RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse?

RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (Full Version)

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thetammyjo -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 12:03:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 Malaki, by the very definition of the Master/slave relationship, hasn't a slave given blanket consent to whatever treatment the Master desires, just by the fact of giving herself to him in slavery? once you are property, the issue of consent is moot imo. but with M/s relationships aside...one can indeed "consent" to abuse, such as consenting to be burned alive, to be pimped out to strangers, to absolutely anything one can imagine. the fact that there was consent does not change the fact that (by definition) the acts were abusive. I'm not Malaki but I'm going to comment anyway. Agreeing to be someone's slave should, in my opinion, involve serious thought and evaluation. This is quite different than being bought in a market in Rome -- the idea and definition of slavery as property is therefore quite different. Also we treat non-animate and animate property very differently, do we not? Which category is the consensual slave in? We also do not live in a world where our lifestyles or playstyles are supported by a government. If a slave in our world choses to leave, who can really stop them without committing crime and risking arrest or public ridicule? Even in societies were slavery was supported there were laws and social rules about what was abuse and what was within the owner's right. My entire point is that equating property with totally freedom to do whatever has never, within my historical and social knowledge, been true. There are always limits of some sort. Within the consensual slavery world that some of us here are part of, those limits are decided upon by the people entering into the M/s relationship and to a degree we may not like also by the society and legal system in which we live.

thetammyjo -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 12:09:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anopheles Are there those that enjoy a look genuine hurt on a submissive? --Anopheles I do but these requires context, that I think daddysprop has brought up. I can be turned on a boy/man who looks very hurt, very wounded..... but not because of me. I get turned onto the idea of taking that person and helping them grow, helping them realize that consensual slavery can be a beautiful not a destructive thing. Yes, sadly I am attracted to those "wounded puppies". Nice fantasy -- have learned to not fall for them in real life unless they are already working on improving and are fairly grounded. So I guess that makes me more "knight" than a sadist but yes, I do like hurting my slave too, just not to the point of damaged anything (heart, body, trust, etc).

Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 12:25:53 PM)
Brightest Blessings Gem, I enjoyed your post and really like the way you describe your relationship. However, some of it is completely untrue regarding the OP. There are so many similarities in our ideals, it is disappointing that they are not recognized or understood. You wrote: “I live in a consentual non-con which basically means that I consented once, it is not ongoing consent, there are many things in my relationship that if I had to consent to on an on-going basis I probably wouldn't. The OP would consider this abuse I consider it a wonderful and freeing way to live.” THE OP DOES NOT CONSIDER THIS ABUSE – He lives His life this way as well. Also, you wrote: ”We play with anger all the time, in fact we have given demos on anger scenes, again the OP would consider this abuse and further more teaching and spreading abuse.” THE OP DOES NOT CONSIDER THIS ABUSE / TEACHING ABUSE OR SPREADING ABUSE – He plays in anger as well. Obviously this topic was entirely to ______________ to post. Many people would view my relationship as abusive as well. It isn’t. auralise

Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 1:37:27 PM)
Greetings Mistress Melissa, Master and i are new into Gorean lifestyle - we have been looking into it for about 3 months. Thus far we are an eclectic blend of BDSM - like many others. We take bits and parts of what works for us and blend them all together to make our 24/7 lifestyle. Yes, Gorean is something we are heavily studying now - big time over the last week. Yes, i know that i was very outspoken in my words last night - or more accurately stated, 'extremely rude' is how i see it. Yes, many others were as well - ALL DAY LONG. Master took about 60 posts yesterday basically saying / accusing Him of believing in ways He does NOT believe. Somehow nearly everytime He read a post yesterday it was written from a poster stating He had said things He never said - or that He believes in ways He does not believe. For me this was very frustrating and hurtful. Yes i was upset, and frustrated. i am human and it does happen. i know my actions were not becoming - being new does not excuse my actions, nor do i expect it to. Master will deal with me however he sees fit and i know and except this. However, i am very protective of my Master. i have much to learn about keeping my emotions at bay when i feel as though He has been repeatedly attacked. This is why i asked if others felt if they had been attacked and that is why their posts were worded the way they were. i have always been very protective over those i love. Somehow, this protectiveness is multiplied when it comes to Him. i wrote what i wrote in hopes to get everyone on my ass and off of His. He doesnt need my protection - it simply comes with my love. This is an issue He and i will work through - i have been a realtime slave for 5 weeks. i was an on-line slave-in-training starting April 28 of this year. Yes, You are correct in that i have much to learn. Master is very strict - i am sure when he reads what i wrote i will know his wrath. i am not a perfect slave - i am 5 weeks in. But You are correct by calling my rudeness out. auralise

Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 1:42:46 PM)
Greetings sunshine, This was a beautiful read - from beginning to end. Blessed be, auralise

darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 2:24:04 PM)
m'Lord IronBear - A single gesture of acknowledgement that you offer is worth a thousands blessings from one less worthy - I am forever in awe. Thank You for being such a blessing. Ach, and now I gush...[:)] Auralise quote: However, i am very protective of my Master. i have much to learn about keeping my emotions at bay when i feel as though He has been repeatedly attacked. This is why i asked if others felt if they had been attacked and that is why their posts were worded the way they were. i have always been very protective over those i love. Somehow, this protectiveness is multiplied when it comes to Him. i wrote what i wrote in hopes to get everyone on my ass and off of His. He doesnt need my protection - it simply comes with my love. It is wonderful that your loyalty to your Master is so obvious. However, I saw no attacks, no ridicule on Him at all from what I have understood on this post. In the same response, there was no attack by Him to anyone. An original thought was placed across -a view, a rant... something He is entitled to do, just as othrs are entitled to respond with their views - and if they do not meld or crossover, that is not an attack - but a well thought out meaningful discussion. If you place your words on a screen, on a board, in a book or out into the general public then you have to expect a response. Even ones you may not like. I am sure in the time He and yourself have spent here, I am sure you have both been witness to various 'flames' and personal insults. But treating words with ridicule or taking them too personally is only submitting to the feelings of anger and fear - and on a thread about abuse, is there not a hint of subtle irony there?[;)] Well met Auralise - may your journey be fruitful and your path be long with He Whom commands you. Much Peace and Love

MistressMelissa -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 3:00:35 PM)
Thank you auralise, I wish you well in your journey. I often find what I believe I said in my writings get taken in totally different light. When we read something we filter it through what our experiences have been. Sometimes this puts a new slant on things. Some are gifted with words, the rest of us make do. Be Well,

pinkpleasures -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/4/2005 10:54:51 AM)
quote: It seems as though many persons that are actually guilty of Domestic Violence join our lifestyle in order to get a free pass to do as they wish under the self-proclaimed title of Master or Dom. These self-professed “Masters” seem to misunderstand the meaning and responsibility of a Master to his (or her) slave. These animals seem to have found a niche for themselves in the BDSM world specifically to make it easier for themselves to have and abuse a mate with little or no recourse. Those in the “vanilla” world may look at many of us and see us as odd at best and abusive at worst. Some in the lifestyle know the difference between an abusive relationship a/k/a domestic violence to that of discipline/ punishment between a Master / Dom and his slave/ sub. But what of those newer to the lifestyle that don’t comprehend the difference between the two and endure years of abuse in order to be true to their soul’s calling as a submissive or slave? There should be a special room reserved in hell for these bastards. Malaki i could not agree more. pinkpleasures

pinkpleasures -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/4/2005 11:18:41 AM)
quote: Iron Bear - See that is the issue... I have been accused of "abuse" by people who claim to be in the same "lifestyle" I am, simply because what I did "squicked them". And, we are "assuming" upon the author of this rant to infer that much upon his writing - therefore the request for information about what 'is' and 'is not' abuse in his eyes. Also, I did not 'sign up' for anything - so, the vapid renderings of those two authors/articles you mentioned are not ordained as inherent in any relational dynamic I am a part of.... there was never a proper vote on it where I was apprised of the resultants I find it most interesting (in a sub-culture that is considered an anathema to the 'norm') that people adopt such grand manifestos without any real or critical consideration of their content... Anyhow, that is 'my' rant... for the morning... Now I will see if the author shall reply. ~J aka LordofDiscipline (in reply to IronBear) Report \| Post #: 4 quote: RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? - 10/2/2005 4:56:38 AM Many have said my relationship is abusive, why? mainly because that is not how they conducted their relationship, and so because they were seeing my relationship thru their eyes instead IronBear i frankly think this continuing debate about whether there are domestic violence violators among the Doms and Masters claiming membership here is a bit "who shot John". If she ends up needing care in the ER; if You break bones; if she is peeing blood; You are abusive. pinkpleasures

Malaki -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/4/2005 6:07:02 PM)
I appreciate all those that responded, whether I understood your views and where you were going with your responses or not. Several of you gave me points to consider that I unfortunetely hadn't. Thank you all. MistressMelissa - You are correct - it starts in the home. As for the crusade, well, I may have the white knight syndrome but my armor is entirely to battered and rusted for crusading. -A side note: I like your web site, you bring up several things I am still learning and/ or working on. MM

LadiesBladewing -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/4/2005 7:04:27 PM)
Abuse is not difficult to define. It is any act in which both partners are not willing participants, or at least willing to consider participation. At the point at which one person says "no" any action that is continued in the same vein is abuse. To clarify, I am not talking about roleplay here, such as play-rape scenes where it is usual that some adjustment has been made to allow for the use of denial to enhance the roleplay--I'm also not talking about "I don't want to do the dishes" type stuff constituting "saying no". Common sense should be sufficient to understand when "no" means no and "stop" means stop or a suitable faxcimile. In the same way, responsibility is -not- difficult to define. It is the act of assuring that one's living property, whether that property is a beloved bird, a treasured snake or a cherished slave, is properly cared for--clothed, fed, nurtured, trained, protected, etc. Each of us has a conscience. For some of us, our conscience is more vocal than it is for others. May each of us be blessed with companions who have a strong and vocal conscience and a healthy dose of "uncommon sense". Lady Zephyr quote: ORIGINAL: WickedKev Abuse is such a genral term, and like all terms means differant things to differant people. For me anyone that strikes out in anger is not a Dominant/Master or anthing resembling it. If you can't control yourself how can you control someone else? A qliche'? Maybe but a very valid one.

leatherorlace -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/9/2005 2:28:43 AM)
Thinking that the sociopath and psychotics in the general populace have a conscience that they recognize or care about is a faulty assumption.

ExistentialSteel -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/9/2005 3:51:56 AM)
Malaki, I know how seemingly, straight ahead posts as yours can be dissected ad nausea on this board. As a newcomer to posting here, that has happened to me. The original point is lost and the semantics take over. That being said, there are aspects of your posts that I don’t agree with. If you had defined abuse better in your original post you may have prevented some of the disagreements. Later, in an attempt to clarify, you described it as broken bones and teeth knocked out, although, you said if those events were consensual, you would be okay with that activity. See, I would argue that a sub allowing her bones to be broken was mentally incompetent and that would be abuse to me…something you would apparently allow. This gets off the original point though. One of your definitions of abuse was punishing in anger. That is pretty general. Anger can manifest in different ways. If a Master is mad and punishes severely is he abusing ? What if he punishes way beyond an objective penalty, but remains calm when he does it. He is mad, but calm. There are so many implications of a Master punishing in “anger.” Honestly, many D/s relationships are centered around fast and sure punishment when the sub angers her Master. It is not veiled in ritualism at all. He may curse her, slap her, whip her with his belt quickly until he leaves bad bruises and so on. It is anger punishment, but then again, it is in control. He doesn’t beat her with his fists or a baseball bat. Those couples understand that it is part of the relationship and seem to do well to me. All I’m saying, is that what looks like abuse to an outsider may not be. This point agrees with your thoughts about consensualism actually. These couples understand how their relationship works and agree to it. Lastly, most Doms are, in fact, viewed as abusers by the vanilla community. That makes me wary of calling anyone else an abuser.

SirSix72 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/9/2005 10:50:12 AM)
Well said Rover I couldnt agree with you more. Master Six

JustaTop -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/9/2005 11:09:25 AM)
One girl's abuser is another's angel. Let me put it this way,as a matter of perspective..Maybe there is a girl out there with strange kinks and desires. No common man will do what turns her on,she's searched for years and years,no luck.....(say she likes something extreme. Like being forced into diapers,and caged,with only a hamster bottle of water for company for half a day or so..It makes her feel totally out of control-which she simply adores.) Now I dare say that the vast majority ,even here, would find that horribly disgusting and humiliating-(and remember this scene involves no sm that is going to do any damage-and any of the rest,a shower will take care of) if he did it to a vanilla woman that didn't WANT it-he'd face some pretty severe charges over it. But to HER,this guy is her absolute dream,because he WILL give her what she wants, and needs. So this is really quite subjective,is it not? Now let's leave the straw man arguments about grevous bodily injury out of this. No sane Man is going to break a fun toy that complies well with his needs-it would be stupid and counterproductive. And he is going to also realize that the legal consequences of doing such harm may well ruin his life. So the real question here might be-why are you so keen to see "abuse" everywhere you look? Isn't it really up to the parties involved to decide if it is,or is not? And this was addressed to the op,not you SIX.)[;)]

KittenWithaTwist -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/9/2005 12:19:43 PM)
I know I'm late on this topic, but thank you for this post. I utterly and completely agree. The old adage that a dominant cannot control until he controls himself is bullshit. We're all human beings. We may spend our entire lives searching for enlightenment, self reliance, and control over ourselves. Personally, I wouldn't want to go through that soul searching process without the love of a submissive partner (let alone without my dominant one :P ).

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