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RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 12:03:16 AM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

i think the main thing here is to offer hope, guidance about raising children, and respect MsChief's decision to have her baby, even if it's alone. should she have the father's help, then all the better definitely; kids do best with two parents. but either way, i think the best thing is to focus on solutions, not blame. she's decided to have her baby, so i don't see the harm in wishing her the best with it and letting her know how precious children are.

I agree, except don't think it's fair everyone is dumping blame and responsibility on her sub, which I thought unfair/unjust, and therefore the reason I responded.
I definitely wish her and the baby a peaceful and healthy pregancy/life. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to girl4you2)

Post #: 61

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 3:11:21 AM

MsChief

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

We haven't heard from the man in this situation, and I'm not sure how anyone can make judgments about what happened without hearing his side of the story. This is starting to become a pretty ugly rumorfest, with everyone taking potshots at a man they don't know and who has been described only by someone who feels injured.

And please, before you start flaming me: I'm not DEFENDING the man;

I feel as bad for the OP as anyone else, but she had as much to do with what happened as he did (if not MORE); if she came on here just to get people to bash her new baby's father, the strategy seems to have worked just fine. And that doesn't reflect very well on any of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

You DONT need him and DONT need him in your kids life.

Thank you L&M for your comments, which as with all the others have been greatly appreciated.
I did not come on here to 'bash' the father. Anything but! If I was a hard bitch of a Domme then I would tell him where to go as he has shown his place is not at MY feet as a submissive by his actions. What I was looking for was to know maybe that I am not alone in all this as the one person who knows my lifestyle intimately is no longer there for me. I have lost a relationship which I thought was special. I struggle more with this than the pregnancy issue.

It has been good to hear the 'other' side. The male perspective which is also what I was hoping for. I agree that he is going to have a child in this world he does not want and is reluctant to take responsibility for. I am the type of person who would rather have this child alone than have some begrude it's existance.
As I have said, this happened to me 20 years ago and I have a beautiful daughter. That was not a D/s relationship but the point I am making is that I chose the baby. I walked away and left behind a man I had known for 4 years, I never asked him for a single penny towards her upbringing and none was never offered. The last time I spoke to him was on the day she was born to tell him I had a girl. He asked what it had to do with him and as a naive 21 year old I said 'nothing' and that was that.

Which brings me to the D/s aspect. This was a man who begged for my collar, who called me his Goddess and Mistress. I guess I just hoped for better from this man. He is part of the collar me community and can obviously post here.....but this is not the idea. I do not want a public display of flames. Maybe he would like to start his own topic? I personally wish him well, he is obviously in a place he doesnt want to be. I can only say I am there for him should he need me.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 62

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 4:29:08 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsChief
Which brings me to the D/s aspect. This was a man who begged for my collar, who called me his Goddess and Mistress. I guess I just hoped for better from this man. He is part of the collar me community and can obviously post here.....but this is not the idea. I do not want a public display of flames. Maybe he would like to start his own topic? I personally wish him well, he is obviously in a place he doesnt want to be. I can only say I am there for him should he need me.

I don't think you can say he's done anything wrong anymore than a woman who DOES decide to terminate the pregnancy. He has his values and priorities, if he'd wanted to sire children this entire post wouldn't have happened. It's not WRONG that he doesn't want to sire children, it's not WRONG that he wants to end the pregnancy now.

You both did a stupid thing, and now you both have to deal with it.

(in reply to MsChief)

Post #: 63

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 9:24:03 AM

Nicky

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

Not just the two of them "have to deal with it" EmeraldSlave2 -- now there's a child that has to deal with it. How about this -- let's start a new thread entitled "Absent fathers -- how were you affected?" Let's put it under "ask a submissive" and see how many people respond. I know I for one would probably not be in this lifestyle if the most important man in my life had not abandoned me. I'm not whining -- just stating fact. More than two people will be affected by the actions of these two -- and both are responsible.

Nicky

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 64

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 1:38:11 PM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

It takes two to make a baby, he wanted the play but no pay. Even at the point of ejaculation he could have called red.

Ejaculation does not have to occur to create a pregnancy. As LadyZephyr said, the highest concentration of active sperm are in the precum. That means that tens and hundreds of thousands of sperm are already swimming frantically toward your egg(s?) before he's even close to ejaculating. And it only takes one to fertilize an egg.

Theoretically, the vagina doesn't even have to be penetrated.....if precum were dripped or wiped near the vaginal opening, some sperm could still possibly find their way up the river to spawn.

If it's a risky time, and you really don't want to raise a child, and are ethically opposed to abortion, then at least use a condom! I know they're not foolproof either, but at least you can say you tried. Withdrawl is useless as a method of birth control.

I do wish you the best, though, MsChief.

windchymes

BTW, I'm a medical lab tech, I do semen analysis for both infertility and post-vasectomy as part of my job.

(in reply to Nicky)

Post #: 65

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 2:50:44 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Good idea--why don't you start it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicky

How about this -- let's start a new thread entitled "Absent fathers -- how were you affected?" Let's put it under "ask a submissive" and see how many people respond.

(in reply to Nicky)

Post #: 66

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 3:10:32 PM

luvdragonx

Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

BlkTall and LaM brought up some good points that I hadn't thought through, so I thank you for that.

If you leave D/s out of this situation, I still feel that a man or woman doesn't want children, the only way to guarantee that is to avoid having sex.

There is a fine line between being willing to risk something happening (or not) and wanting that something to happen (or not).

I don't want to get a speeding ticket, and while I can hope no cops are around if I do speed, the guaranteed way not to get one is to drive the speed limit.
I don't want to be known as dishonest, and while I can hope no one catches me in a lie, I'm better off just being truthful.
I don't want to get fired, and I can hope they don't catch me coming in late all the time, the best thing to do is be on time.

If we're talking about this situation in a D/s sense, then no, it's not fair to say that the sub SHOULD stay. Part of the play includes risk awareness and according to MsChief, they were both aware. If the situation were reversed and the sub got pregnant, would we say that she should stay in a situation that she didn't want t to be in? Probably not. Pregnancy aside, if any sub were to take a risk in D/s play and afterward discover the result of that risk was too much, would we fault the sub for refusing to continue? Do we fault the Dom for the unwanted outcome, even when the sub was aware of the risks beforehand?

It's hard to lay blame on either side because if both are risk-aware, both are conscious of the possible outcomes, and supposedly willing to deal with that outcome. By the same token, how each deals with it can't be determined because each person is an individual. This is a big, life changing outcome though, so I hope and pray that both MsChief and her sub make the best of the situation.

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 67

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 3:20:13 PM

sting516

Posts: 505
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: long island, ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

I don't think you can say he's done anything wrong anymore than a woman who DOES decide to terminate the pregnancy. He has his values and priorities, if he'd wanted to sire children this entire post wouldn't have happened. It's not WRONG that he doesn't want to sire children, it's not WRONG that he wants to end the pregnancy now.

You both did a stupid thing, and now you both have to deal with it.

While i agree, it's not wrong for him to want the pregancy ended...Ms Chief seems to want this child, or feels it's not ethical in Her view to end the pregnancy...and that's really where the discussion ends...the sub is responsible for his actions, whether he wishes it or not...when i was in my 20s, i was in a similar situation in a vanilla relationship...on the very night i told the woman i was seeing that i wished to break up with her, she told me she thought she might be pregnant...she was brought up a strict Catholic, so an abortion would be out of the question for her...at the time, i was not seeking to be a father, but when this was presented to me, i told her that i would step up to the plate financially...and would want to see my child...be a part of it's life...this is what this sub needs to do...and who knows...as the pregnancy progesses, perhaps his opinion will change on the subject...as it turned out, the ex-girlfriend wasn't pregnant, and all the rest became moot...in a lot of ways, i wish she had been pregnant...especially since i never did become a father...and also because she never became a mother...which is something i know she wanted (medical problems made it difficult for her)...but what's done it done.

Ms Chief, i wish You the best in Your pregnancy...the concern you show now...especially the not wanting this to be a flame war on your one time sub, makes me think you'll make a wonderful caring mother for the child growing inside of you.

Best of luck,

sting

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 68

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 8:22:48 PM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

quote:

Good idea--why don't you start it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicky

How about this -- let's start a new thread entitled "Absent fathers -- how were you affected?" Let's put it under "ask a submissive" and see how many people respond.

How about we start a thread on "Bad fathers - how were you affected?" Or "Fathers who didnt want to be"

i had two fathers, one step one biological. Both of them crap. One wanted no part of my life and the other hated kids. How about we start a thread "Fathers who could care less about their kids, yet forced into their life by their mothers"

i had two bad fathers.. it sucked knowing they didnt give a rats ass. My unmentionable didnt have a father. He didnt want to be, so i let him walk. She's a happy, healthy, loving, sweet, yet abit undisciplined, intelligent little person. No ill affects other then MY worry about how it would affect her.

But guess what? There is this AWESOME guy in her life, that truely and dearly wanted to be a father to her. She's got two loving parents. What she doesnt have is knowing some one that SHOULD love her, doesnt.

Really, whats worse? Not knowing your dad, or knowing your dad doesnt love you?

As for his side, its really unimportant because its not personal about him. Its general thoughts on men who dont want to be fathers. Who knows whats going on in his head.

Lets just hope things work out for her

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 69

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 10:24:09 PM

Nicky

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

RiotGirl:

I think I'll take Lordandmaster up on the suggestion and when I do, I hope you'll post your feelings about absent dads, or for that matter bad dads. I still think the absent ones are worse -- only because you fantasize what you don't know. In any event, it seems you have strong feelings on the subject.

Nicky

< Message edited by Nicky -- 10/11/2005 10:48:31 PM >

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 70

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 11:39:52 PM

FLButtSlut

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

MsChief,

Having read what i believe are most of the responses here, i have one question.

Did Your submissive believe that You were protected from this happening by the birth control pill or some other method (and i do not mean condoms as condoms are NEVER full proof)? In my humble opinion, if the answer to that is yes, and You make the decision to have the baby and keep the baby; is it right that a court of law force him to support a child he doesn't want, simply because You made the choice to have and care for the child? (i KNOW i'm going to get flamed for this).

You aren't going to be flamed by me, but that just isn't how the law works. Also, in her posts, MsChief did make it clear that her sub was very aware of the risks.

If he doesn't want the child, he is free to walk and never spend time with the baby. He is NOT legally free (in the US, poster is in UK, so it may be different) to walk from his financial responsibilities unless MsChief chooses not to pursue the issue of child support.

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 71

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/11/2005 11:43:45 PM

FLButtSlut

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

Again, this isn't a D/s issue. It is a LIFE issue, and a woman's life issue at that.

While I fully support the right of women to decide what happens with/in their bodies I think this is also a man's life issue. His life is affected just as much as hers regardless of what decision she makes. Two people decide to have unprotected sex but when that goes wrong one person gets to decide the course of the future life of three people. All I can do is wish the OP clarity in making the best decision possible for all three people involved.

When men are capable of carrying babies within their bodies, they will have more say in the matter. Just as a man who wants a baby when the woman doesn't. He can't force her to have the baby, so why should he gain the right to force her NOT to?

He does not need to be involved in the child's life, and the only way his life will be "affected" is if he is required to pay child support, which is usually no where near an amount reasonable towards his "fair share" of raising the child that was "timed wrong".

(in reply to MsIncognito)

Post #: 72

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 12:13:27 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

Well,I'm at least glad that we have more of the story now. I'm not a kid person,I have always taken extreme precautions to prevent pregnancy. "Mistakes" never happened.

Now I am finding myself curious as to why you lead us on. Maybe this is more that 20 years after the fact,you still can't let go of the choices he made? I know you and your child both went through a lot of hardships-but he wanted to have choices as well. Ones he was not allowed,by you.

How long are you going to keep punishing him for having a backbone then?

Are you so unhappy with your current life that you'd like to ensure he never will be,as well?

(in reply to MsChief)

Post #: 73

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 12:17:27 AM

FLButtSlut

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline

This whole concept fits in with that whole "absolute, no limits" type of question, doesn't it? It is very easy to say, "ok, someone else can decide whether or not a child can be born", but when the child becomes a reality, so does the concept of "no limits"? For MOST women, regardless of what they THOUGHT was an agreeable prospect (if a sub/slave), once that life begins growing, all bets are off and things change.

MsChief,

His thoughts that just the "timing" is wrong might really be his being completely unprepared for this little "surprise". Now is the time to try as hard as you can not to focus on his issues, but on what you need to do (which you are obviously doing). At this point, leaving the door open for the baby's father is your best option (although that does not mean "pining away" for what you hope will happen).

Mothers are not able to "determine" the relationship a child has with their father, this is very true. A mother can not stop a father from being a good dad, and she can't force him to be one either. Problem is that all too often, it is the mother who has to pick up the pieces for these children with fathers who are absolute jerkoffs. Whether or not this man is one is quite unknown at this point.

It is nice if a child can have the benefit of both parents. This is just simply not always going to happen. "His" side of the story is really not that relevant unless he is stepping up and saying that while he was surprised and this isn't what he wanted, he will do his level best to be a father. Excuses of "timing", not being ready, what will other people think, etc. really don't fly.

As for the idea that somehow as a dominant or worse, a woman, MsChief bore more responsiblity for preventing pregnancy, it is quite contradictory to the concept that the man get equal rights, or decision making power.

As I said before, everyone knew the REALITY risks of sex without birth control (not a D/s issue), now that a child is on the way, everyone's concept of how to handle it changes, regardless of who is dominant, who is submissive. No different than any vanilla couple who takes the risk and gets the same "surprise" and the man and woman have the same reactions.

MsChief, you will be fine, your baby will be fine, and "daddy" might even have a change of heart. Think now of this new life that you will have full responsibility for. And for the time being, sleep while you still can!

(in reply to girl4you2)

Post #: 74

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 5:14:16 AM

MstrHellsFury

Posts: 388
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

I've been following this thread for awhile now...I've kept my opinions to myself...not because I have to mind you...but because...I really like to think about a situation before wading in...then the tenor of this thread seemed to turn to male bashing and bad fatherhood or no father at all...or a males total lack of resposibility for the conception of a child..and on and on and on...

first of all...given the dynamics of the lifestyle and the parties involved...all the right things were said and or discussed before hand...but as it's been said....and for all those who can say in the heat of passion you have never done this in which case I applaud you...they fell into a nilla moment...not lifestyle..not even nilla....just two people enjoying themselves for several days..just being and feeling in love...

everyone is different...you can't have their feelings or their thoughts...they may try to express them..and you acknowledge you understand...but that's still from your viewpoint...

so be it as it may...we all make choices in our lives...some really good...some really bad...but we regroup...regain some sence of balance...and move on...

so I hope since many are with male dominants...we can't all be that bad...
and thoes with female dominants aren't all that bad either...

to you MsChief...if it's a girl...first toy...singletail......if a boy.....flogger

Fury

(in reply to MsChief)

Post #: 75

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 5:48:59 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

How about this -- let's start a new thread entitled "Absent fathers -- how were you affected?"

quote:

How about we start a thread on "Bad fathers - how were you affected?" Or "Fathers who didnt want to be"

Or here's a really novel idea...how about we start a thread on "Being an Adult and Not Blaming Anyone Else For My Screw Ups". Oh but I guess that would be a very unpopular topic.

Come on folks, there comes a day when as an adult you look back and see whatever personal situation you grew up with for what it really was. You say, "Wow, that was totally screwed up....but I am an adult and I am responsible for every day of my life from this moment forward". If it remains screwed up...well then that's on you....even if it is much easier to have someone to blame. As long as you continue to look back and cast blame that carries into your present, you will be forever locked into that "I'm a victim" role.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 10/12/2005 7:35:16 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Nicky)

Post #: 76

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 8:30:00 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Amen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Or here's a really novel idea...how about we start a thread on "Being an Adult and Not Blaming Anyone Else For My Screw Ups".

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 77

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 8:42:13 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

Ditto.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 78

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 9:29:01 AM

Soulhuntre

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

A few thoughts...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Or here's a really novel idea...how about we start a thread on "Being an Adult and Not Blaming Anyone Else For My Screw Ups". Oh but I guess that would be a very unpopular topic.

We live in a society that has spend much more than a decade rewarding weakness and victimization.

If you want "someone" to come along and fix things the best way to do that these days is cry long and loud about how hurt you are, how deep your trauma is and how high your pile of baggage has gotten. If you don't do all that, if you handle your own issues then you are occasionally told you are in "denial" and "cold".

It's really something special. Somewhere along the lien the already simplistic slogan of "don;t blame the victim" has turned into a universal idea of "don't blame ANYONE who claims to be a victim".

As for the topic of the thread it... I'll keep my comments short...

On Power: In some ownership relationships it absolutely is the dominant who has the final say over pregnancy and / or abortion. I have seen dominants who breed a submissive who woudl on her own have chosen not to have a child at that time and terminate a pregnancy the submissive woudl have preferred to keepl. This doesn't make eithe rof the peopel in those relationships bad or evil.

On pregnancy: As long as society grants to wome (right or wrong) the sole and final say over what happens to a pregnancy then I don't find it to be definitively bad or evil that on occasion they wind up alone as a result of that choice. I know two men who had sex with a woman who told them that if, despite precautions, a pregnancy resulted that they were going to terminate who later did not do so. One was deliberately deceitful and th eother made a valid ethical decisionw hen the reality happened. In both cases it si their choice (somehting I support entirely) but in the face of that change in circumstance I don't agree that the male involved should be financially responsible for the womans decison not to follow through.

Again, the simplistic view currently is that if your the father you pay - regardless of the circumstances. It's an outgrowth of the insane expansion of the law in the wake of the so called "dead beat dad" problem. At least one recent case invilved a woman who tried to sue the SPERM DONOR of a sperm bank for child support. Insanity.

On judgments: I have no intention of attempting to make a moral judgment on the man involved in the OP. No offense... but we have no idea what the whole story is and we never will. One sided accounts of events, especially when the event is decades old, are inherantly biased.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 79

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/12/2005 10:16:45 AM

MsChief

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

Well,I'm at least glad that we have more of the story now. I'm not a kid person,I have always taken extreme precautions to prevent pregnancy. "Mistakes" never happened.

Now I am finding myself curious as to why you lead us on. Maybe this is more that 20 years after the fact,you still can't let go of the choices he made? I know you and your child both went through a lot of hardships-but he wanted to have choices as well. Ones he was not allowed,by you.

How long are you going to keep punishing him for having a backbone then?

Are you so unhappy with your current life that you'd like to ensure he never will be,as well?

Dear JustaTop,
I think you may have misread the post to are refering to but you have not quoted which bit you are making reference to.

I had a SIMILAR situation happen 20 years ago (That child is now 19) This pregnancy is very much in the here and now.

As I said....my partner of 20 years ago posed the classic, baby or me choice. I chose the baby. She has never seen him and I never asked him for anything. I don't think I 'punished' him at all! As for my current life, well an unplanned pregnancy is always stressful and the loss of a sub is always painful but apart from that....my life is pretty good. I am lucky that I took to heart the comment made 20 years ago that if I had the baby I would never make anything of my life. I have far exceeded even my own expectations.

Hope this clarifies the present position.

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 80

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