relationship and their partner beats them and the beaten person says no, yet stays - then they are perpetuating consent. It is not your responsibilty to claim it is abuse because you are not involved. But teach, inform and be a positive role model. That person who is beaten will not leave until they are ready to give up their consent. People will abuse. But its not limited to BDSM, nor is it indicitive of BDSM. It occurs. Why shout about it instead of dealing with it? Have you suffered abuse? Abused someone ? You can answer yes to the latter. You have demonstrated it quite clearly here in this thread. But do you see it? Or do I, with that revelation, not have the right to choose your abuse for you? Peace and Love

petwolf22 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:05:30 PM)
ive noticed a great many of these discussions come down to semantics. i will myself try to generalize and refer to all kinds of relationships, not just those M/s (and all derivitives thereof). if a person is abused and they stay for fear for their lives or their children's, is that perpetuating consent? if they stay because they've been brainwashed to the point (once again, referring to in general) believing that cannot exist without the other person, is that perpetuating consent? i know that these days there are options for people in abusive relationships to help them get out, but sometimes its not that easy for them.

anopheles -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:12:01 PM)
quote: For me anyone that strikes out in anger is not a Dominant/Master or anthing resembling it. If you can't control yourself how can you control someone else? I wholeheartedly agree. Anger generates hurt, on BOTH sides. If your submissive feels that you are "out on control" then there is no way that you can rely on them to do what you want them to do, because they are genuinely afraid. If I came home everyday, after a hard, frustrating day at work (and I have a LOT of those), and kicked the living crap out of my dog, one of those days he's going to bite me. Same thing with a submissive/slave. You can't have the trust that a Master needs to be able to appropriately administer his/her submissive if you create that relationship dynamic. We are all in our lifestyle to gain satisfaction and acceptance, and our desire is to be with someone that will be satisfied with our actions, whether you be Dominant or submissive. Maybe there are Dominants that don't crave the pleasing looks of their submissives, whether they be tied to the bed flogged or kneeling comfortably at your feet, but I don't know any of those. Are there those that enjoy a look genuine hurt on a submissive? When we cross the line, where one person decides that there is no regard for the other, IMHO then we enter the realm of "abuse". I place my satisfaction in my authority. I constantly think about what will challenge my Luvdragon, and also what will please her, and cause her to give me the look of satisfaction, which is my desire. I have expectations that she do as I ask her to do. I don't desire to punish her, but I have no problem with doing so, if the situation warrants. When I no longer care about gaining that look, then I think I would just be abusing her, and as a Dominant, it would be my duty to simply let her go, so she could find someone that would do a better job than I could. --Anopheles

LordODiscipline -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:12:09 PM)
Understood... Apparently people who have a philisophical differentiation are 'abusers' - even for someone in a "edgy" a relational dynamic as yourself... Control----------------------0 Character Assassination-----1 "What is left when honor is perished?" ~Pubius Syrus ~J

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