RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (Full Version)

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devotionsweet -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:12:15 PM)

agreed....
petwolf that is probably the most insightful comment yet.
it's not just as easy as walking out the door, certianly not.
Especially when you have no idea what's on the other side, it's easy to dish out the advice, but being the person who has to act is much harder



devotionsweet -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:17:58 PM)

*Apparently people who have a philisophical differentiation are 'abusers' - even for someone in a "edgy" a relational dynamic as yourself... *
LordOfDisciplin,
i don't think anyone said that....... This is exactly why communication is key, if you go into something with eyes wide open, that's one thing, that's why i think at some point a contract is wonderful, not so much in a binding sense, we can debate that one all day, but more over in a you know EXACTLY what you are getting..... and hopefully abuse isn't one of thoes things....
i think you feel this is more of a personal judgement on yourself than it is...

back to that whole self absorbing nature of humans.....




daddysprop247 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:19:44 PM)

petwolf, i raised the questions i did because consent is such a sticky issue. within the confines of a committed relationship (be it marriage, boyf/girlf, Master/slave, whatever), what is consent, and what is not? i don't have those answers, but because Malaki raised this topic, i was hoping he would.

you say, unless it's something you consented to in the context of the relationship, it is abuse...but what DOES a person consent to in the context of a relationship? are lists exchanged, "i consent to a, b, c but not x, y, z"? i guess i just don't see it being so clearcut. which is why i choose not to look at consent in defining what is and isn't abuse. rather, i look at intent. is the intent to damage, to cause irreparable harm, to belittle?? if yes, then that would be abuse by my definition. however, just because abuse exists within a relationship, D/s or vanilla, that is not enough for me to label that relationship as "wrong", or something that the abused must be rescued from.

you mentioned a self-preservation instinct (another topic in itself). my submission is my self-preservation instinct. there is no instinct within me that would involve fleeing him or fighting him under any circumstances...and if there were, it'd make little difference.

can my Master take my life? yes, within the context of our relationship, he has that right. would he? doubtful. does he abuse me at times? if i were to be honest, yes. but is anything "wrong'' with that? imo, no. i came into this relationship with my eyes open, with the understanding that anything could happen and there would be no turning back. and still, i chose to make that commitment. just as a wife in certain cultures gives herself to her husband in marriage, with that same understanding, that same realization that anything could happen and that there would be no walking away. of course in our western culture, few see marriage that way anymore. but i tend to have the view of "you made your bed (you agreed to become his wife, or his slave, or whatever), you lie in it." it's not as cold as it sounds...i am a woman after all, and my heart aches for any and every sister of mine who suffers abuse in her relationship. but, that is something you must accept as a possibility before getting into any committed relationship. if it's not something you can accept, then you better make sure that the one you give yourself to is incapable of such things. and if you make a mistake? well, my heart will ache for you, but that is life. if one were to come to me for help i'd do what i could, but i certainly would not take it upon myself to rescue someone from what i thought was an abusive situation, nor would i automatically condemn the relationship as something broken or untrue simply because abuse was present.

i don't think it's about what's abuse or what isn't abuse, i think it's about what you can and cannot accept. some can accept an abusive situation, others cannot. and if you are one of those who cannot, choose wisely.



darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:23:52 PM)

Where are the semantics?

What is abuse?

I see yourself abusing someone because they do not agree with your view, so therefore by the reasoning set before, you should be seeking professional help. A personal disagreement is a disagreement - and personal attack is abuse. No semantics there.

Peace and Love

the 'yourself' is generic... not aimed at particulars, despite the linkage.



petwolf22 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:34:22 PM)

i personally wasn't attacking anyone...if that is how she chooses to live her life that is fine. i was curious on the question of if he holds her life in his hands (literally), and i certainly would never wish for him to exercise that right, but i wonder how someone would ultimately react in that situation, slave or otherwise?

intent is an interesting concept, and perhaps one that isn't explained so much in your posts, daddysprop, which may be why people are quicker to judge your relationship more negatively. you don't explain that that isn't his intent. If his intent isn't
"to damage, to cause irreparable harm, to belittle", then yes, things may be different, and the abuse may not be something the abusee needs "rescuing" from.

So what about when a sig other doesn't consider their abuse damaging, causing harm, or belittling? Is it up for them to decide, especially in the context of an M/s relationship?



luvdragonx -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:36:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

As for the “Responsibilities of a Master”; I assumed everyone would know what this inferred. – YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF YOUR SLAVE! -. Safe, Sane and Consensual are terms repeatedly used within our lifestyle.


Safe, sane and consensual is IMO - worthless. Safe and sane - who are you or anyone else to say what is safe or sane?

This maybe so - but ultimately, It doesn't matter is a slave/sub/kajira/pet/baby has given over everything to a dominant. It doesn't matter if it has been consented at one time that the dominant is responsibel for the submissive/slave/kajira/pet/baby. These people still have the responsibility over themselves.

Do not get me wrong, I have been with, sat with, spoken with, councilled with abuse victims. And you know what is blatently obvious? Do gooders. People who rant and rave and proclaim how dangerous the abusers are. How nasty they are. How a place should be reserved in hell for them thats 'special' - and you know what? Its all bull. Until the sub/slave/kajira/pet/baby/toy - or WHATEVER they are labelled as - take the moment of self realisation that they have the responsibility to WALK AWAY and that there are people who are here to help - it will always happen. Be it in BDSM, vanilla, marriages, partnerships, hetrosexual, gay, lesbien, bi, mixed race, mixed culture, mixed religon or whatever relationship.

Abuse happens. Is it abuse because you say it is? No! It is abuse when the people involved, stop and take some self awareness to see that this isnt something they are prepared to put up with. Stop shouting about it and listen instead, because your claiming abuse isnt going to help. Being an example however, does.

Peace and Love


Ah, dark-angel, we can always count on you to bring this point to the forefront - thank you.

I too believe that you can only take the Abuser/Victim roles so far before they break down. Abuse me once - shame on you. Abuse me twice - lemme think about it. Abuse me 75 times.....why am I still here?

I understand quite well the mindset some abused people have. So I also know that until the one being abused decides to end it, he/she will be a 'victim' indefinitely. Consent is the key word in all of this. If I haven't given you consent to kick my ass, then you don't have the right to do it. Now, if I stick around and let you do it again, that non-consent issue gets a little more fuzzy.

Nearly everything about interpersonal relationships is subjective to the perceptions of the people involved. That means that until one or both of them tell you 'X, Y, Z is happening', you can only guess. Do you think someone (an adult) is being abused? Maybe you do, but until that someone can say to you 'I don't want to put up with this anymore', there isn't much you can do to help. There's plenty you can do to harm though. Let's say you decided to be a good samaritan and let this 'abuse victim' in on her peril, tell her what a bad situation she's in, that she shouldn't put up with it, and her 'abuser' is a low-life and should rot in hell. Any number of things could happen.

1. She could cuss you out and tell you to mind your own business, she's happy and getting everything she wants and never to speak to her again. Nice going.
2. She could get confused in a new situation and confront her 'abuser' with the enlightenment you've given her. If he's really nuts, he could kill her. And you. Good job.
3. If he's a decent guy, he's just lost the trust of his girl, thanks to you, and their relationship is now in jeopardy. Awesome.
4. She could decide that you're right - how could she have been so blind? - and decide to take matters into her own hands. As you see her being arrested on the news-for shooting him in his sleep - she says 'But so and so told me that he was abusive, he was going to kill me!!!'

Okay, those are some pretty extreme scenarios. But can you be sure that they wouldn't happen? If you are, you'd best be doubly sure about the situation of abuse. If you are concerned for someone, the best and most helpful thing you can do is make sure you are available to help WHEN IT IS ASKED FOR. If it's as simple as twice monthly phone calls or emails, just to say " hi, how's it going, just wanna make sure you're okay." Believe me, people who are in situations that they want to get out of will remember those who genuinely seem interested in their well being and they will come to you if you are honest and consistent.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:49:19 PM)

petwolf, i was trying to say that i define abuse by intent, rather than consent. intent to cause irreparable harm, intent to damage, intent to belittle, etc. when that intent is there, then that is abuse by my definition. as i admitted, yes at times my Master does abuse me. which means that obviously he had the intentions mentioned above. but that's neither here nor there, since as i said, the presence of abuse within a relationship is not enough for me to label it as wrong or something that one needs rescuing from.

i do not believe that abuse has no place in ANY relationship. i view it as a not-so-pretty fact of life, something that some can bear and some cannot, which is why i stress caution and choosing wisely when finding a lifetime/serious partner. abuse is something one, especially a submissive, needs to accept as a possibility in life, particularly if they are seeking a M/s relationship. if they feel abuse is not something they could accept, not something they could bear, then they had better proceed with caution and make sure they know their prospective partner as well as they can, before making any final commitments, be that marriage or slavery.



darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:52:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: petwolf22

i personally wasn't attacking anyone...if that is how she chooses to live her life that is fine. i was curious on the question of if he holds her life in his hands (literally), and i certainly would never wish for him to exercise that right, but i wonder how someone would ultimately react in that situation, slave or otherwise?


IYO. However, others may view it differently, that is the whole point. Not semantics at all.


quote:

So what about when a sig other doesn't consider their abuse damaging, causing harm, or belittling? Is it up for them to decide, especially in the context of an M/s relationship?


It is up to the individual on the receiving end. Of course its up to them? What should happen - people controling other peoples lives because its abuse in their eyes? It isnt up to you or I - but the individual in any realtionship, not just Ms. If you make that choice for them, if your forcing them to leave something they dont consider is abuse the your control, or trying to control is no better than the abuse they are receiving.

Peace and Love



petwolf22 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 1:57:34 PM)

i'll respectfully retract my statement, daddysprop, since i have very different opinions about this and it would be better to stay silent than to come across as judgmental.

angel, what i meant was this entire thing seems to come down to how different people define abuse (and its appropriateness) and how they define their relationship with the other person. my other point was that for relationships similar to daddysprop's, it doesn't seem to be up to the other person to define how that abuse is affecting them.

Coming down to how each person defines it just seems to be a common conclusion on the boards.



darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 2:04:54 PM)

Everyone has their own definitions and are working on their own wavelength. Be it boards like this one or BDSM or any relationship/place or time.

The important thing is that people do not push their definitons on others and that people respect each others definitons if it isn't invading their space. If people are to move on, they will do so at their own pace. And from everybody else? No told you sos, no warnings it would happen - just acceptance and love.

Peace and Love



Malaki -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 2:11:09 PM)

Exactly.............. abuse comes down to those within the relationship - CONSENTUALLY decided. But I believe I've stated that repeatedly.

If a slave has agreed that the Master may beat her until breaking bones on repeated occasions then, no, I don't consider it abuse. Though the authorities most definitely would. However, if said slave hadn't consented to the breaking of bones and had had them broken on numerous occasions by her Master then, DUH, it is abuse. NO CONSENT!

Whether that individual can remove themselves, safely, from the relationship is another matter. I understand it is sometimes extremely difficult to leave especially if they fear for their or their childrens lives. But, out of self preservation, they should stand up for themselves and/or their children and leave.




petwolf22 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 2:18:46 PM)

most certainly they *should* leave, Malaki. i was just trying to figure out how them not leaving under those circumstances would be "perpetuating consent". To me that's like saying gee, they're unconscious and thus not telling me no...that's certainly not consent.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 2:23:55 PM)

Malaki, by the very definition of the Master/slave relationship, hasn't a slave given blanket consent to whatever treatment the Master desires, just by the fact of giving herself to him in slavery? once you are property, the issue of consent is moot imo. but with M/s relationships aside...one can indeed "consent" to abuse, such as consenting to be burned alive, to be pimped out to strangers, to absolutely anything one can imagine. the fact that there was consent does not change the fact that (by definition) the acts were abusive.

but petwolf made a good point...everyone is going to define what is and isn't abuse differently, and everyone is going to have a different opinion as to whether or not the presence of abuse signifies a problem in the relationship. some define abuse by acts, some define it by consent, some define it by intent...some feel that one who is abused should leave the abusive relationship...some don't. but i do think most of us have at least one small thing in common...we care about those who are suffering, and we would be there to help in whatever small way we could if someone who was abused asked it of us....whether or not we agreed with that person's beliefs or how they went about things.



darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 3:25:15 PM)

quote:

If a slave has agreed that the Master may beat her until breaking bones on repeated occasions then, no, I don't consider it abuse. Though the authorities most definitely would.

That depends upon the state or country one lives in. Harsh but true that many autorities do not consider such abuse as processable.

quote:

However, if said slave hadn't consented to the breaking of bones and had had them broken on numerous occasions by her Master then, DUH, it is abuse. NO CONSENT!


Until the sub/slave/kajira/pet/baby/toy leaves - then she is consenting. Saying no doens't just end it. Saying 'i didn't consent' means nothing and is empty in any relationship if you stay? What kind of message doe is send out? We are not talking about people forced to stay against their will or raped just for dressing a certain way. We are talking about a consensual relationship, usually longterm. Not a one night play date - or are some of us misreading the statement?

Peace and Love



darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 3:32:48 PM)

quote:

most certainly they *should* leave, Malaki. i was just trying to figure out how them not leaving under those circumstances would be "perpetuating consent". To me that's like saying gee, they're unconscious and thus not telling me no...that's certainly not consent.


By not leaving, one consents to endure that which they know they will recieve. Theres no unconscious act. People are sntient. They think. Even someone brainwashed thinks. They may not think how you would like, or how you think they should - but they still have thought - conscious thought. You can't hope to rescue them, or expect them to not consent just because their bones are broken, or their flesh, cut. Suicide isn't a good response, but it is still a concious and thought out result to a situation. Sometimes people leave. Sometimes they do not. But its when they realise they have that power and that they are responsible for their own actions, that they can walk away from something they term abuse.

BTW I have seen forced deprogramming of an individual considered brainwashed - and it ISNT a pretty sight to experience and is also a form of abuse IMO. And in the long run, it cause only more damage.

Peace and Love



LordODiscipline -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 3:37:23 PM)

Actually it was inferred from the "non-response to a direct question.

Rather a cute manuver, but less than disingenuous and definitively insulting.

Not even an 'off band' response - rather without spine[;)]

~J



wantinaSireorSir -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 4:20:17 PM)

Good Rant


I have had some ask me or try to tell me if my realtionship is abusive since I do bruise easy. I have to admit for all here i love it when it hurts.

[;)][:D]
wantinaSireorSir



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 6:31:23 PM)


quote:


I wholeheartedly agree. Anger generates hurt, on BOTH sides. If your submissive feels that you are "out on control" then there is no way that you can rely on them to do what you want them to do, because they are genuinely afraid.

BUT many people DO play in anger, they use the primal energy in a very good way to work through things in scenes. I don't recommend it for newbies, but playing in anger can be a very good and satisfying thing.

quote:


Are there those that enjoy a look genuine hurt on a submissive?

Yes, there are those sadists out there. They might genuinely love someone, but part of them WILL be geuinely satisfied and turned on and very much pleased by ACTUAL pain in the other person.



Detmastered -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 7:40:21 PM)

This takes me back to when I was dumb 19 year old kid just out of Airborne. I felt it was my duty to stand up and defend what was right anywhere anytime any place.

I sat drinking a beer in a small town bar and overheard a woman complaining. The guy with her turned to face her and with a stone cold look said "I’m gonna beat the hell out of you when we get home". As pulled her spinning her off her stool I looked over and said "You won't hurt her as long as I am around."

Then I was completely floored, the woman started yelling at me. Later that night when I walked out of the bar I just came to the realization that you have no idea what is going on in someone's life unless you’re walking in there shoes.

Who knows the woman in the story might have been in the lifestyle and happy. She might have been abused but not ready to give it up. I have no idea.

I know now I had no right to step into there life the way I did. Will I stand up for someone who asks for help? Hell yes always every time. Think back I am sure most of you have seen a time when someone came to you asking for help, and ended up the bad guy, I know I have. The worse part is you stand up to protect someone and they turn 180. Right back where they started of there own free will.

Lets be honest most people can't be 100% sure why they do the things they do, so how in the world do you think you can look at there actions and make assumptions on motive. Abuse is a terrible thing, but one couples abuse may be another couple’s special moment.

You can't know someone else’s motive all we can do is judge there actions. Who wants to be the judge?




IronBear -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 8:30:14 PM)

dark Angel made one comment which I agree with andit sticks in my mind as I read the posts. In effect what she said was "With abuse, the biggest problem are Do Gooders". The reality is, we never reaklly know whatiother people are prepared to put up with. One of the greatest dangers in society today are the exptree right wing do gooders who are determined to force their idology onto others. Many of you have seen this with religious groops who get in your face and starty being abusive if you disagree. I used to find that Sunday Morings in the middle of a good fuck, some religious group would be knocking on my door to "convert" me. Any cop will tell you, that the situation they dislike the most which is also the most frustrating is domestic violence. Like Dark Angel, I too have spend hour upon hour in counselling sessions with abused women, kids and families. If nothing else, this thread had deminstrated how many of us see abuse differently and shown the difficulties in dealing with it without specifics of a single case which should then be what is discussed. What did appeal to me was how many folk sat and gave their concepts of the subject with out becomming abusive. That made the thread both an enjoyable read as well as being informative.




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