Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Zimbabwe's agony


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Zimbabwe's agony Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 5:13:45 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE tells me that not all is bad in Africa because Namibia and Botswana are successful.
In fact living standards are at subsistance level in Namibia and not a great deal higher in Botswana.



I chose my words carefully Seeks - I said that there was no deterioration in wealth; Namibia is a poor country to start with, hosting the Namib Desert as it does and Botswana whilst less poor for farming is nowhere near as good for that purpose as the lands of Zimbabwe - yet it exports beef to the UK and Europe (I used to arrange the transport from UK). It illustrates the decline in Zimbabwe well, to compare the three as former British colonies.

Zimbabwe
GDP per capita USD 351-00

Botswana
GDP per capita USD 4771-00

Namibia
GBP per capita USD 2661-00

(sourced from National Geographic Family Reference Atlas Of The World 2nd edition 2007)

E



_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 5:29:25 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline 		LadyE...You're a class act, the real deal

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 5:35:24 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Bring back Yahpet Kotto.

(we'll see who figures that one out.)

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 5:37:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		He's an actor. A bit of an esoteric reference, but it works.

_____________________________



(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 5:40:34 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		And a terribly underappreciated one, at that.

He played Idi Amin, in the made for tv movie "Raid on Entebbe".

MasterIMDB

esoteric? perhaps. misdirection? of course. on topic? ALWAYS.

Robert Mugabe

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/6/2008 5:43:15 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 5:45:18 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

  MasterIMDB 
cute....Yaphet Kotto is a gem.  Just damned "undoable"....sadly.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 5:52:43 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And a terribly underappreciated one, at that.

He played Idi Amin, in the made for tv movie "Raid on Entebbe".

MasterIMDB

esoteric? perhaps. misdirection? of course. on topic? ALWAYS.

Robert Mugabe


You're making Yoweri Museveni (not to mention Forrest Whitaker) nervous.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 6:16:35 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

LadyE...You're a class act, the real deal


Why, thank you! I might well have this framed for future use LOL!

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 7:42:24 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I had two friends from Zim, the one I was closest to came here from Zimbabwe around 10 years ago, he has passed now but he always said the worst problems began when the war with Congo started.  Obviously that war cost a lot but during it, there was a severe drought which effectively wiped out a year's harvest.  The country was eating into foreign exchange reserves and Mugabe attempted to restructure the economy.  While the country was most vulnerable, the west introduced sanctions and from that point, today's outcomes were all largely inevitable.  We're talking about 7-8 years ago.

The sanctions were lauded at the outset - they called them "smart sanctions" if you remember.  But they didn't work so the World Bank and IMF cut off access to foreign exchange.  That's why inflation sky-rocketed, making the importation of electricity impossible, which again ravaged the farms, which need power for irrigation.

But none of the papers this week have mentioned that during all this, Zim's mines have been strictly business as usual and the  country's immense mineral wealth is still finding its way out to the West.  Mugabe was attempting a smash and grab on the mines when the election came along, one which would extract the foreign exchange needed to kick-start the economy again.  I'm sure China and India are waiting with open cheque books if the West doesn't want to play ball.
http://www.infomine.com/countries/zimbabwe.asp

For all Mugabe's shortcomings, he will always be the man who brought down Rhodesia and halted the sick travesty of white minority rule.  Unlike Europe after the war, Africa has not had a Marshall Plan and Nato to ensure stability.  Countries have emerged piecemeal to independence and had to make things happen themselves.  There are African countries which, though poor, are peaceful and democratic, if threatened by external forces and environmental challenges.  But they all recognise the evil of the preceding centuries, the sickest crime of humanity, that some want to airbrush out of history and blame on the victims.

I do not blame these states for supporting Mugabe and I share their skepticism of the man the West want to put in his place.  Personally, I'd rather see MDC take the majority in both houses, cut the President's executive powers and keep Mugabe on as a figurehead head of state for a year before retirement. I'd send him to tour all the countries of the world, so that he can remind us all of the world we live in and what sort of person it took to fight the fight, just so people could have freedom.

A further note - estimates of ten years to restore the Zim Dollar are extremely pessimistic.  They'll float the currency and have it in shape in two years, three at the outside.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 4/6/2008 7:55:13 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 8:17:33 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE tells me that not all is bad in Africa because Namibia and Botswana are successful.
In fact living standards are at subsistance level in Namibia and not a great deal higher in Botswana.

I chose my words carefully Seeks - I said that there was no deterioration in wealth; Namibia is a poor country to start with, hosting the Namib Desert as it does and Botswana whilst less poor for farming is nowhere near as good for that purpose as the lands of Zimbabwe - yet it exports beef to the UK and Europe (I used to arrange the transport from UK). It illustrates the decline in Zimbabwe well, to compare the three as former British colonies.
Zimbabwe
GDP per capita USD 351-00
Botswana
GDP per capita USD 4771-00
Namibia
GBP per capita USD 2661-00
(sourced from National Geographic Family Reference Atlas Of The World 2nd edition 2007)
E

No matter how carefully you chose your words LadyE Uncle Seeks gave you the explanation as to why Nam. and Bots. are relatively wealthy.
South African and European mining conglomerates. 

Reality: there's nothing wrong with white minority rule if the country as it exists was actually built by a white minority.
Person A strongly objects to Liberals like yourself giving away to person B that wealth which person A created.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/6/2008 8:21:29 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 8:35:48 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Further too Mugabe's successful restructuring of the farming industry so that highly productive farms now produce not much at all, as we speak dear old Robert is planning to lay his grubby little mitts on the mining industry .

If his cronies get control can we expect them to produce such spectacularly negative results as have been achieved in agriculture ?
My advice to them, free of charge is to sit back on their tanned backsides, take the pay off , smoke the cigars and let somebody else do the business. he he he he he

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 8:41:40 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

There`s a huge difference between partnership/fair-play,...and exploitation and land rape.

Ever heard of "blood diamonds"?

Should the west reward and support that crap or should we use our money and influence to fight it?

Should the west punish a company or nation that gives the bribes to the thugs/beasts?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We do have choices and can do the right thing,rather than the profitable thing.

And then ,maybe those things could be mutually inclusive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From past experience,I`m not counting on the west`s good will.

I mean, nation`s getting together,to do the right things for the worlds poor?...........

A bunch of sissy do-gooders worrying about the suffering ,hunger and disease poor of folks?.......

Like the UN?!!!!........

Damm liberals!!!!!..........



Yup, and the "U.N." sends "peacekeepers" and they end up raping people.
The West has been pouring in money to Africa for more than 40 years now through the "U.N." and most of that money has been stolen.
So, they've in fact *already had* a "Marshall Plan." Hundreds of $billions.
Funny how all those countries try to turn their problems into the problems of the U.S. or other Western countries.
Anymore Western money is not the answer. (see above)
The answer is that those countries need to start being responsable for their own people.
But, the easy road is always "more Western money" isn't it?
I just don't want my govt. getting involved in that type of thing.
What private citizens do with their own funds is their business.
And as for "Liberals" where do they get the connection that somehow people chopping each other up in Rwanda was the fault of "The West?"
If they were walking down the street and two guys poured out of a bar room beating on each other would they walk over and get involved in it?
I could never understand how people who don't agree with the U.S. being in Iraq believe we should be in other countries doing the same thing.
"Motive" doesn't matter and Troops aren't "peace keepers."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/6/2008 8:48:00 AM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 9:29:58 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

No matter how carefully you chose your words LadyE Uncle Seeks gave you the explanation as to why Nam. and Bots. are relatively wealthy.
South African and European mining conglomerates. 



So, who buys the gold and ferrous metals which Zimbabwe exports?

Answer - the highest bidder (exactly as with the mineral exports of other countries), by which ever intermediary or other sales channel is used. And as commodities, the prices are set by the market. As such its only a matter of which sales channel one uses, as to what share of the final market price one receives.

If, like Zimbabwe one chooses to run the best sales channels out of town because they happen to be former colonial powers, then one might expect to suffer in the market since one's customer base is greatly reduced and one must sell at a lower price. If like Botswana and Namibia one preserve the best sales channels by accomodating those who have made the country their home (for right or wrong) then one might expect to prosper in the market.

Again its a matter of an ideology being applied at the expense of what's needed. Not a black and white issue.

Here are the facts from my handy Atlas;

Botswana
economy - diamonds, copper, nickel, salt
livestock, sorghum, maize, millet
exports - diamonds, copper, nickel, soda ash

Namibia
economy - meatpacking, fish processing, dairy products, diamonds, lead, zine
millet, sorghum, peanuts, livestock, fish
exports - diamonds, copper, gold, zinc

Zimbabwe
economy - coal, gold, platinum, steel, wood products, cement
corn, cotton, tobacco, wheat, sheep
export - cotton, tobacco, gold, ferroalloys

Whats interesting about this, is that all three countries seem equitably blessed with mineral wealth - yet only two of them seem to do well out of it. Only one is blessed with agricultural wealth - yet it is the poorest of the three in GDP per capita terms.

E


_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 11:07:47 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Further too Mugabe's successful restructuring of the farming industry so that highly productive farms now produce not much at all, as we speak dear old Robert is planning to lay his grubby little mitts on the mining industry .


It is frequently heard in pubs and black cabs that Mugabe's reforms destroyed Zim's agro-industry.  That is completely untrue.  The first 6-7 years after liberation saw a radical change - when black Zimbabweans were given land, the country's productivity went up 100% and the economy boomed at up to 6% annual growth. 

How short some memories are.  The main problem was and remains that the 7% who owned most of the land left vast amounts "to fallow", ie for rich tourists to shoot game on and generally live the life of a bygone era. 

I am so sleepy.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 11:16:18 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Whose land were they "given" ?
In fact a major part of the agreement formalising Zimbabwean independance was concerned with Land Reform.
The agreement said that nasty white Brits would provide the money for nice Mr Mugabe to buy out the white settler farmers. They wouldnt sell so I think Reality's claim, increased productivity due to early land reform, cannot be correct.
The trouble started in about 2000  when Mugabe actually tried and failed to use legal means to grab the land.
He then decided to send in the boys to make an offer that couldnt be refused and that is when the real precipitous downward slide began.

Reality: even I recognise you make some good posts , tho' I would never admit it in public, but in this case you are trying to defend the indefensible.
Why is that ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/6/2008 11:57:04 AM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 11:28:43 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		In a nutshell, if your father or grandfather decides he'd like a personal fiefdom in someone else's country, he's an adventurer and a crook.  If a subsequent popular revolution takes the country back, he should be grateful for his life and either leave or cooperate fully with the new government.  Being given a chance to retain most of their land was more generosity than they deserved.

Looted treasures should be returned to their rightful owners, whether they are paintings or property.  You can't keep stolen goods because they were left to you by your father.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 11:42:04 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		OK this is a jumpthrough, but here it is.

Fucking I am waiting for a response from the person who called me a moron, and CAPITALIZED IT. Fuck this mamby pamby bullshit. They don't have the skills. Anybody can plant a garden, but running a commercial farm is a bit different.

If all the schools taught there was spear chucking and basket weaving, what the fuck do you think is going to happen ? And don't lay that on me. I did not create the curriculum there, if there even is one.

They can't do it, it is fact. It has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with anything except fact. They are fucking starving. That is fact. What the fuck should I say now ?

You live in your fucking ivory towers and have no sense of what is going on among the unwashed and uneducated. I say kill them, and you shout in abhorrence to that, but when they come and rape your kids and take your shit it will be you calling for their death.

Come down here and live with me, I fucking triple dare you. Come see what it is like. I said nothing about race here, just come see it for yourself. Leave your fucking BMW at home, come and walk up the street with me. Come on., We are all equal right, that person who lives under a bridge is equal to a doctor right ?

You have good intentions so you think everybody is like you right ? WELCOME TO THE WORLD, they are not. They will kill you for your shoes. Proven FACT.

Come on down you unrealistic dreamers with egalitarian virtues, come with me for a time and we will fix that in one fell swoop. Come on down to reality. Come down to where I live. Come down and show me that you are right, but it is more likely that you will die trying.

You want facts, come. Zimbabwe is full of idiots, look at their leader, and I will say it now, look at us. The Bush family is a bunch of idiots, not one of them can run an oil company, a state, a bank or a country. Look at the results.

I'll go back and read the rest, but I say this much, anyone who calls mea moron is not qualified to do so. That person has mail, and I eagerly await the response.

I could be a knuckle dragging redneck, but if anyone calls me stupid in any way after reading me, it is clear to see that there is something wrong with them.

T

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 11:53:23 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Zimbabwe is not full of idiots; your chair is.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 11:55:46 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
In a nutshell, if your father or grandfather decides he'd like a personal fiefdom in someone else's country, he's an adventurer and a crook.  If a subsequent popular revolution takes the country back, he should be grateful for his life and either leave or cooperate fully with the new government

this oddly enough is where Mugabe actually went to school
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutama_College
and institutions like this simply didnt exist until nasty whitey came along.
Had Mugabe not been a racist of the worst kind I believe he could have worked out compromise deals that in the long term should  have resulted in a power sharing arrangement while at the same time maintaining and increasing Zimbabwe's wealth
He chose to take the route of the Messianic demagogue and will sooner or later pay the price with, in the meantime, much suffering for the Zimbabwean people. Especially his political opponents.

quote:

Looted treasures should be returned...etc

The productive farms were not looted they were created.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/6/2008 12:01:45 PM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Zimbabwe's agony - 4/6/2008 11:56:45 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

In a nutshell, if your father or grandfather decides he'd like a personal fiefdom in someone else's country, he's an adventurer and a crook.  If a subsequent popular revolution takes the country back, he should be grateful for his life and either leave or cooperate fully with the new government.  Being given a chance to retain most of their land was more generosity than they deserved.

Looted treasures should be returned to their rightful owners, whether they are paintings or property.  You can't keep stolen goods because they were left to you by your father.


I agree with your sentiments RL but how far do we go back ? What about all the land conquered by the Zulus or the Shona ? The fact is almost anywhere on earth has been controlled by a foreign power at some point. The Zulu Empire under Shaka saw great and bloody expansionism, long before the settlers came. 

Term, i read your comment about England not letting white farmers into the UK. Anyone with a valid passport would have been allowed in and when Amin gave the Ugandan Asians 90 days to quit the country, the highest percentage where able to settle here.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Zimbabwe's agony Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094