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RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 7:20:20 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Modern Zimbabwe was built by white settlers.
All of the wealth was created by white settlers.
Mining actvitity was brought about by white expertise
Agicultural surplus likewise.
The civil engineering infra structure was designed, built and installed by whites.
How for effs sake is that raping a country ?


So, I take it that when you watched Independence Day, you were rooting for the aliens because they were going to do more with the earth than we had done?  I also assume you approve of Saddam's displacement and killing of Shia' muslims so he could build Iraq.  I mean we know you believe in these things otherwise you would be deeply hypocritical, wouldn't you?

Modern Zimbabwe was built by white settlers, after killing and or displacing those who owned the land in the first place and using them as cheap forced labor

All of the wealth was created by white settlers after killing and or displacing those who owned the land in the first place and using them as cheap forced labor

Mining actvitity was brought about by white expertise after killing and or displacing those who owned the land in the first place and using them as cheap forced labor


Agicultural surplus likewise, yeah because the natives imported all their food and paid for it with their credit cards?

That is how you rape a country

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 7:22:08 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		 
quote:


...the signing of the "Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001" (ZIDERA) by President Bush in 2001 effectively ordered the IMF and multilateral development banks – including the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the International Development Association, the International Finance Corporation, the Inter-American Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank, the Inter-American Investment Corporation, the African Development Bank, the African Development Fund, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, and the Multilateral Investment Guaranty Agency – to ‘oppose and vote against any extension by the respective institution of any loan, credit, or guarantee to the government of Zimbabwe,’ and to vote against any reduction or cancellation of "indebtedness owed by the government of Zimbabwe." (White House Statement by President Bush, 21 December 2001).

In practice, ZIDERA has blocked virtually all multilateral financial institutions, including African banks that could potentially lend money to Zimbabwe. Also as a result of ZIDERA, the IMF has on numerous occasions even threatened to expel Zimbabwe from its membership. The extensive nature of the sanctions has prompted the SADC to call for the sanctions to be removed and to urge Britain to fund land reform in Zimbabwe, as a way of ending the current political and economic crisis.


Institute for Security Studies


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 7:26:43 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		The agricultural surplus came about during UDI.  Sanctions meant that Zimbabwe's traditional cash crop, tobacco couuld not be sold - although fascist Portugal did channel as much out as they could.  Rather than grant majority rule and reacquire their tobacco market, the settlers began growing maize, Zim's stable diet and sold crops at a loss until they had destroyed many black small-holders livelihood, forecing them to become employees.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 7:32:24 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		It is not the nationalisation of farm land - it is not even about the ethnicities of those involved. Its about the pursuit of a nazi ideology of racial supremacy which has bankrupted Zimbabwe. Far more black people have suffered than white, but we can still account it as such, since the whites suffered for their ethnicity and the blacks suffered for having anything to do with the whites. A bit like the German trade union members and members of other political parties post 1933 - it wasnt enough to be German there and then, and it isnt enough to be black in Zimbabwe - one must idolise Mugabe or face the consequences.

Had the farms been nationalised by the new government and leased to either the settlers or to their farm workers (ie, people with the knowledge and skills and experience to succeed), rather than to supporters of Mugabe, we wouldnt be having this discussion. Again, its about an ideology - not about the colour of anyone's skin.

Yes, Mugabe has brought everything on himself - and on his country far more, for he is insulated by his position from the effects of his ideology. I can admire someone for sticking to their guns, but when the policy is clearly and recurrently and continuously a failure, such admiration is withdrawn; keep on doing the same things in the same way, and one gets the same things in the same way.

Again, there is no need to make this about ethnicities - its about ideology, as indeed it is in other failing states in Africa, although as I mentioned, Botswana and Namibia which are the only real comparisons, are doing far better. I'm not sure what their politics are like but I would guess now that they are pragmatists rather than ideologists.

Africa gets a poor deal in general worldwide when it comes to trade - and that is something which must be tackled. But what has to be remembered is that the enormous wealth of the continent is only of any value if someone wants to buy. That the someone who wants to buy is mainly western companies isnt grounds for guilt - the conditions of the purchase are what are.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 7:55:20 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

It is not the nationalisation of farm land - it is not even about the ethnicities of those involved. Its about the pursuit of a nazi ideology of racial supremacy which has bankrupted Zimbabwe.


What proof of this is there? 

quote:


Had the farms been nationalised by the new government and leased to either the settlers or to their farm workers (ie, people with the knowledge and skills and experience to succeed), rather than to supporters of Mugabe, we wouldnt be having this discussion.


Overwhelmingly they were leased to farmers as I have repeatedly explained.  Very few farms were held by veterans without farming skills before the economic crisis hit.  There are pages and pages recording all aspects of this online.  I suggest you find a reliable source of information -  you clearly lack one.

quote:


Again, its about an ideology - not about the colour of anyone's skin.


So how can it be a racial supremacy theory, as you called it above?  I know you like double standards but switching mid-post is a bit rich.

quote:


Yes, Mugabe has brought everything on himself - and on his country far more, for he is insulated by his position from the effects of his ideology. I can admire someone for sticking to their guns, but when the policy is clearly and recurrently and continuously a failure, such admiration is withdrawn; keep on doing the same things in the same way, and one gets the same things in the same way.


That's fairly close to my position, you ought to read my posts now and again.

quote:


Again, there is no need to make this about ethnicities


How can overthrowing a white supremacist government fail to be about ethnicity somewhere along the line? Get real.

quote:


Africa gets a poor deal in general worldwide when it comes to trade - and that is something which must be tackled. But what has to be remembered is that the enormous wealth of the continent is only of any value if someone wants to buy. That the someone who wants to buy is mainly western companies isnt grounds for guilt - the conditions of the purchase are what are.



For the last time - when you can show me where in my post I display these sentiments you can attck me for them.  If there is guilt, it is immaterial.  All I am talking about is justice.  If only people like you, rather than talking this noxious old crap about your idea of "Africa" would be do something to stop the exploitation, not just of Africa but the entire developing world.

If the mineral wealth is not in demand, China and India buying it will disabuse the Western fantasists of their delusional self-image as Lady Bountiful. 

And in case you didn't know it, Mugabe has loads of white employees and hangers on, making a fortune out there.  Including the father of Prince Harry's girlfriend, who's shipped thousands of tonnes of black rhino horn, poached unsustainably from Zim. 

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 8:03:08 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The problems caused in Zimbabwe are nothing to do with the ethnicity of the black majority (as some here have stated)- they are to do with a racist ideology which has been pursued against whites regardless of the damage that ideology causes.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 8:34:28 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Again, misinformation.  The violent repression of the students alone far exceeds anything the whites have suffered; and then there are the trades unionists.  Objectionable as much of Zimbabwe's domestic policies are, sanctions are what destroyed the economy.  If not, why were they put in place?

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 9:58:07 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IXian



a) Has the slavetrade and colonial exploitations been a significant factor for the social and economic disasters in modern Africa?

There is no question that they have.  Colonial exploitation largely still persists in Africa and if it were suddenly to cease, the world economy would be ravaged.


b) Has most of Africa's wealth allready been exploited?

No.

c) Have any african cultural traits perpetuated Africas condition?

The notion is often mooted to cover up the deliberate under-development of Africa - what cultural traits did Europe possess that made the Marshall Plan and the creation of Nato imperative? 

d) Is it possible to claim that Africa as a whole hasn't show any significant improvements since the time the colonies gained freedom?

Some things have improved, other things have worsened but where in the world has improved in every respect in the last 50 years?

e) Are there modern western institutions that perpetuate or actively exploit African countries?
e.1) If yes, please distinguise and explain how a institution perpetuate or actively exploit African countries?

The chief culprit is the World Bank.  It brings immense pressure to bear on these countries to create free markets and floods them with goods which undermine their own economies.  "Aid" often has such strings attached

e.2) If No, does the former colonial powers /western countries have any responsibilities towards Africa?

They have a responsibility not to steal from Africa and then tell their own citizens that they are really trying to help.

Regarding Zimbabwe:
f) Can historical facts legitimize a political policy of redistributing a society's wealth?

YES.  Artworks stolen by the Nazis are returned, not put down to experience.  Also if you legitimize taking land by unlawful force, you legitimize taking it back by force.

f.1) If yes, can such historical facts legitimize any kind of policy?
Come again?

f.2) If no, how do you deal with the resentments that unevenly distribution of wealth creates?
Brainwash them to think the West deserves to steal from everybody

g) When Mugabe or his sucessors fall, how should Zimbabwe deal with them?
Inevitably, higher ranks will be offered some immunity to maintain stability

h) Would there be societal consequences depending on how such an aftermath plays out?

see above

h.1 ) if so, can any punishment fit the crime of ruining a country's economy?
That "crime" only pertains if you think disobeying IMF rules is wrong

i) Would a legal process to punishment those responsible improve Zimbabwe's present condition?

Perhaps lifting sanctions and allowing access to international finance will improve it


(in reply to IXian)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 12:10:26 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		SimplyMichael points out that force and violence were used to obtain the land that is now Zimbabwe. This is true.
In 1840 by black tribesmen and in 1880 by white tribesmen and then in 1980 by black tribesmen again.

The fact is that the white tribesmen set about working their socks off to produce the technically  high level  wealthy society that was Rhodesia.
The black tribesmen, led by Mugabe then proceeded due basically to incompetant blind stupid racism/tribalism, to ruin everything.

SimplyMichael if you believe that the force used in 1880 justifies the removal of white control in Zimbabwe then I know you will agree that Georgia should be returned to the relevant Indian tribe, was it Cherokee? who were dispossessed by first the Brits and then the US settlers.
All of the spectacular advance brought about by the US settlers should count for nought.

I dont believe that but if you dont could I not accuse you of hypocrisy ?



(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 12:47:12 PM   
IXian


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Modern Zimbabwe was built by white settlers.

Not true, where were the natives in the mean time, sitting under a tree watching?
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
All of the wealth was created by white settlers.

Not true, who provides the labor? surely not the natives sitting under the tree watching?
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Mining actvitity was brought about by white expertise
Agicultural surplus likewise.

Not true either, Gold in ancient egypt has been dated to come from areas of africa that today is considered part of Zimbabwe. Working with and extracted iron from ore was a _well established industr_y before the white settlers arrived. This also includes areas in east africa where there's been archeological signs of the kind of organized agriculture that only ironmaking allows. Have you ever tried to plow with a stone or wooden plow? Remember that bronze was valued far above gold and iron because it was so f* hard to make. A Bronze plow is possible to make but is about as sensible as making a car out of solid gold and leave it unattended and unlocked.. Downtown. in a sidestreet. without lighting. two blocks away from the slum apartments. for two weeks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The civil engineering infra structure was designed, built and installed by whites.

Yes completely true. have you ever been to Nigeria? When the Britts turned over the goverment in 1960 they also donated a massive brand new hospital to help the new Nigerian goverment. Unfortunately the cost of keeping this single hospital running consumed over 20% of the total State Budget during the 60's! Let me repeat this: ONE SINGLE HOSPITAL WITH BEDS FOR 10 000 PATIENTS CONSUMED OVER 20% OF THE ANNUAL STATE BUDGET IN A COUNTRY WITH ABOUT 100 MILLION CITIZENS. Now shouldn't they be thankful for the white settler's kindness?
What make you think this is any different in Zimbabwe?
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
How for effs sake is that raping a country ?

Of course it's raping a country. It might have been raping for only a percieved financial gain but rape it was regardless of how people justify it.
But rather than running around in circles whining about wheter it was rape or not, why not ask interesting questions. Like how Zimbabwe should stop being a victim of both external and internal bullies?


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 1:03:53 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		With regard to goldmining in Africa during the time when Egypt was a power to be reckoned with well, I heard that the Africans dug a hole over a mile deep and used the reverse Indian rope trick to go down and get the gold. Maybe that was diamonds, not sure.

With regard to those sitting under trees while say the railways were being developed in Rhodesia it is almost certain that that is precisely what the locals would have been doing had not they have worked on the rail network.
Either that or organising a fight with the adjacent village.

One thing they show no inclination to do was design and build their own rail network. I wonder why ? 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/7/2008 1:05:00 PM >

(in reply to IXian)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 1:15:21 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

IXian. suggests the following question.
How should Zimbabwe stop being a victim of both external and internal bullies?


Good question, my answer would be some form of white behind the scenes political and technological influence.
Everybody gains.
If the UK took the lead our businesses would benefit. For example many forges could be re opened to make the necessary parts. The list is very large.
Also the overall quality of life would, for the average non political class African, improve.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/7/2008 2:28:52 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		The people allowed it, the people need to learn. They should not be saved by others. Nature should take it's course. Cold, sure but intervention has proven to not foster the results we wish. Also, before any country begins to try and help or fix another, there should be want for not a single thing within it. Once your own people are taken care of, then you can begin to give away surplus on a volunteer basis (meaning no tax money).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:


HARARE, Zimbabwe - Zimbabwe's opposition appealed Saturday for the United Nations to intervene to prevent bloodshed in a runoff election campaign amid fears President Robert Mugabe will use brute force to try to retain power.



Armed police later stopped lawyers acting for the Movement for Democratic Change from entering the High Court to apply for an order forcing the release of presidential election results.



A Reuters correspondent on the scene said three police officers blocked Alec Muchadehama and Andrew Makoni from entering the High Court building.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23951840

I realize Africa may  hold little interest for many in the western world, but I hate what's happened in Zimbabwe. Once known as "bread-basket of Africa", and a solid economy, brutal asshat Robert Mugabe has destroyed this nation, and now that it looks like a fair enough election was held to oust him, the old cocksucker is going to hold on to power one way or the other.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 113
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