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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/6/2005 3:29:01 PM

Kasia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

rub a cat backwards........

Huh..... you try doing that to one of mine - you will find out what the true meaning of evil means.

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/6/2005 5:30:35 PM

Wolfie648

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abuse - non consensual

discipline - punishment for bad behavior

reward - liked activity provided for above and beyond behavior

(My views here not everyone's) A slave cannot be abused - once she/he/other descriptor as required, has consented to give themselves over as a slave. They most certainly can be broken (emotionally and physically). Is that good or bad? That's up to the Owner to decide.

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/6/2005 10:01:22 PM

lonewolf05

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omigod...and i was just havin fun with the Sir...

sighs
lol

woofie

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/6/2005 10:26:39 PM

misskittyslave

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quote:

(My views here not everyone's) A slave cannot be abused - once she/he/other descriptor as required, has consented to give themselves over as a slave. They most certainly can be broken (emotionally and physically). Is that good or bad? That's up to the Owner to decide.

in response to wolfie i would like to respectfully reply the following of course its only my opinion but...when i say "broken" i mean in the sense of something negative abusive and damaging no dominant has the right to permanently damage property...while surrender is mutually consented upon abuse never is that is why i origionally said that a dominant should be untouchable in regards to allowing their power to corrupt them. is pain acceptable? of course is punishment (not for play but a "real punishment" enjoyable? of course not should either ever be abusive? NEVER

a slave CAN be abused just because he/she surrenders themselves in TPE there are still boundaries and a dominant should know responsible SANE limits. it is not acceptable for a dominant to drive a slave to suicide for example that is abuse of power, a dominant should not take the means for a slaves survival away then discgard him/her THAT is abuse and unacceptable. if a dominant beats their slave until they are cripple is that not abuse? YES it is so while most of Uus do not think along those terms and think rationally about keeping a submissive safe even when they are not enjoying a situation SOME do not and that is what concerns me and who i have had seeking advice from me those at SERIOUS risk of emotional and physical damage harm not pain not discomfort but damage and no amount of TPE can justify damaging someone beyond repair emotionally or physically

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/6/2005 10:47:23 PM

misskittyslave

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Lily when you said" My gift? I may vomit.

Your little fairy tale is not unlike ones I hear so often of the poor little subbie girl whose only desire is to serve the Dominant and have him take care of her every need. Get over it honey. The best submissives, the most appealing ones to Doms with their heads on straight are those who can support themselves, both practically and emotionally and actually have something to bring to the table. The little tale you paint rather nausiates me. "

the way i beleive is this in order to surrender ones power to another one must first own it...you cannot offer what you do not posess. a submissive is never to be used as a doormat. they are supposed to be strong compentant individuals who desire and are able to be strong enough to surrender their will to another who is worthy. as for basic needs i am refering to the self actualizing chart of a psychologist food shelter and love and i do use the term love in a general sense to mean human interaction in a meaningful way. studies have shown that for instance orphans who are not touched ever can die even if their needs of food and shelter are met adequately....

as for my expectations of a submissive...well i am glad you brought that up...he/she who chooses to acknowledge who they are and follow that path of submission is responsible to themselves to ensure their safety and find someone who wont hurt them and if perchance they make a mistake should be strong enough to walk away. i place a heavy responsability on submissives a dominant is there to guide and take care of him/her yes BUT they need to take care of themselves first if one cannot take care of themselves and claim responsability for their own actions they do not have the ability to service the needs of a dominant...

as for my choice to always lower case the "i" it is not lack of self worth at all for i am completely secure and proud of my submission. actually at times i am even a bit arrogant...it is something i choose to do because it pleases Master and it pleases me that i am able to do so...if He said always cap the i i would because one way or the other it doesnt change who i am a strong submissive who has learned to embrace my power own it claim it be responsible for it before i gave it to Him. and yes it has always been my intent to please and serve and not deserve a punishment i rather enjoy the flog for other reasons but i am human and make mistakes as such i beg to be corrected and am grateful for that opportunity to fix it and move on learning and growing with each step i take....and always with the intent of forward.
hope that clarifies my intent a bit...

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/6/2005 11:11:52 PM

pandoravampire

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I have absolutely no idea if this is right or not, coz i dont have the experience. But i see a bit of a difference in
being a submissive to plural dom/mes as play partners
and
being the ONLY submissive, to a Dom/me, living together within the dynamic chosen by both.

I am in the latter, and for me, that would be the more intense scenario. Anyone can be a play partner, but only one can be a life partner.
It is this particular life partner Dom/me that you could expect all of the 'fairy tale' from as you refer to it.
I expect that fairy tale, i expect romance of the highest intensity, i need these things. From a vanilla partner, id get this to some degree, from my Dom, i will get it all at a very intense level. With a play partner?, i dont know?, but i imagine, id get to submit for the time the scene took to play. I simply could not switch my need to submit off at that point?
It must be like a rollercoaster, is it? Unless your need is part time, then how are you healthy in this?
I am not meaning to offend anyone here, i truly do believe in fairies, always have. I actually am one of the ones that has fallen for this fairy tale, and im a hopeless romantic, so dont want to give it up thankyou. But i respect that its not your dream and thats fine.
But i am having the best relationship that ive EVER had. Far more intense, with all the care and support love and attendance of my needs, in amoungst my submission to him, just like she says it should be in the original post. Its what keeps me close to him.

But im a old fart, and way past the multiple partner is ok generation. So for me, it was always gonna be forever. Aim high i was told by a very wise woman, i did. I got it.
I need all of the D/s dynamic, not just the sexual play or sm play.
Im unable to submit to people i want to play with. I may be physically attracted to them, ill even top them, but i wont submit. It took a very special person to do that for me. Only one has come along in my journey. To fritter it as a play partner, parting at the end of the scene and risk losing this opportunity?

Ive always viewed it as, its because i am older and wiser, that i expect the fairy tale. I dont settle for less these days. Life is too short.

well that was a bit of a rant eh? sorry

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/6/2005 11:19:50 PM

misskittyslave

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absolutely pandora!! be it poly or monogomous never settle!! find S/someone in this world that is going to make you feel complete...Master once told me when i said what can i as a submissive do for You who is Dominant and i had no idea at the time (i was still quite innocent to it all) He replied a Dominant needs a submissive as much as a submissive needs someone to serve.

i learned and try now to teach others that submission is for the strong actually i modify that thought this whole lifestly should be for the strong and secure. and no one on any level should settle for less than they deserve nor should anyone be taken advantage of in either role.

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 7:02:46 AM

ProtagonistLily

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

But it's not accurately quoted. And the tennants behind what Lord Acton was talking about have nothing to do with relationships.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Lord Acton referring to the Power in Political Circles?

Indeedy he was. Lord Acton issued warnings that political power is the most serious threat to liberty Lord Acton

I've never felt that my personal liberty was threatened by Sir. Conversely, I've found being with him entirely liberating.

Lily

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 7:16:59 AM

ProtagonistLily

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quote:

ProtagonistLily
===============

yes. You have freedom of speech. no i do not have the right to tell You what You can do or not.

but really? is this necessary? someone--anyone--comes on here looking for help...even if it means YOU have an issue with it...it is NOT right to jump down someone's throat.
why can't You Ladies be nice and still make a message heard?
and people ask ME why "I" have an issue with others? oh come on.
even "I" wouldnt deliberately attack someone just coz i put caps on my name...
i think You COULD have been nicer...couldn't You?

is THAT the msg YOU want people to think of when they see YOUR name? someone that attacks ? i THOUGHT you people with caps are SUPPOSED TO set an example...

yeah ok. maybe////////// i am out of turn here myself......but i KNOW i have seen You BE nicer before. hell even YOU posted a nice reply to some of MY stupid questions that others have experience in but i didnt.

i HOPE You will be better in the future? i know i have seen better posts of Yours.

========
Wolfie:

Being a female sub, who has managed to get off her fat ass and be in the lifestyle and around other female submissives, I find that the worst thing you can do is placate this sort of self deprecating behavior. In real life, I just ignore these girls. They generally are happy in their state of 'distressed damsalness' and that's perfectly ok with me. It impacts me not one iota.

However, when you post this kind of sad view on a message board, I think it's important to have someone point out that there are other views out there.

I personally abhor the idea that the Big Bad All Powerful Dom is just an abuser in sheeps clothing; Do I think that some men and women who identify as Dominant are abusers? Yes, of course, just like some husbands/wives are abusers. However, to make a broad, sweeping generalization that all are like this sets my teeth on edge.

Could I have been nicer? Sure. I might have taken a differant tact if the OP hadn't been so firm in her assessment of all situations the way she is. Like, as they say, begets like, and I found the OP to be equally firm in her accusations about D/s relationships as my rebuttel. I realize you think I'm a meanie, but I don't really care.

Bottom line here, as others have pointed out, is that sometimes folks, both tops and bottoms, mistake co-dependant relationships for D/s dynamic. Healthy relationships have characteristics about them, regardless of whether they are vanilla or D/s. Same goes for co-dependant relationships.

I feel slighted when someone who doesn't know me tries to characterize me and my relationships as some kind of fucked up abusive situation, and that characterization tends to raise my hackles so to speak. I don't appreciate being insulted like that. Perhaps that's where the tone of my response came from.

Regardless, I stand by the things that I said. I don't really have to care what people here think about me. I have been fortunate to make friends here who I've met in real life, who've gotten to know me and don't think I'm some rancid bitch. And for the others who I will never meet, they may think what ever they wish.

The important thing for me, when responding to a post, is that I'm true to myself, and am honest in my posting, sharing my experiences as accurately as I can, in the hopes that someone, somewhere might benefit.

To me, that's all that's important.

Lily

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 7:24:20 AM

ProtagonistLily

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quote:

a submissive is never to be used as a doormat.

And what of those of us who enjoy objectification play?

Lily

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 7:24:55 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

The important thing for me, when responding to a post, is that I'm true to myself, and am honest in my posting, sharing my experiences as accurately as I can, in the hopes that someone, somewhere might benefit.

To me, that's all that's important.

Lily

Frankly, knowing you you CAN post, I thought it was downright tepid, and exactly the right tone to take in response.

But I'm just a chick on a screen.

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 8:05:51 AM

misskittyslave

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in response to objectification play well....of course i have engaged in being an object and it has been a most fulfilling role however when i state being used as a doormat i meant something entirely different meaning the perverbeal doormat...a D/s relationship can be a most magnificant and liberating experience as long as Bboth parties are secure and strong in themselves.

in my own personal relationshp with Master i have found joy and freedom in my submission i have found peace and contentment like none other i could ever experience...it is my hope that all relationships could be that way...my origional post however is not for those that are like mine but regarding those that sadly are hurtful.

each relatinship is unique so when i say like mine i mean specifically ...happy and fulfilling not mimicking what He and i share T/together. W/we all have different interests some like knife play some like armpit sex (yes for those that do not know what it is i have had encounters with those who indeed a fettish for it, i dont understand it but if it follows safe sane and consentual i am all for it) my only problem with things comes from when things stop beng safe and sane...when the slavery becomes entrapment...when it is no longer healthy but when it becomes unhealthy...

as a slave i have given complete control to Master with the knowledge that He will encourage me to be strong and independent and never cause me harm...pain yes harm no way...relationships of any sort should help peope grown shouldnt they?

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 9:01:32 AM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave

...relationships of any sort should help peope grown shouldnt they?

Actually, this also depends on the relationship. Some people don't want their relationship to be about growth. That's one reason that I'm pretty clear that we are a growth-oriented House -- I've met a substantial number of submissives and more than a few slaves who really don't care if their personal growth is directed by their Sig Other or their Dominant (who may be one and the same) or not, and submissives who say, specifically, that they don't -want- to grow through the experience of the relationship. They just want to do their thing with someone who had a counterpart pleasure, and they'll handle their own growth, thank-you-very-much.

In the end, we cannot count on relationships to provide our growth. Growth is a very personal, and very isolated experience. No matter how much we are guided, directed and taught, the growth and learning have to come from the individual in question. Otherwise, all of the teaching is just wasted words and ideas. We also have to be completely -responsible- for our own growth. If we are not growing, it isn't our relationship's fault -- it is our own responsibility to make sure that we are doing what we need to do to grow.

Everything that constitutes safety and sanity are subjective. What constitutes those things for you does not necessarily constitute them for me... and the things that seem risky or insane to me may make perfect sense and seem perfectly well planned and controlled to you. It is one reason that I don't use nor promote "safe, sane, consentual" in our household, but use information/feedback loops extensively. Each situation is unique to the individuals participating, and so each situation needs its own loop to assure that everyone is on the same page, aware of the benefits, the risks, and a conscious participant in the process of making things happen.

Lady Zephyr

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 9:19:52 AM

Evanesce

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quote:

discipline - punishment for bad behavior

I have a significantly different definition of discipline. Punishment is a correction for bad behavior. Discipline is a pattern of behavior, or self control, attained through training and education.

Denise
the Kaptin's wench

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 10:31:28 AM

Soulhuntre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
can a someone serve if thier needs are not met? how can a submissive give a dominant their desire if they have not the basics necessities of life first.

I have a feeling (again) that you and I would disagree on what is a "need".

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
it is like asking a starving homeless person to feed you a banquet but ordering them to not eat instructing them to fluff your pillows when they are exposed to the rawest of elements unsheltered and disgarded.

I wouldn't really consider any of that out of line with property.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
a submissive offers their gift to a dominant out of love and trust that they will be taken care of emotionally and physically what besat on this planet would not wander or search for a greener pasture if they were being starved to death?

People are more complicated than beasts and they often do things for ideals that are beyond the understanding and ability of simple beasts. This is what makes owning humans more useful than owning animals or hiring servants.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
yes punishments should be unleasant BUT they should NEVER be abusive...

I am SURE we would disagree on what constitutes abuse :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
my Master in the pst has had to give me long term punishments but even while being punished i always felt loved and safe.

I am sure that at times my girls don't feel safe. I fully expect then to function anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
i was taught by Master M that dominance comes from a place of trust and respect it must be earned to break a submissives will is abuse... to break-through to their heart and have them surrender with joy is what a real dominant aspires to

Dominance is a description of a power dynamic - it carries with it no ethical requirements or pre-requisits.

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 1:26:27 PM

misskittyslave

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quote:

Dominance is a description of a power dynamic - it carries with it no ethical requirements or pre-requisits.

i STRONGLY disagree with that a dominant has no ethical requirements or pre-requisits. it is most DEFINATELY a dominants responsability to keep their property safe...comfortable is different but SAFE is imperitive let N/none of U/us ever forget that ....

while a dominants job is not to be easy unless it pleases them to be it IS Their job to ensure safety at all times which is after all why most of U/us have safewords BUT sometimes even then if a sub is in subspace should a dominant not be able to guage what is safe if a sub cannot reply or know at that given time what is in their best interest?

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 1:30:51 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
i STRONGLY disagree with that a dominant has no ethical requirements or pre-requisits. it is most DEFINATELY a dominants responsability to keep their property safe...comfortable is different but SAFE is imperitive let N/none of U/us ever forget that ....

What about dominants who make it the slaves responsiblity to take care and keep the dominant safe?

quote:

even then if a sub is in subspace should a dominant not be able to guage what is safe if a sub cannot reply or know at that given time what is in their best interest?

If a sub is given a safeword and agrees to use it, then its her responsibility to stay aware so that she can use it properly. If she doesn't feel she can use it properly, she needs to let the dominant know beforehand.

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 1:33:55 PM

JustaTop

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Dominance in it's pure form is merely about controlling another's actions. It has nothing to do with any ethical construct.

And the "responsibility" of the Dominant is never anything more than what was agreed upon at the outset,or redefined mutually later on. Some submissive personnas enjoy the feeling of intsensity that comes from having a Dominant that many would find quite abusive. Again,it is thier choice.

Not everyone happens to fit into the cozy little shoebox you wish to define as "proper D/s", misskittyslave.

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 1:48:39 PM

misskittyslave

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quote:

What about dominants who make it the slaves responsiblity to take care and keep the dominant safe?

good question in what ways are you referring?

and yes a sub should let a dom know whenever possible if they are going to not be able to safeword but also a dom should know occassionally for one reason or another a sub wont safeword and should insist on stopping anyway...

a really long time ago i was in a scene with someone i have played with for years and trusted so much and He put me into the most incredible subspace i couldnt talk i could only do...i can be a heavy masochist and the Dominant being responsible stopped the scene before serious damage occurred to me i could have gone on for hours being beaten that day i loved it so much BUT He took responsability and felt when i had enough He paid attention to the welts i had making sure i was safe.... with the same Dominant i was punished and since i am a masochist physical punishment isnt always going to work so it was an emotinal one again He made sure that while punishing me emotionally i was left in tact and repairable....was being punished enjoyable OH HELL NO it hurt deeply BUT it left no damage

i was also in a different relatinship where i witnessed other heinous things where damage did occur i was strong enough to say goodbye while slave i am not the perverbial doormat i know the difference between abuse and punishment and discipline i have been on both ends a good relationship and a seriously BAD one. now i reach out to others and offer them support to be strong walk away from abuse and find somone who will Dom/me in a healthy way i also train subs so that they can know the difference beweten responsible tops and what is abuse and the responsabilities of being bottoms

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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 1:51:11 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
good question in what ways are you referring?

Whenever the slave drives the master anywhere, she needs to keep them safe and protected. Perhaps when they are out walking, its the slaves job to stay alert and make sure things are going fine. Perhaps it's the slaves job to protect the finances of the household and make sure things are going well there.

I could go on.

quote:

and yes a sub should let a dom know whenever possible if they are going to not be able to safeword but also a dom should know occassionally for one reason or another a sub wont safeword and should insist on stopping anyway...

Oh so a slave gets to lie and lack responsibility making the dominant not only have to be a mind reader but be the bad guy when its the sub who doesn't do what they say they will do?

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