RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (Full Version)

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felineone -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 8:45:41 PM)

i agree with Malki.
IronBear, You have some great insight on this subject.

abuse can be difficult to define, especially in the lifestyle, but i'll tell you this. you'll know the difference if it ever happens to you.
anything done in anger that is harmful can be considered abuse. if someone strikes out in anger, they have lost control, and it is no longer consensual.
also a submissive has so many other issues to consider when faced with a situation like this.
this lifestyle gets enough bad publicity, calling the cops is something that would not happen as quickly.

consensual is the key here.

be careful judging peoples questions . this may be the only safe place one has to look for answers.

i also know that it is a fear many Dominants have. to be falsly accused can ruin a reputation.

no one can define abuse. most likely, there are only 2 people who know the truth in any situation.

marks do not prove abuse, nor does the lack of them prove it isn't happening.



Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 8:48:41 PM)

Hello A/all. I just have a couple of questions for all those that responded to the OP. They are:

Did anyone take the OP as a direct assult on the way they live their BDSM lives / did you feel you were being judged?

Did anyone assume the OP to claim in any way that practicing BDSM is domestic violence??? (clears throat . . . ummmm, consensual of course does not apply)

Did anyone read the OP??? LOL!

auralise



felineone -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 8:55:57 PM)

Auralise;

so you think this is funny???

get a grip.
maybe the thread wandered a bit.
that usually happens in discussions.



Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 8:59:51 PM)

Holy shit - count them folks! We have not one, not two, but three - yes, folks, three able minds aboard this party train!!!

Thank You to IronBear, petwolf22 and felineone who have the capacity for abstract thought mixed with a dash of reality. Nice to see.

Somehow along the line this topic was twisted and turned into everything it NEVER was, out of what one can only assume to be defensiveness, fear and the need to seem 'deep.' Ya-da ya-da ya-da. Not uncommon on a Yahoo site - quite the surprise (to this stellar degree) here.

Master, the next time you do this can we make it a Monday . . . too much idiocy for the weekend. i prefer save the loonacy for the work week when one expects it. Blind-sided on a Sunday! What the f&#@!

Your subservient pain slut, auralise (im waiting)



EvilGeoff -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 9:58:39 PM)

What's abuse, what's not abuse.... Not sure I can put a concrete definition of it up. Being a cop for 17 years though, I can tell you I saw a lot of it.

Emotional abuse, physical abuse, spiritual abuse, the whole spectrum of it.

While some here have posted that those who stay in abusive relations are giving defacto consent to the abuse, I would have to disagree. Even though as a cop I was very familiar with the "It's Saturday night, 11pm... We'll be at the Murphy's in 20 minutes... " routine, and I would get frustrated as all hell with Mrs Murphy for not packing up and getting the hell out of the relationship, I don't think for one minute I felt that she was consenting to the abuse. Tolerating it, perhaps, but consenting to it? No.

Folks, it is very possible for someone to be in such a mental, emotional and spiritual state that they simply do not have the capacity to leave. They truly believe in their hearts and minds that their situation is the only option they have, that all other options are worse than the place they are. Cut off, alone, without friends, family, or support, they are overwhelmed and in a place where clear, rational thought simply doesn't occur. That place is not an easy one to get out of but it can and frequently does get created over time, slowly, surely, and forged with chains far stronger than any made of steel. Intervention from an outside presence is frequently the only way to stop the cycle.

Ever hear of "til death us do part."? Some people take that vow literally. That does NOT mean they are consenting to abuse by their spouse.

Abuse, like rape, robbery, burglary or any other crime, is never the fault of the one who has to suffer through it. Abuse, like rape, is ALWAYS the responsibility of the perpetrator. The one ACTING in this case is the one responsible. If you believe otherwise, if you believe that the victim of abuse, or rape, or any other kind of crime is somehow at fault, or responsible for the conduct of another human being, we will have to agree to disagree.

And I ververently wish that you are not the victim of the criminal act of another person, and then have to listen to others tell you that you were at fault because you chose to wear something, or say something, or go someplace... that you "should have known better"... that "it was your own damn fault for going there... " etc.

It's easy to blame the victim. It's a great way to shift responsibility from where it belongs, on the perpetrator. And we live in a society that thrives on shifting blame and avoiding responsibility.

I'm not talking about consentual SM, I'm not talking about M/s or D/s, I'm talking about things done with the intent to harm or injure, to cause serious damage. I'm talking about saying things designed to tear down the mind and heart and soul. I'm talking about things done deliberately, or done in the heat of anger, done while out of control or with cold calculating calm....

What seperates abuse from what we do? Consent is one factor, being of the mind, heart and emotional soundness to WITHDRAW that consent is another. If someone is not emotionally, mentally, or spiritually able to withdraw consent, then they are not emotionally, mentally, or spiritually able to give consent either. And anything harmful done to them in that state could, and probably should, be considered abuse.

And that's enough of my opinions for one night!

*chucking a couple of pennies in the jar....*

YIK,
- Geoff



Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 10:00:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: felineone

Auralise;

so you think this is funny???

get a grip.
maybe the thread wandered a bit.
that usually happens in discussions.


Hi felineone,

Actually, i do believe this has become quite comical. Though at various times throughout the day 'comical' would not have been my word of choice. It now, however, is.

Maybe? Maybe the thread wandered a bit??? The thread was never on topic - for a thread to 'wander' off, it first must have been on topic of the OP post topic.

At some point in life, we must laugh. This is my point - and yes, i am laughing. It was a really good topic - a serious one. However, the topic wasn't discussed. It went into several off-topic rants about why BDSM play may be considered domestic violence / abuse. That was never the topic in the original post - but that is the only topic being discussed. And no matter how many times or in how many ways clarification was tried, it never stuck. Thus, it was never discussed - it never had the chance to wander.

Just a shame, thats all.

auralise





Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 10:05:29 PM)

Greetings EvilGeoff,

Very nice write and read . . . great insight.

Blessings,

auralise



MistressMelissa -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 10:33:31 PM)

quote:

MistressMelissa - Did you read my posts?


Yes and no Malaki, I read, and reread your first post several times and while I was writing my response you posted your second post. Check the time stamp they are 4 minutes apart. My point was that abuse is often a matter of perspective. Those who do not fit the "norm" of this lifestyle are often accused of abuse. Your original post has the feel of someone on a crusade.

Since by your profile you are new to the lifestyle, I find the tone of your post to have an agenda. I also wonder when I read you enjoy edge play but yet do not scene. Edge play by definition is a risky scene. By law "rape" is a crime of abuse, yet you claim to engage in rape.

You claim to be Gorean and I believe auralise to be your girl, yet you allow her to post in a way many Goreans would find offensive. As you say its your house but before the rest of us are accused of sprearding "idiocy" or accused of "loonacy" you should start in your own home.



Soulhuntre -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/2/2005 11:05:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malaki
Why is the concept of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE so hard to grasp as opposed to concentual BDSM "lifestyle"? If you have doubts perhaps you are an abuser!


I don't have any problems with the concept. I know exactly what I consider the difference. What I am saying is that the judgement is not one i will leave up to others, and certainly not a judgement I am prepared to accept from an outsider. Further, it is a complex, not black and white, judgment to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malaki
Keep in mind, if broken bones and knocked out teeth are something you both enjoy, then this does not in ANY way fall into the topic of point. KEY WORD - CONSENSUAL!


Nothing in your initial post limited this judgment of yours stricktly to situations where non-consent has been repeatedly and clearlys tated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malaki
Rover - What the hell are you babbling about? It is laughable the faith you have our government and our neighbors. You have to murder your wife to get national news let alone local. I live in a major city of 4 million people and rarely if ever see stories relating to Domestic violence unless death is involved.


Why would it be newsworthy? What woudlbe the point of rattling off a list of abuse arrests and cases day after day?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malaki
Soulhunter - You apparently read the posts but simply have a lack of understanding! Try reading them AGAIN! I am not attacking the lifestyle nor anyone directly!


Actually I understood what you said... what I could not deduce from it is what you meant to say.

Personally I think your post was a broad based attack... mostly on peopel who didn't see things your way. Your later responses implying that to disagree with you is to show signs of being an abuser" hasn't helped.



Guest -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 2:23:03 AM)

This has been an interesting and thoughtful discussion so far.Lets keep on topic and leave personal insults off the board, and personal thoughts on it.



Gem -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 3:11:03 AM)

Brightest Blessings

Did anyone take the OP as a direct assult on the way they live their BDSM lives / did you feel you were being judged?>>>>

Nope I didn't feel judged, however I felt that the OP was being far to general and asked that he be more specific on what he felt was abuse, which he did, in which I can now reply

I live in a consentual non-con which basically means that I consented once, it is not ongoing consent, there are many things in my relationship that if I had to consent to on an on-going basis I probably wouldn't. The OP would consider this abuse I consider it a wonderful and freeing way to live.

We play with anger all the time, in fact we have given demos on anger scenes, again the OP would consider this abuse and further more teaching and spreading abuse.

Abuse is not as black and white as all us white knights would like to think. In my 6 years of service I have been emotionally ripped apart and exposed, I have been physically used as a whipping post, mentally I have been pushed beyond the bounds of normal use, in another's eyes they would say I am abused, in my eyes and in my relationship I have been given the freedom to grow, to flourish and to get over the demons that have haunted me.

The OP would see my relationship as abusive and me as brain washed to stay, and nothing I can say here on these boards would change that opinion *shrugs* that is why I asked for him to be more specific.

One could easily say that given the comments of the OP that he is a lose cannon, his explosion and name calling to other readers could be considered abusive, although you as his property would argue against this label until the end of time.

Again what has been pointed out time and again by other readers, abuse is not balck and white .

Blessed Be
Gem



susieslave1 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 3:57:08 AM)

I was in an abusive marriage for over 20 years.... I do know when something is abusive.
My relationship with my Master is loving yet someone put in our guestbook that I went from one abusive marriage into another. The writer did not leave a contact email on the entry so he could not reply. He uploaded a full page regarding this on our website. I have given my Master me.....nothing has been taken from me.... He has my trust.....there is nothing abusive in our relationship/marriage.



IronBear -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 4:25:57 AM)

Merry Met gem,

I'd have to agreen with you in that there was no attack or pouinting fingers in the OP. I read it as consurn that adusers may join a BDSM Community to hide their abuse.

The term abuse defies an accurate defibnition simply because what is abuse for some is a pleasurable play for others. Generally speaking, I hold that what happens between consenting adults stays between them and unless some one's life is at risk or one person asks for help, none of us have anyright to become involved. As I've said so often.. I am NOT a God and I doubt if any in the lifestyle are either Gods or Goddesses. Without some sort of Divine ability to know what is happening in the monds, psychi and souls of each person we just dont know. I do know that is some "do gooder" interfered when I was punishing a slave of mine, and if they didnt back off, they would learn manners courtisty of a riding crop, quirt or whwt ever seem appropriate. (yes it has happened and that person is extremely polite to me these days).

Blessed Be.


Greetings suzi,

Its good that you have found the right relationship after a twenty year abusive marriage. Lass there are just some people who are interfering, rude MFSoB's. I'd just remove that person from your liofe and move on. Nothing you can say is likely to change his mind in anycase.



sunshine333 -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 5:26:32 AM)

i think this is an important thread, whether it has stayed on or off topic. it's important to get an insight into how others think and feel.

we've addressed the topic of "consent" but my concern is that very fine line between "i understand wholeheartedly to what i'm concenting to and yes!! a resounding yes Master! do to me what you will ... i am yours completely!" and ... "omg what have i gotten myself into?!" i can only speak from a slave's perspective which might be helpful for Dominants to hear??

i can easily be swept away and become enthralled by a potential Master. i have this awful habit of putting people (not just lifestyle) on a pedestal. my rational side knows better but my emotional side succumbs to it almost every time. and this is dangerous. it has caused me to trust prematurely and be coaxed into things that if i were only thinking rationally i would never do.

daddysprop ... you said something that made me think ...

"i don't think it's about what's abuse or what isn't abuse, i think it's about what you can and cannot accept. some can accept an abusive situation, others cannot. and if you are one of those who cannot, choose wisely."

easier said than done. most of us like to think we make wise decisions. but, unfortunately, despite our intentions ... it isn't always the case. abuse can happen before any agreements are made or contracts signed. abuse can start with the first e-mail, IM or phone conversation. and it can be subtle. so subtle that you don't even realize what's happening. and it's only in retrospect that you can hopefully recognize it. people can be selfish and tricky and stop at nothing to have their needs met. not everyone is honorable and honest. i have noticed a sense of entitlement in many dominants that seems to override their ability to be compassionate and ...(i know this might be a stretch) ... even selfless.

i have learned, if nothing else, to get to know a potential Master as a person, first ... and as a Master, second. and i expect the same in return. i wonder if other slaves have made the same mistakes i have made in allowing themselves to be swept away too soon. while that is very romantic and appealing ... it is also dangerous.

maybe instead of arguing over semantics we can offer suggestions and advice on how to avoid abusive situations? i think that would be helpful.

humbly,
sunshine







darkinshadows -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 5:38:38 AM)

quote:

maybe instead of arguing over semantics we can offer suggestions and advice on how to avoid abusive situations? i think that would be helpful.

humbly,
sunshine


Hello sunshine...

I loved your post. One thing I would comment on is that it is impossible to avoid abusive situations. This thread itself, has become abusive in some respects. I think it is impossible to teach or advise how to avoid abuse, because it is so difficult to pin down what abuse is. We all know what abuse does, but what it is, is not so easily defined.

But what we can do is lead by examples. People learn more from 'advertising' - and that is exactly what it is - much more than being told what to do or how to behave. If we can carry ourselves with dignity and be positive role modelas and expell neagativity, then people who are on the outside looking in and looking for their place, will be able to better understand what they can and cannot put up with, as well as what they should and should not put up with.

Peace and Love



Gem -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 7:15:23 AM)

MM and Brightest Blessings IronBear

I do love reading your posts :) even if sometimes I do not see things thru your eyes I always discover something worthwhile hearing and reading.

Secondly I have a similar story:

We were at a club one night and having a grand old time playing my Owner was using some knives on me when all of a sudden there is a face right in mine asking are you alright do I need to stop this. My owner came right up the fella with his knife close to the fella's throat and said unless you want to be involved in this scene get.. (well can't repeat that in polite society) LOL needless to say we have never been bothered again when we scene in local public the crowd and this fella got the message but not before ruining my head space . A little street justices always goes a long way to letting folks see another way.

( Er I realize there is a difference in punishment and /s/m play..for us it is great fun even though I am not a masochist but that is another thread LOL)

Blessed Be
Gem






WickedKev -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 9:19:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev

Abuse is such a genral term, and like all terms means differant things to differant people. For me anyone that strikes out in anger is not a Dominant/Master or anthing resembling it. If you can't control yourself how can you control someone else? A qliche'? Maybe but a very valid one.

I have a friend whose submissive left him because "he could not control himself".

His mother passed away and he was distraught for a few weeks and would break down crying on occasion (rather understandable) - and, this girl stated that she could not be with a dominant who could not control his emotions....

Since then, I have found this platitude rather hollow...

We are all human. We all have 'moments' when we lose our "control"... and, lash out. Adopting the term "master" or 'dominant' into one's life does not change that.

Degree and constancy are more telling than the happening.

~J



True and what you wrote is not the type of control I was talking about. I lost my mother then 2 years later I lost my wife of 20 years, and I am not unemotional person. I cried lots and it took me a long time to come to terms with it, but at no time did I do violence against anyone, partically someone I was in a relationship with. That is the self control I am talking about, to take my dominant feelings and my sadism and turn them into some constructive.



IronBear -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 9:48:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

i have learned, if nothing else, to get to know a potential Master as a person, first ... and as a Master, second. and i expect the same in return. i wonder if other slaves have made the same mistakes i have made in allowing themselves to be swept away too soon. while that is very romantic and appealing ... it is also dangerous.

maybe instead of arguing over semantics we can offer suggestions and advice on how to avoid abusive situations? i think that would be helpful.

humbly,
sunshine



What a delightful and thoughtfull post sunshine. Yes I agree whole heartedly with you there. I prefer a good getting to know you period with someone who I am looking at collar wise. Afrer a few meetings in public areas, I like them to visit us. I also sugest that they bring a friend if necessary especially if the friend is in the lifestyle and ideally a Dominant. The reason is naturally I want them to feel safe when visiting. It's important for them to see how we live and how our home is run (Particularly if down the track we will look at a 24/7 situation as a Gorean slave).

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel


Hello sunshine...

But what we can do is lead by examples. People learn more from 'advertising' - and that is exactly what it is - much more than being told what to do or how to behave. If we can carry ourselves with dignity and be positive role modelas and expell neagativity, then people who are on the outside looking in and looking for their place, will be able to better understand what they can and cannot put up with, as well as what they should and should not put up with.

Peace and Love


Exactly dark ~ angel.. Leading by example as well as taking time to talk to those who want to talk or ask questions is worth reams of paper and the writing thereon. As usuall you have hit the nail on the head.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem

MM and Brightest Blessings IronBear

I do love reading your posts :) even if sometimes I do not see things thru your eyes I always discover something worthwhile hearing and reading.

Secondly I have a similar story:

We were at a club one night and having a grand old time playing my Owner was using some knives on me when all of a sudden there is a face right in mine asking are you alright do I need to stop this. My owner came right up the fella with his knife close to the fella's throat and said unless you want to be involved in this scene get.. (well can't repeat that in polite society) LOL needless to say we have never been bothered again when we scene in local public the crowd and this fella got the message but not before ruining my head space . A little street justices always goes a long way to letting folks see another way.

( Er I realize there is a difference in punishment and /s/m play..for us it is great fun even though I am not a masochist but that is another thread LOL)

Blessed Be
Gem






Merry Met Gem,

Thank you for your kind words. I have a principle in life. "In the final analysis, you must be your own Policeman." As I tell so many on other occasions, "During the hours of darkness, there is no law and order." generally o don't advocate taking the law into your own hands, but in the absence of any sort of security or management type person at a function, there are times when you have to protect you property from interferance. I may be cynical from way too many years dealing with unpleasant types who laugh at the law, but when I see someone interfering with my property or any other part of my family I am prepared to and will take appropriate action. Please pass my respects to your Master and I applaude his stance in that occasion.

Blessed Be




thetammyjo -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 11:47:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malaki

quote:

As for the “Responsibilities of a Master”; I assumed everyone would know what this inferred. – YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF YOUR SLAVE! -. Safe, Sane and Consensual are terms repeatedly used within our lifestyle.


I know the terms involved... but, I am not responsible for the "safety and well being of my slave" - she is responsible for her own life - I am responsible for her actions... hence my belief that these imposed edicts are mindless.

I have a very strong belief in personal responsibility... that precludes me for accepting responsibility for things beyond my control.

Will I make her life as "nondestructive" as possible... yes.

Can I impact her safety and wellbeing in a positive way?- I can strive for this.... and, I generally succeed.

But, she is ultimatly the person responsible for her "safety and well being" - not I.

~J




I think we may be over extending what Malaki intended to say....

However, I agree that I as a dominant can only protect myself, educated myself and offer my slave the support and exposure to information so that he can do the same for himself.

I have turned away submissives who thought I could protect and provide everything for them. I can only control what they do in my house and in my presence; I can influence what they do at other times but they can reject, accept or modify that influence.

For example, I was training a very nice young woman who I think has a lot of potential. Unfortunately her background and her drinking (the first I knew of, the second she hid) resulted in her going to the hospital. I evaluated the situation and announced that I could no longer train her until she got the help she needed and that I would require proof of her getting said help. I am still her friend but no kink and no Ds until she is willing to start working on making herself better.

Likely I spend so much time talking then training before owning or a serious personal Ds relationship that I find out about most of these things.



Auralise -> RE: Misuse of Terms - Abuse? (10/3/2005 11:54:45 AM)

Greetings susieslave,

Wow! Reading your post was truly disheartening. i am deeply saddened to read about your wedding guestbook and website. It is disgusting that some person would take from you a beautiful, life-long memory / keepsake and scar it. Whomever wrote it is not worthy of your friendship. You deserve better than that. Truly unreal.

auralise



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