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RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 1:55:55 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Emerald, you are lovely,and in more than one way.

I wish more were like you,and realized that a relationship is mutual,and carries mutual responsibility. So many seem to carry this image within them of being children,and having the poor top carry the entire burden.......and then act upset when that burden becomes so heavy, that they are forced to drop it out of pure self preservation.

And then repeat the pattern,over and over. And an ever increasing string of men who are in many cases,very ethical and caring, now become *abusers*.......

Odd,very odd,where does it end?

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 2:26:54 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		when a slave is a cahuffer it is their responsability to keep alert and safe of course...and as for the other i am saying that while a top is NOT a mind reader and a sub should ALWAYS communicate occassionally there are time when a top might need to know when to say you had enough...i hope that makes sense

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(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 3:07:57 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I wish more were like you,and realized that a relationship is mutual,and carries mutual responsibility. So many seem to carry this image within them of being children,and having the poor top carry the entire burden.......and then act upset when that burden becomes so heavy, that they are forced to drop it out of pure self preservation.

And then repeat the pattern,over and over. And an ever increasing string of men who are in many cases,very ethical and caring, now become *abusers*.......


i always have maintained that it is a shared responsability but the origional post is NOT about those of U/us that ARE responsable...it is about those that are not AND THAT is what troubles me...i find that sometimes good subs enter into bad relationships with promises of being kept safe. (note i also have found bad subs who promise much and deliver nothing to tops) the thread i started is about when a good sub finds him/herself in a bad relationship that on onset seemed so promising then what? when she/he has felt safe did his/her best to please and found that the person she entrusted and believed in abused them....they sometimes recognize alright this is not my fault and walk away or sometimes in effort to fix it hang on trying to see what they could have done better to make it right. for those that have never been abused in or out of bdsm it is hard to see their perspective of how do i stop this cycle. for those that have been abused and walk away they know how hard it is and should be applauded and for those that stay well that i try to reach out to and encourage to find strength to take responsability for themselves and leave... i hope that clears up a few things

i do not believe in pity parties of "oh why does this happen to me again and again" if it has then examine why. dont jump from relationship to relationship find out why and dont repeat that mistake again. seek someone out who can help you figure it out who can encourage you who has your best interest in mind with no self motive lets face it sometimes bad things do happen to good people and fortunately sometimes when that happens they reach out to me or others who wont criticize or condescend but will actually help by listening and offering moral support to do what is best to keep them safe. as slave i often have heard the oh so you just want to be a weak mindless abused drone speal but my Master said if iHe wanted a doormat He could go get one cheap He wants a strong slave so that my submission is meaningful and valuable. BUT that is because HE has acecpted HIS role of resonsability towards me and i in return have accepted my responsability of keeping His property safe and valuable and when i cannot articulate how i feel He has taken the time to get to know my needs and provides them despite Him not being a mind reader...so with Uus it is a shared responsability. AGAIN i reiterate this post is about those who are not fortunate enough to be in a healthy relationship but those who are good subs in bad relationships

furthermore i was in a house once where i accepted dominance obeyed commands serviced needs and pleased desires. the dom in the house promised to keep my emotional and physical well being in the forefront of his mind at all times...however that dom though promised to provide my physical and emotional safety and talked the talk of being a good dom wasnt and i got hurt. i left. i took responsability for myself. that is what i am talking about E.everyone!!! im talking about those who do what is right and still are wronged still are abused hurt misled when trust is broken. FORTUNATELY for me i have Master M who for the last three years has shown me what a TRUE Master is who takes responsability follows through and is a good Master and Man and now i reach out to others to teach the lessons of what i have learned the hard way. can bdsm be abusive by unworthy dominants sadly, YES ...can it be the most amazing experience with responsible ones MOST DEFINATELY...being on both sides of that situation i learned that lesson well.

lately i have heard some really sad stories by some amazingly strong submissives. who realized they were being wronged and im proud of them for taking responsability of their safety and walking away. i also have heard the most beautiful stories lately of those who have strong relationships (not perfect but wonderful nonetheless) and that offers me hope. sadly however i hear also from those who seem lost and do not know what to do and all i can do is encourage them to be strong and take responsability for themselves.... some people feel if they can wield a whip they are a dom no not the case it takes wisdom and strength of character. to the doms that take offense thinking i was attacking them i apologize i do not generalize well apparently for that was all i was trying to say obviously not ALL doms are bad i do not recall one place where i said that i thought i was stating SOMETIMES bad things happen to good people ( Master says i often use too many words and by the fifth sentence have gone so off track He can barely follow me blushes i try my best Master You know i do)

< Message edited by misskittyslave -- 10/7/2005 3:46:23 PM >

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(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 3:21:09 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		The biggest issue here is the rose colored glasses syndrome.

This prevents you from seeing the whole of who someone actually is,by superimposing an image of who one would LIKE them to be. This is the reason that holding fantasy constructs of the 'ideal partner' in your head is very dangerous.

So quit doing it-you will be dealing with a PERSON, not a fantasy person.

How many girls I have seen in profiles describing thier "right dom" down to fine details.......how convenient for an actual predator. It gives a clear script,and all he has to do is act the part-till he has her hooked. At which time,the mask gradually begins to drop and she says, "Oh my,this isn't really *daddy* at all".

I'll give you ladies out there a tip. Don't post this silly altruistic crap in your profiles. Be a bit more vague,but post some safeguards. Like "My relatives are around a lot, and they tend to interfere with people they think are bad influences."

Or, rather than posting "I"m no doormat!' (which really accomplishes nothing,except to say you have fear baggage),say something along the lines of "I have specific ethical requirements of a partner-and he will be gone immediately , the first time he breaks one..Here they are."

Remember,in many cases, you do get what you put up with. Don't make the nest seem inviting to one who will only soil it.

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/7/2005 3:56:42 PM >

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 3:54:17 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		JustaTop

i think that some of those suggestions that You offered subs were very very wise thank You most kindly hopefully alot of people will be helped by what You said so wisely and succinctly...

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(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 4:01:27 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		The same advice applies to tops.

Predators do not inhabit only one side of the fence kitty. They range wherever they see a weakness.

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 4:06:02 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		very very true indeed i have had those occassions as well where i took in those subs to train and they have taken advantage of that sadly...there are bad subs just as there are bad tops and no one in any position should be taken advantage of or hurt

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(=^.^=) www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com


(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 5:03:55 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Tell me about it,I have booted out my share of those too.

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 5:35:08 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		yes i had to as well and it was NOT pretty

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(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 5:42:27 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Laughs

Indeed,hell hath no fury......

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 6:00:26 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		tell me about it the aftermath of her is still being cleaned up rolls eyes....

_____________________________

(=^.^=) www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com


(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 6:14:31 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Oh well,alls well that finally ends!

No more DRAMA.

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 6:32:01 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		i hear You loud and clear i hate drama and confrontation i much prefer a nice quiet life smiles softly

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(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 7:02:03 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		One of the problems and yet strengths of such debates as this, is that we all will have a tendency to post, reply or even disagree using our own experiences and probably our own biases as a base. What this does in a positive way is to bring to the table a wide range of human feelings, anger, compassion and a desire to help. The negative aspects, is that all too often the cold hard logic of investigation and separating issues into logical components goes by the board. There are thus some who have the ability to dissect the replies and take what they deem valuable and apply that to their own issues or gain a better overview of the subject and even gain more compassion for others who have differing ways of living. There are many who are emotionally motivated and will tend toward the “mob mentality” (Off topic example: I have an acquaintance who has some street smarts, huge ego but not the brightest globe in the box, who was an avid watcher of Judge Judy and believed her rulings applied to Australian situations).
I don’t buy into debates such as this after I’ve made my own statement in the early stages for one simple reason…. I do not pretend to understand submissives nor have I any experience with them…. All my experience is with slaves and specifically Gorean Slaves. We do see things differently. Even at the one munch I attended, much of the conversations were so far out of my understanding (and probably interest range too) that I did what I do socially and retreat with a large whisky and sat and observed the personal interactions from the view of a Psychologist rather than a Gorean Master.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/7/2005 10:16:06 PM   
Soulhuntre


Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
i STRONGLY disagree with that a dominant has no ethical requirements or pre-requisits. it is most DEFINATELY a dominants responsability to keep their property safe...comfortable is different but SAFE is imperitive let N/none of U/us ever forget that ....


Thats OK... you are certainly entitled to your views on what makes someone a good dominant, or a responsible dominant. That is an opinion for each to form on their own. However human history clearly shows that people can be dominant over others without caring one whit for their well being, or having their interests in mind at all.

Part of the problem is that I don't use an (to me artificial) seperation between the concept of dominance as used in the rest of the world and the idea of a "BDSM dominant" - dominance is dominance. Evil people can become dominant over others, thus clearly the concept of dominance is not one with moral or ethical components.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
while a dominants job is not to be easy unless it pleases them to be it IS Their job to ensure safety at all times which is after all why most of U/us have safewords


This is certainly true for most, but not all relationships. There are relationships where the safety of the submissive is not considered the top priority.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
BUT sometimes even then if a sub is in subspace should a dominant not be able to guage what is safe if a sub cannot reply or know at that given time what is in their best interest?


I would certainly not leave it up to my property to decide what is best for my house, or for them.

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/8/2005 1:35:02 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre

I would certainly not leave it up to my property to decide what is best for my house, or for them.


In the case where I may decide to add another slave to the home, I certainly want imput from all members. If for no other reason that I like to be forwarned of any potential difficumties. Assuming I already have a girl in a personal collar and that she is possibly the first girl and as such will have the responcibility of specified areas of training to oversee (under my supervision), her views have some importance but less than those of my Wife.Free Companion, however a new girl would have to pass the scrutiny of my malamute too. If they dont get on, we look for another girl. All this being said it will be remembered by the entire house that I have the final decision which when made is not open for debate.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Soulhuntre)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/8/2005 10:31:53 AM   
Soulhuntre


Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
have to pass the scrutiny of my malamute too. If they dont get on, we look for another girl. All this being said it will be remembered by the entire house that I have the final decision which when made is not open for debate.


There you. Gather input, gather information. But when push comes to shove, only one person makes the choice.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/8/2005 1:32:20 PM   
misskittyslave


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
have to pass the scrutiny of my malamute too. If they dont get on, we look for another girl. All this being said it will be remembered by the entire house that I have the final decision which when made is not open for debate.


There you. Gather input, gather information. But when push comes to shove, only one person makes the choice.

THAT is exactly my point...the submissive TRUSTS that the DOMINANT will make the final decision (she is not mindless had her say when asked) therefore to tie this all together finally, i go back to it is the DOMINANTS responsability to keep the emotinal and physical well being of the slave and His/Her house healthy and in order

of course if He/She is unable or unwilling keep those in Thier care healthy and safe the sub should pack up and leave.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Soulhuntre)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/8/2005 3:25:20 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre


quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
i STRONGLY disagree with that a dominant has no ethical requirements or pre-requisits. it is most DEFINATELY a dominants responsability to keep their property safe...comfortable is different but SAFE is imperitive let N/none of U/us ever forget that ....


Thats OK... you are certainly entitled to your views on what makes someone a good dominant, or a responsible dominant. That is an opinion for each to form on their own. However human history clearly shows that people can be dominant over others without caring one whit for their well being, or having their interests in mind at all.

Part of the problem is that I don't use an (to me artificial) seperation between the concept of dominance as used in the rest of the world and the idea of a "BDSM dominant" - dominance is dominance. Evil people can become dominant over others, thus clearly the concept of dominance is not one with moral or ethical components.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
while a dominants job is not to be easy unless it pleases them to be it IS Their job to ensure safety at all times which is after all why most of U/us have safewords


This is certainly true for most, but not all relationships. There are relationships where the safety of the submissive is not considered the top priority.

quote:

ORIGINAL: misskittyslave
BUT sometimes even then if a sub is in subspace should a dominant not be able to guage what is safe if a sub cannot reply or know at that given time what is in their best interest?


I would certainly not leave it up to my property to decide what is best for my house, or for them.



Soulhuntre Sir, i almost clapped after reading your words above. Your views on this particular issue mirror those of my Master and i.
too often (particularly online, as that is really the only place i encounter such beliefs/values), many in this lifestyle seem to confuse what it means to be a good or perhaps "honorable" Dominant, with what it means to simply be a Dominant. a Dominant simply is...he may have a heart of gold and treat those under his power with kindness and compassion always...or he may be a cold-hearted abuser who treats those under his care like so much dog poo on his shoes. neither is any more or less true a Dominant.

my Master has no obligations to me. He may choose to keep me safe and protected...or he may choose not to. both are his right and his whim, and however he chooses to treat me he is regardless a true Dominant, and true Master.

(in reply to Soulhuntre)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: discipline or abuse - 10/8/2005 4:23:32 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		misskittyslave,

I can appreciate the sentiment of your OP, and it's a nice way to look at things, but in general, it's idealistic - and we don't live in an ideal world.

There is a difference between saying 'This is how I do it' and saying 'This is how you should do it' or 'This is how everyone should do it'.

Thing is, everyone is different. Not all subs feel the way you do and not all Doms feel the way your Dom does. Do I think that a Dom/me should be responsible for the well-being of his/her sub? Sure, if that's what he/she wants to do. Likewise, I think subs should expect from their Doms exactly what the Dom says they are willing to provide. If you, as a sub, don't like what's offered, then you know what you should do - move on and find a suitable match. It's not fair for either party to expect the other to conform to their ideals unless they've expressed a willingness to do so beforehand. If a Dom has his way of doing things, don't expect to get him to change that. At the same time, if a sub says she's not willing to change herself, it's quite likely she won't.

Personally, I don't want to have to depend on someone else for my health, safety and well-being. The nice thing is, I CAN depend on him. I don't have to, but he's proven to me that he can be one I depend on. If he were to cease to exist tomorrow, I'm still here.

How does a sub say that her needs are/aren't being met if she can't/won't take care of them herself? What does she do when she doesn't have a dom?

I believe that the ultimate responsibility for the life of each adult falls to him or herself. It is up to me to determine whether I'm safe, happy, and fulfilled. If I feel my life is lacking, it is also up to me to make the changes necessary. I shouldn't have to look to someone to decide those things, since they are subjective, and I am the only one who can truly KNOW how I feel.

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to misskittyslave)
Profile   Post #: 60
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