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RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:02:10 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: you may have a point if the same pattern had not been repeated across the whole of sub Saharan Africa.
Mugabe is not a fool. He is a genuine idealogue/racist who has been exposed , at great cost to his own indigenous population.

No doubt were it not whites whom he could scapegoat he would have picked on Nkomo's tribe, the name escapes me
In fact I believe he did by denying received aid to his opponents
Let them starve they dont support me. Now almost everybody is starving.


Sorry Seeks, but there are few countries in southern Africa which are comparable. Of those which are - South Africa, Botswana and Namibia, none have gone the same way as Zimbabwe, and Botswana and Namibia have been in majority control for some decades now, with far better race relations and no deterioration in wealth.

E

I believe it was Joshua Nkomo, the head of a tribe, to whom you refer. That a political group under Mugabe took control rather than a tribal group such as Nkomo's is interesting.

_____________________________

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RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:03:56 PM   
SophiaCorrupted


Posts: 69
Joined: 2/3/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: you may have a point if the same pattern had not been repeated across the whole of sub Saharan Africa.



The same pattern has applies everywhere. Any violent takeovers since the 70s, whether in South America, Eastern Europe, or West Africa has resulted in brief periods of peace interspersed with chaos. The fact that other parts of Africa are also entrapped in chaos simply means that the countries that DO attain peace are likely to lose it soon due to their neighbors.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:04:02 PM   
hydranmenace


Posts: 52
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline

Well put.

My view is that Africa`s troubles began when Europeans colonized it.

Almost every disaster and problem can be traced to white exploitation of resources and of the populations in each country.

The method is simple and age old.Once you`ve established yourselves in a country(either by war or pay-offs),the colonizer selects an elite and/or loyal sect or class of the population and puts them in charge over the rest.

Government positions,military and law enforcement slots are all filled with those loyal and they`re given money,land ,stuff and power.But when you vacate,you leave a ticking time bomb.

Like in India,the African model produced the most output/earnings for the colonial powers, w/ the least amount of problems.This method only spawns hatred and loathing and can only lead to trouble.

If there was trouble,the French Foreign Legion or British marines would arrive to "save" this most civil of societies and back up the oppressive elite class running things.

This way of doing business has fed and flamed class/ethnic hatred for decades.

Almost every country that was colonized(world-wide) has suffered these conditions and assaults on civility. And, for no other reason than to aid and to make it easier for assholes to exploit/rob a nation`s natural resources.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The mass murders in Rwanda ,were a direct result of decades of colonial exploition and the ugly methods used to maintain it.

A few years after Rwanda is free of European influence,it explodes and all that ethnic hate that served the whites so well for years,was playing out on innocent Tutsis at the hands of Hutus.

I recall rightwingers laughing and saying that is what you get when you let the "blacks" run things.

This is a common right-wing view.

That the colonizing/exploitative, asshole whites are doing good deeds around the world and are actually the good guys in all of this.lol

That native Africans can`t prosper on their own and "need" help(even at the end of a gun barrel)
en
Of course, this is simplistic non-sense and un-informed at best.Hateful and bigoted,at worst.
[/quote]

I don't know which right wingers you speak with. My personal views tend toward the right, politically speaking and i would never make such a blanket statement based on anyones race. I can't say this is a common right wing view. Perhaps it is just vocalized more loudly by a small minority? Africa is in a sad state, and I wish that were not the case. All of this hits close to home, because my grandparents lived in Chad and the CAR for 35 years. My mom was born in Chad. Our family speaks Bandii and Sango, two local languages in that area. Corruption is disturbingly widespread, and this isn't because of anyones skin color, it is because leadership is nearly non-existent. When the leadership will not take responsibility, no one else sees the need either. They all just do what they can to survive. I'm sure the local population could farm just as well as anyone, if they were taught the skills to do so, and were willing to learn, but in a region that is so unstable you just can't count on having that opportunity. It is easier to steal or take bribes under the conditions the area is in, and so long as that remains true, no one will bother with developing farming skills or anything else.

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RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:04:18 PM   
Kaledorus


Posts: 95
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline 		South Africa is going down the tubes also.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:06:17 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

The mass murders in Rwanda ,were a direct result of decades of colonial exploition and the ugly methods used to maintain it.


Here is the the inane stupidity of PC post colonial guilt written as large as is possible.
I rob your house.
You murder your brother.
It must be my fault.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:13:48 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		You misunderstand Seeks

If one wishes to rule, one sets up one group to rule the rest under you. When you leave, this group retains its superiority. Then the rest get pissed and revolt. Then there ensues civil war or even genocide as each side attempts to assert control.

Although I would venture to say this isnt a "white disease" we brought to Africa; given the way that slaves were gathered in west Africa by the tribe in control there for sale to the white slavers, it would seem more an aspect of general human behaviour to have one group in control of a larger group and for them to be exploited.

Closer to home, the Normans brought Bretons over to legitimise their claim on Wales and to help ruling the Anglo Saxons, and preserved those Anglo Saxons in power who would be useful for their aims.

E

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:16:00 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SophiaCorrupted
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE: you may have a point if the same pattern had not been repeated across the whole of sub Saharan Africa.

The same pattern has applies everywhere. Any violent takeovers since the 70s, whether in South America, Eastern Europe, or West Africa has resulted in brief periods of peace interspersed with chaos. The fact that other parts of Africa are also entrapped in chaos simply means that the countries that DO attain peace are likely to lose it soon due to their neighbors.

First the takeovers, when they actually occured in Africa, were NOT violent.
The UK in particular could not support the costs, after being bankrupted by that war hero Churchill, of the colonies and agreements were reached with great hope on all sides

Second I suspect that you have no idea how successfull were the economies of South Africa, Rhodesia and Kenya, to name but three.

So emergent African politicians had success handed to them on a platter and the future predicions , in the 1950's, were without exception optimistic.

Result: disaster everywhere

Dont shoot the messenger, be ruthlessly honest and ask why ?.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/5/2008 5:21:02 PM >

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RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:17:35 PM   
SophiaCorrupted


Posts: 69
Joined: 2/3/2008
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quote:


Here is the the inane stupidity of PC post colonial guilt written as large as is possible.
I rob your house.
You murder your brother.
It must be my fault.


Coming to a conclusion such as this has more to do with understanding high-level logic and the psychology of revenge than being "politically correct" or "guilty."

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:21:34 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

The mass murders in Rwanda ,were a direct result of decades of colonial exploition and the ugly methods used to maintain it.


Here is the the inane stupidity of PC post colonial guilt written as large as is possible.
I rob your house.
You murder your brother.
It must be my fault.


I`ll top that,...mate.

I invade your house and kick your arse out the back door.

As you sit in the mud,I stand in the doorway proclaiming that I`m running your house better than you.Better than ever in the past and I`m making more money to boot.

Obviously you don`t get my superiority over you,....or my inherent benevolence towards you.....

But no matter,....I`m in charge now and you really don`t matter,anyway.

Isn`t colonial life grand?

Just arskin.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/5/2008 5:23:41 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:30:33 PM   
SophiaCorrupted


Posts: 69
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: SophiaCorrupted
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE: you may have a point if the same pattern had not been repeated across the whole of sub Saharan Africa.

The same pattern has applies everywhere. Any violent takeovers since the 70s, whether in South America, Eastern Europe, or West Africa has resulted in brief periods of peace interspersed with chaos. The fact that other parts of Africa are also entrapped in chaos simply means that the countries that DO attain peace are likely to lose it soon due to their neighbors.

First the takeovers, when they actually occured in Africa, were NOT violent.
The UK in particular could not support the costs, after being bankrupted by that war hero Churchill, of the colonies and agreements were reached with great hope on all sides

Second I suspect that you have no idea how successfull were the economies of South africa, Rhodesia and Kenya, to name but three.

So emergent African politicians had success handed to them on a platter and the future predicions , in the 1950's, were without exception optimistic.

Result: disaster everywhere

Dont shoot the messenger, be ruthlessly honest and ask why ?.


I don't know what your standards for "violent takeover" are, but I'd consider the civil war that resulted in Zimbabwe and the end of Rhodesia to be under the catagory of violent. That's just me though.

And Rhodesia had a beautiful economy. Too bad it was enbroiled in a war for more than half of it's existance and lasted for about a decade and a half before being wiped from existance. Disaster Everywhere. It's a classic story of some great white people completely fucking up the running of a country.

The fact that their economies were economically viable aren't a factor. This accounts for the brief moments of peace (13 glooooorious wartorn years in Rhodesia) I mentioned, remember? The fact is that anytime a country is under new management, shit is going to go bad, and when many people have a lot of money to make from shit going bad, they're going to ensure that things continue to go bad. Do you think America would be a peaceful (Um...let's just pretend for a second.), economically prosperous country if Canada and Mexico both wanted us dead or could make billions by ruining us?


< Message edited by SophiaCorrupted -- 4/5/2008 5:37:25 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:34:18 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Owner : I am not defending colonialism per se I am attacking post colonial guilt being used to excuse the vicious murderous racist tribalist quite useless regimes that have controlled  African nations  since 1950.

quote:

SophiaCorrupted
I don't know what your standards for "violent takeover" are, but I'd consider the civil war that resulted in Zimbabwe and the end of Rhodesia to be under the catagory of violent. That's just me though.
Fair point. My mistake. I was thinking mostly of the independace that occured in the 1950's.
Even then lots of violence had occured but eventually the UK govnt was forced to see sense. The main fact is that most economies were reasonably stable and in many cases very successful.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/5/2008 5:40:26 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:38:21 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hydranmenace



I don't know which right wingers you speak with. My personal views tend toward the right, politically speaking and i would never make such a blanket statement based on anyones race. I can't say this is a common right wing view. Perhaps it is just vocalized more loudly by a small minority? Africa is in a sad state, and I wish that were not the case. All of this hits close to home, because my grandparents lived in Chad and the CAR for 35 years. My mom was born in Chad. Our family speaks Bandii and Sango, two local languages in that area. Corruption is disturbingly widespread, and this isn't because of anyones skin color, it is because leadership is nearly non-existent. When the leadership will not take responsibility, no one else sees the need either. They all just do what they can to survive. I'm sure the local population could farm just as well as anyone, if they were taught the skills to do so, and were willing to learn, but in a region that is so unstable you just can't count on having that opportunity. It is easier to steal or take bribes under the conditions the area is in, and so long as that remains true, no one will bother with developing farming skills or anything else.


I was referring to American right-wingers (as heard on right-wing talk radio/media).In general,not a very worldly bunch.

Other than my recollection of neo-con attitudes toward post-colonial Africa,was there anything else I posted that you don`t agree with?

An "on the ground/from the area " point of view would be much appreciated.

American media doesn`t really cover Africa well( until there`s a crisis).

I get most of my info from the BBC and Doctors Without Borders,UNICEF,etc.

(in reply to hydranmenace)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:39:07 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Another story on the situation on Zimbabwe's current crisis.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080405/ts_nm/zimbabwe_election_dc

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:40:22 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

The mass murders in Rwanda ,were a direct result of decades of colonial exploition and the ugly methods used to maintain it.

The genocide in Rwanda is the result of an ethnic/class conflict dating back centuries.  The German/Belgian colonial period beginning in 1890 certainly didn't help, but to ascribe the ethnic tensions between Tutsi and Hutu to that period factually inaccurate.


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 5:43:54 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Owner : I am not defending colonialism per se I am attacking post colonial guilt being used to excuse the vicious murderous racist tribalist quite useless regimes that have controlled  African nations  since 1950.


On this we can agree.

But our hands aren`t clean.

Let`s do what we can, as much as we can and as often as possible.

I liken this to a body bleeding from hundreds of holes both tiny and large.

Let`s not let politics get in the way of helping ,correct or in-correct.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/5/2008 5:46:46 PM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 6:04:44 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		LadyE tells me that not all is bad in Africa because Namibia and Botswana are successful.
In fact living standards are at subsistance level in Namibia and not a great deal higher in Botswana.

What is the reason for such succes as actually exists? Tourism and raw material deposits: Uranium Ore, Nickel , Diamonds etc all basically extracted with Western and South African expertise.

The governments of both Namimbia and Botswana did not throw the baby out with the bathwater but entered into agreements with the South African/European corporations that extract such raw materials and as a consequnce were able to benefit from the  generated real wealth.

In other words they recognised which side of the bread was buttered and accomodated the nasty white man and benefitted as a result.
Get it ?


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 6:38:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		There`s a huge difference between partnership/fair-play,...and exploitation and land rape.

Ever heard of "blood diamonds"?

Should the west reward and support that crap or should we use our money and influence to fight it?

Should the west punish a company or nation that gives the bribes to the thugs/beasts?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We do have choices and can do the right thing,rather than the profitable thing.

And then ,maybe those things could be mutually inclusive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From past experience,I`m not counting on the west`s good will.

I mean, nation`s getting together,to do the right things for the worlds poor?...........

A bunch of sissy do-gooders worrying about the suffering ,hunger and disease poor of folks?.......

Like the UN?!!!!........

Damm liberals!!!!!..........


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/5/2008 6:40:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 7:26:06 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I think there is a large dgeree of misunderstanding about the "farm" issue in Zimbabwe.  The agricultural output has not dropped because of the color of anyones skin.  There are a couple of very important points being left out.  What is being refered to as the "white" farms were gigantic plantations, larger than counties or small Europeon countries.  These giant plantations were run in the modern scientific way, leaving lots of land fallow, leaving forested parts, shifting crops to replenish the soil, ect.  Where you had a huge commercial enterpise, you now have thousands individuall famillies trying to build homes, and run farms (and keep cooking fires going).  Of course the output has fallen dramatically, the land is being depleted, and too much water is being used.  It has nothing to do with the color or culture of anyone involved.

Also Mugabe has not given land to anyone.  He is allowing them to use it, at his pleasure.  They don't get deeds.  They have no incentive to really improve the land, as it can be snatched at a moments notice.  Socialism in action, and the death toll reaches into the millions.  There is a reason why all the countries that are run by Socialists engineer huge famines.  It is much easier to controll hungry people.  I don't have the link handy but a few years ago one of Mugabe's top people said in an interview that they wanted to have a population of 7 million loyal, patriotic citizens( from a high of over 12 million, I actually do not remeber the exact numbers, but he was quite clear, they want to kill off close to half of the population). 

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 9:19:07 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Look Kitten I have been patient with you long enough.

The facts are that in Zimbabwe an extremely prosperous agricultural industry controlled by whites existed. Whites who had been there before even you emerged to grace us with your your bon mots.
Mugabe disposesssed them by force and the result has been chaos piled upon catastrophe resulting in rampant inflation and enormous reduction in living standards.

The South African regime has indicated that they might do the same with regard to so called land reform
People who think like you are part of the problem.

By the way what was your stance on the brutal French response to Algerian nationalism. Only arskin'.

There have been many civilizations in Zimbabwe as is shown by the ancient stone structures at Khami, Great Zimbabwe and Dhlo-Dhlo. The first major civilization to become established was the Mwene Mutapa (or Monomotapas), who were said to have built Great Zimbabwe, in the ruins of which was found the soapstone bird that features on the Zimbabwean flag. By the mid-1440s, King Mutota's empire included almost all of the Rhodesian (Zimbabwean) plateau and extensive parts of what is now Mozambique. The wealth of this empire was based on small-scale industries, for example iron smelting, textiles, gold and copper, along with agriculture. The regular inhabitants of the empire's trading towns were the Swahili merchants with whom trade was conducted.
The Gokomere people, a Bantu-speaking group of migrant farmers, inhabited the Great Zimbabwe site from about AD 500, displacing earlier Khoisan people. From about 1000, the fortress took shape, reaching its peak by the fifteenth century. These were the ancestors of the Shona (or Mashona) people, who make up about 80% of modern Zimbabwe's population. Later they formed the Rozwi Empire, which continued until the nineteenth century.

[edit] Arrival of the Portuguese
In the early 16th century AD the Portuguese arrived, destroyed this trade and began a series of wars which left the empire so weakened that it was near collapse in the early 17th century. Several Shona states came together to form the Rozwi Empire which covered more than half of present day Zimbabwe. By 1690 the Portuguese had been forced off the plateau and the Rozwi controlled much of the land formerly under Mwene Mutapa. Peace and prosperity reigned over the next two centuries and the centres of Doloo-Doloo, Khami, and Great Zimbabwe reached their peaks. As a result of the mid-19th century turmoil in Transvaal and Natal, the Rozwi Empire came to an end.


Seems to me they were doing fine before the whites...amazing how well people thrive when left unmolested. 

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/5/2008 9:42:45 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Hang on here while I pick my knuckles up off the floor .........

The Whites who colonized Rhodesia did the Blacks no favor in doing so. And in my opinion they should not have been there in the first place. They were opportunists and things seem to have gone wrong for them after they lost control of the elections there. Oops.

They moved in and brought modern business and farming methods with them. These things were foreign to the natives, but for a time they had food.

You think I am fucking radical ? Let's go there. They raped and pillaged and plindered under Mugabe with impunity. In my view the Whites should never have come. They do not belong there and they upset the balance of things. Mugabe put it right, now they are starving. If not for the intervention of the "great" White Man, they would have starved decades ago.

I think that would have been better. Africa is one of the reasons I am against charity. If you feed two starving people then you have to feed twelve. They don't get it, STOP FUCKING !

And the Whites who went there, for them I have no sympathy. They went there for the opportunity, oh well it is over. Their descendants now suffer. Oh well.

And if I am to be branded a knuckle dragging redneck, let me ask you this. Tell me of one time African natives built a boat and sailed the seas to make new discoveries, tell me of their written language. Tell me of their science and literature. I am waiting.

Truth is, the people are not substandard, proof of the is in the fact that in a few short generations of integration into western society they are now doctors and lawyers, one is even running for President of the US. You can't keep a good Man down.

Let me tell you how bigoted I am, if Obama gets the ticket I will vote for him. Given the choices I think he is the best Man for the job.

But the natives in Africa do not have this. They were not raised this way. This is fact. This does not diminish them as people, but everybody here knows someone they are smarter than. Come on, say it. There are some mighty stupid people in the world. You would have to be an idiot to think all of them are White.

Whites do not belong in Africa. They never did. We have no business interfering with their affairs and the natural selection process. We (Whites) seem to look at every land as an opportunity, to be governed by our rule to the benefit of those ruled. The farthest the natives thought was to conquer a neighboring tribe. They never bothered anyone. They simply never developed the means.

We did. We have bothered everyone we could find on this planet.

Here are the facts, years ago Rhodes got control of what is now known as Zimbabwe, and Whites ruled it for a time. That time is over, and they whined about it for years now. But this is a fact of life, everything they built is gone. That is something that might happen when you strive to build an empire. Shit happens, and it did. Tough.

When people do not have the resources or intelligence to use them properly they die. I care not the skin color of the dead. I care only that they are dead and they leave more of the world's resources for the rest of us. Let their rotting corpses fertilize the ground for future generations to farm, if they can figure it out.

Yes I am a bigot, but not the way you think. You think I am tough on Blacks who can't think their way out of a paper bag, wait until you see my views of a White with the same problem. You are white, you had the advantage of our education and society, and still you can't read ? I'll teach a motherfucker to read, because I can't stand it. I don't care what color they are. Although I have to admit to a bit of reverse bigotry almost, and some are going to disagree.

When I see a Black person who can't read I can imagine that their upbringing wasn't quite up to snuff, when I see a White person who cannot read I think "What the fuck ?". You had all the advantages and you did what, partied your way through school ?

I did, but I am blessed with Parents who taught me at home. I went to school when I felt like it. I bet the Obama family was similar, to not rely on the schools to teach the kids. I could see it now, little Barack asking what a word means and Daddy saying "Hmmm, I actually don't know, but we got this dandy thing here known as a dictionary".

You can call me heartless, that I accept.I accept it graciously in fact. I am heartless. I do truly believ that an 80% reduction in world population will help to make this planet fit for human habitation. Which 80% has to go ? Well if it is to be fair it cuts across all racial lines, skin color means nothing.

If I were to play god I would kill all of the children of a close family friend. I have known Uncle Whiskers ever since the day I was born. If I were to play god, I would kill all his children, and their children. They are useless pieces of shit, and to describe them, this time I will NOT capitalize the word white.

This is one of my Father's best friends. Five kids and not one of them with a fucking job. Useless. Are you getting what I am saying, this is alot more than you think.

I mean if, for example someone else was playing god and I was to be executed, I would go for the betterment of humanity. You think this human garbage would do that ?

Now was there a skin color associated with the term "human garbage" or did you read that into it ?

Get with it people, we can't live much longer this way. We are dying. We are dying as a species and those who know how to make a farm produce will die just as fast. I do not think that is right.

Stupid is a species that undermines it's own supply of necessities.

T

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