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RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 12:02:20 PM

Larry862

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/30/2004
Status: offline

wow.. I guess I am going to make a statement that seems to go against what most people are saying here.

First you are the Domme here, it was your resposibility to take the measures needed to prevent getting pregant if you did not wish to. That is not the responsibility of the sub! Now that being said, I also believe you have the right to make whatever decision you wish except, I also do not feel you can make the sub responsible for the pregancy in any way manner shape or form. I would also suggest that you need to discuss these events with the sub to try and remedy the issue of perhaps a broken trust. As a sub that person put trust into your knowing what you are doing and taking measures to prevent and unwanted complications. That trust appears to have been broken. It is something that needs to be addressed.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 101

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 2:35:23 PM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

I don’t agree that automatically the father should be made to pay. I’ll agree that he should help financially but if he is an undesirable type (Lets say a junkie, drug dealer and violent type with a police record for any of these things as examples), It may be better and safer for both mother and child to be kept apart from the father particularly if there is a chance of him exerting a bad influence on the child or placing the Mother and child at risk.. Any decision should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

IronBear

You are entirely correct Sir; i should not have spoken as if i knew what was best...i apologise to the pregnant woman in question.

pinkpleasures

_____________________________

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 102

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 2:42:57 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Just as a mater of interest, having seen first hand the advantage of the slow release pill insert (I haven't a clue of it's name or medical term) my Wife/FC has implanted in her arm, if and when I have a kajira in either a house or personal collar, this is one option which will be looked at. I just dont completely trust vasectomies, so a backup system is good in my book.

Edited to correct typos

< Message edited by IronBear -- 10/31/2005 6:49:28 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to pinkpleasures)

Post #: 103

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 2:48:25 PM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

If I were the lady involved I would recognize the error for which I was responsible and RU486 my problem away. This situation is FUBAR. She shouldn't get her way just because she can force her stance legally. If anything, her poor decision and lack of preparation means she should pay the forfeit. The zygote has no rights whatever.

Chaingang

i think we all have points of agreement and disagreement on this thread. i agree with FlButtSlut that we should be comforting the woman, whose life is about to be turned upside down -- while the man can walk away with no more than a modest support obligation.

My "unplanned pregnancy" occured after my ex had a vasectomy and was tested and found to be sterile...so we stopped using birth control. It was a fluke. His glee at the baby's death speaks volumes about what sort of man he was..and added immerseably to my grief.

The fact is, the period in a woman's life when she is both sexually active and fertile but for birth control carry with it the risk of an "unplanned pregnancy"; most of us are probably such babies, given that our parents had few birth control options. When such things happen, i suppose it is natural for a man to wish it away, by abortion or adoption, but the woman has the procedure or gives up the child, and it must be HER decision. Basing a decision on the man's desire not to pay support would be irrational.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 10/31/2005 5:47:27 PM >

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(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 104

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 3:03:33 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

In my book and according to the ridgid codes by which I live, if I impregnate a female, I will give what counselling I can, and then inform her that the final decision is hers and I will support that decision. If she chooses to have the baby, the base line is that she will have what financial support I am able to provide. This is non debaterable and is just what a man should do if he halls himself as man. The rest regarding emotional and other support and physical involvement is dependent on many factors which are ofen to dioscussion by the parties involved. I never forget that somewhere out there, there may well (with a high probability) one or more young people who are either Asian Australians or Latino Australians who can call me Dad, and I am prepared for that.

(Condoms are great for waterproofing things like radios and the muzzle of a weapon as well as holding much needed water)

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to pinkpleasures)

Post #: 105

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 3:03:33 PM

ICGsteve

Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline

I believe that a dom always has an obligation to look after the emotional needs of the sub. By this doms own admittion the sub has reacted very negatively to the pregnancy which is by itself proof that the dom did not honor her obligation to the sub. This is further evidenced by her in post ten when she says "He has said that I am denying him a 'voice' in this matter. I did say he made a choice some weeks ago whether to ejaculate or not but he says I controlled that as a Domme!!! Would make me laugh if it wasnt so sad. " She is making no effort to understand the subs position, giving no posibility that he has a valid point of view.

I agree that the dom has broken trust here and the reason is that she has failed in her caretaking obligations. Responsibility runs parallel with obligation so unless someone can make an arguement that the sub has equally failed to honor his obligations to the dom the result is that the dom is the one who carries the majority of the responsibility for this sorry situation.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 10/31/2005 3:10:16 PM >

(in reply to pinkpleasures)

Post #: 106

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 5:10:46 PM

luvdragonx

Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

I believe that a dom always has an obligation to look after the emotional needs of the sub. By this doms own admittion the sub has reacted very negatively to the pregnancy which is by itself proof that the dom did not honor her obligation to the sub. This is further evidenced by her in post ten when she says "He has said that I am denying him a 'voice' in this matter. I did say he made a choice some weeks ago whether to ejaculate or not but he says I controlled that as a Domme!!! Would make me laugh if it wasnt so sad. " She is making no effort to understand the subs position, giving no posibility that he has a valid point of view.

I agree that the dom has broken trust here and the reason is that she has failed in her caretaking obligations. Responsibility runs parallel with obligation so unless someone can make an arguement that the sub has equally failed to honor his obligations to the dom the result is that the dom is the one who carries the majority of the responsibility for this sorry situation.

Well, not knowing the arrangement or agreement they had come to prior to getting pregnant, I can't say for certain that either one was more responsible for the pregnancy than the other. Not only did she - in a sense - fail to see to his needs in that he didn't want a child, HE also failed to safeword out of a situation that could cause an undesired outcome. It's just as wrong for him to take the risk of getting her pregant while hoping she doesn't or will terminate if she does, as it is wrong for her to take the risk of getting pregnant while hoping he'll change his mind about wanting kids. Hope shouldn't factor in decisions like that.

So the argument you asked for is this: unless he was forced -held at gunpoint, tied down or drugged - to provide his sperm for the conception of this baby, he was always able to say NO. Many D/s couples have fail safes in place to prevent unwanted results. He could have, and should have used it. That's HIS part in it all. Again, not blaming any one of them any more than the other person.

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to ICGsteve)

Post #: 107

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 8:17:41 PM

Chaingang

Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
So the argument you asked for is this: unless he was forced -held at gunpoint, tied down or drugged - to provide his sperm for the conception of this baby, he was always able to say NO. Many D/s couples have fail safes in place to prevent unwanted results. He could have, and should have used it. That's HIS part in it all. Again, not blaming any one of them any more than the other person.

I agree that we don't know all the necessary facts to form a truly solid opinion, but let's not ignore the power structure at play here. She was the Domme. How did they end up in a situation where they could and did get pregnant? It speaks volumes about lack of preparation and lack of sensible options. Her only clue has been something like: "We lapsed into vanilla" (blushes). Well, sorry - but that's way too fucking la dee da for me. Where is the part that she takes charge as the person *IN CHARGE*?!

Sex was apparently an option but they took no precautions. Why? How does this come to occur?

It would be different, if only slightly, if they were doing something to prevent issue and then still got pregnant. Here they did nothing, and she was in the leadership/power position. It's unforgivable for a variety of reasons, an unplanned pregnancy being only one of them. And the fact of it is she has options to follow-up via a Plan B and recover the situation. Okay, but she won't. How nice.

I don't see her as acting at all ethically. She screwed up and now she still wants 100% her way.

Having no plan against pregnancy is basically planning to get pregnant in my view. That's what she did. Without further details it's hard not to imagine that she wanted this and got her way by hoodwinking this poor sub who is now on the hook for 18-20 years of stuff he never agreed to.

(in reply to luvdragonx)

Post #: 108

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 8:25:53 PM

FLButtSlut

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stormsfate

This post is not in reply to you, fts2005, I just hit fast reply. For those saying he can just voluntarily terminate his parental rights...well, its not that easy. He can't just say "I don't want to be financially responsible for this child" and the court says...."Oh, okay, then we'll just terminate your parental rights". I'm not familiar with the statutes enough to give examples, but just wanted to point that out for anyone else who has the time and desire to do a little more research.

fate,

I know that you misread my post, and I probably wasn't clear enough on the statement. You are 100% correct that one can not just terminate parental rights very easily, however, if both parties are in agreement, it is pretty easy to do. My point really was that one is not eternally obligated to the other PARENT, but rather to the child. While the father may not want the child or a relationship with the mother, the concept that they can demand anything that is physically invasive on the mother is ludicrous.

Even that is not a much clearer explanation, but at the moment, the best that I can come up with. If that makes it clearer to you fate, perhaps you can help clarify what I'm saying.

(in reply to stormsfate)

Post #: 109

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 8:59:10 PM

ICGsteve

Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

So the argument you asked for is this: unless he was forced -held at gunpoint, tied down or drugged - to provide his sperm for the conception of this baby, he was always able to say NO. Many D/s couples have fail safes in place to prevent unwanted results. He could have, and should have used it. That's HIS part in it all. Again, not blaming any one of them any more than the other person.

I pointed out how she violated her obligations to him and said that unless he equally violated his obligations to her then she was more responsible. That he came in her does not violate his obligation to her unless she told him not to do it, which clearly she did not. He violated his obligation to himself to keep himself out of such situations, which he could have done by using his safe word or otherwise refusing to participate. She violated her obligation to herself to keep herself out of such situations, which she could have done by making sure that reliable birth control was being used. They both equally did not take care of themselves, but my point is that because of the D/S dynamic it goes further; she did not fullfill her obligation to take care of him while he did nothing wrong towards her. Overall, she is most responsible for the problem, which makes her being unwilling to consider his feelings and point of view even more outrageous than it otherwise would be.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 10/31/2005 9:00:13 PM >

(in reply to luvdragonx)

Post #: 110

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 10:17:27 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

If we look at parental rights, and bearing that I dont know the laws pertaining to the US or anywhere else for that matter, here in Aussie, a female, and especially an unmarried lass, may have on the birth certificate either the Father's name or she may decide to have "Father unknown" entered. If the latter is the case, the only recourse the male has is to ask for dna testing in which he may need to go to court. I dont have all the details and legalities on this but is the mother does want to keep him away from the child and is ready to forgo any financial assistance from him, this is one avenue which is available to her. Perhaps some one in the US could comment on this and if there is something similar there too.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ICGsteve)

Post #: 111

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 10/31/2005 11:33:07 PM

luvdragonx

Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

So the argument you asked for is this: unless he was forced -held at gunpoint, tied down or drugged - to provide his sperm for the conception of this baby, he was always able to say NO. Many D/s couples have fail safes in place to prevent unwanted results. He could have, and should have used it. That's HIS part in it all. Again, not blaming any one of them any more than the other person.

I pointed out how she violated her obligations to him and said that unless he equally violated his obligations to her then she was more responsible. That he came in her does not violate his obligation to her unless she told him not to do it, which clearly she did not. He violated his obligation to himself to keep himself out of such situations, which he could have done by using his safe word or otherwise refusing to participate. She violated her obligation to herself to keep herself out of such situations, which she could have done by making sure that reliable birth control was being used. They both equally did not take care of themselves, but my point is that because of the D/S dynamic it goes further; she did not fullfill her obligation to take care of him while he did nothing wrong towards her. Overall, she is most responsible for the problem, which makes her being unwilling to consider his feelings and point of view even more outrageous than it otherwise would be.

The premise that I base my opinion on is the one that says the sub has a responsibility to his Domme to let her know he's not comfortable. Many many times you'll hear it said that Dom/mes are not mind readers and they shouldn't be expected to know that you're fundamentally opposed to something unless you speak up. If he had the will to walk away once she got pregnant, he could have done so before they had unprotected sex - on the grounds that she was willing to take risks he wasn't prepared to deal with. If you're going to use "She made me do it" as an explanation for doing something you don't want to do, then she should be able to 'make' him deal with the consequences of that action. But because I believe that both are equally responsible for her becoming pregnant, the blame game is useless IMO.

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to ICGsteve)

Post #: 112

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 11/1/2005 5:01:08 AM

Chaingang

Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
The premise that I base my opinion on is the one that says the sub has a responsibility to his Domme to let her know he's not comfortable.

I feel pretty strongly that you are in error. That, or you don't play hard enough to know any better. [I am not picking a personal fight here, the reality of your situation is entirely unknown to me - I am picking at your words alone.]

We all know that a sub can and will enter into a submissive headspace and submit to practically anything deemed appropriate by the Dom/me - that's a fact. That's why trust is such an important part of the BDSM scene. Safewording only works when the sub can be assumed to be in something like a near perfectly sober state. And again, that just may not be the case here - in the presence of the Domme the sub in question may have entered his submissive space.

Many times I have myself experienced that "turned" state of mind in a submissive if I look at her a certain way or bark a command. The submissive's eyes lower, her voice might become whisper-like and monotone. Her manner will be utterly deferential to my every whim. To speak of such a one as having a safeword option is really and truly not to respect the state a submissive may enter into in the presence of the Dominant. And for many it is a constant thing in the presence of the Dom. Don't believe it? Then you just don't know.

By her own admission the Domme says that they "lapsed" into vanilla. Here's a definition of that word:

Lapse:
To fall from a previous level or standard, as of accomplishment, quality, or conduct: lapse into bad habits; a team that lapsed into mediocrity halfway through the season. b. To deviate from a prescribed or accepted way: lapse into heresy. c. To pass gradually or smoothly; slip: lapse into reverie.

Now precisely whose fault is such a lapse? The Domme's.

If this were any other thing but a sexual encounter leading to pregnancy everyone would be jumping down this Domme's throat. As other's have rightly pointed out, there's far more than a little gender politics at play in this thread.

Let's say it was a male Dom and his sub during a cutting scene. One assumes there might be some discussion up front about safety, first aid, pattern size and depth of cut, and so on. One must also assume that given the proximate pain of a cutting a sub may enter deeply into their submissive headspace, the Dom then has to take charge. If the cutting were to go badly and deviate from what was discussed up front everyone would be arguing the Dom was at fault and many would even raise the ugly term "blacklisting." If the cutting had gone well it would have conformed to expectations and been done consensually; the degree to which the cutting deviates from expectations is the degree to which the Dom loses the perceived protection of consensual play and enters into what is legally an assault. In truth, a Dom has no legal protection in either case - but the larger BDSM community will defend a cutting that is well done and social pressures will work to accept the activity as consensual.

It's funny, we talk about blood play as if that's "edgy"; but the haphazard possibility that one's actions might lead to the creation of a human life is given short shrift. That's a lapse into vanilla I guess...

The buck stops somewhere - that's a fact. The person specifically able and expected to control the scene admits a lapse into vanilla. They didn't have or even plan protection - that's okay, she lapsed into vanilla. She told him she might be fertile - that's okay, she lapsed into vanilla. Maybe the sub thought she was pulling a mere mind-fuck - that's okay, she lapsed into vanilla. They fucked and now she has a bun in the oven - that's okay, she lapsed into vanilla.

Well gee, given that deep level of acceptance for a Domme's utter failure to take charge of the scene I guess I will go from here and perform all manner of hideous non-consensual behavior and well understand that it will be accepted as a mere lapse on my part. Who knew? Hey, step right up ladies - I am prepared to bruise faces, break bones, tear muscles, cut flesh, and pretty much just go the limit. I have a "get out of jail free" card that reads: "Lapsed into vanilla."

Is that what people want? What are the lessons being taught in this thread? Where does one begin to place responsibility on someone - some one body - able to act like a mature adult in this situation?

I was just kidding, of course. I will do none of those things stated two paragraphs up.

I take charge. I am responsible. I have a Plan A. Sure, mistakes happen - shit happens. I have a Plan B. I am not a person that allows for lapses - I have contingency planning on my side.

The buck stops here.

(in reply to luvdragonx)

Post #: 113

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 11/1/2005 5:39:58 AM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

If we look at parental rights, and bearing that I dont know the laws pertaining to the US or anywhere else for that matter, here in Aussie, a female, and especially an unmarried lass, may have on the birth certificate either the Father's name or she may decide to have "Father unknown" entered. If the latter is the case, the only recourse the male has is to ask for dna testing in which he may need to go to court. I dont have all the details and legalities on this but is the mother does want to keep him away from the child and is ready to forgo any financial assistance from him, this is one avenue which is available to her. Perhaps some one in the US could comment on this and if there is something similar there too.

IronBear

Yes Sir; a baby is presumed to be the father's only if (1) the woman is married or (2) the man requests -- and the woman consents -- to have his name on the birth certificate. However, fathers may go to court and seek an order of paternity, and during such proceedings, the parentage will be determined by DNA testing. Once paternity is established, support obligations and visitation rights generally arise.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 11/1/2005 5:41:24 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 114

RE: Unplanned pregnancy....D/s view - 11/1/2005 10:26:31 AM

ICGsteve

Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline

The level of responibility does matter because if she was more responsible for the situation she is now under obligation to do more than he is to resolve the situation into something that they both can live with. No matter what the legal status is, she is now ethically obligated to go the extra mile towards the solution. SHe can either do it or not.

The arguement that the sub is equally responsible for the outcome of an encounter is ridiculous. By definition if this were so then there was no D/S dynamic at the time, they would have been play acting D/S but not actually doing it.

(in reply to pinkpleasures)

Post #: 115

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