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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:18:27 AM   
TJsCheekypet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

What does "Free Speech" mean to you?



is there 'really' such a thing?

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:18:59 AM   
djoker


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Status: offline 		free speech to me means this: it is a right to say anything. however the person who should control what you say should only be you. it should neither be the government nor anyone else. as long as you are not physically injuring anyone you should be safe from the hands of the law. however a little restraint on your part would be much appreciated for that is the sign of civilised societies.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 6:04:34 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I can say what ever I want about anything or anybody, as long as
a) its not threatening, and
b) it isnt intended to incite hatred of any person or group of persons (this doesnt include associations to which persons or groups of persons might belong)

And, (optionally, but best practice)
c) its accurate to fact or my opinion of the available information

E


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 6:40:24 AM   
GreedyTop


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The freedom to say I think the President is a fuckwad, publicly, without being taken out and shot :)


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 7:24:49 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

~FR~

The freedom to say I think the President is a fuckwad, publicly, without being taken out and shot :)



Doesn't change anything though does it?


Wasn't it Solzhinitsyn that said western freedom is a fraud and overated?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/20/2008 7:25:11 AM >

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 7:30:38 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Free speech means no one has to pay for your words in any way.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:07:17 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Wasn't it Solzhinitsyn that said western freedom is a fraud and overated?


Ironic you should quote him...especially since he was imprisoned and exiled for his use of free speech.

Butch

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:15:06 AM   
bipolarber


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Status: offline 		Freedom of speech means I can speak my mind about whatever topic concerns me: be it political, religious, sexual, or arguing with you guys aboutt he best way to tie somebody up before teasing them to orgasm. Free exchange of ideas, opinions and poits of view.

Which is why I KNEW we were in deep trouble when the "Bushies" decided to institute "free speech zones" well away from whatever media might be covering a speech by "Shithead-in-chief" Bush. That was the first step onto the slippery slope that we now find ourselves on. A slope greased with torture, wiretapping, a never ending war, and economic disaster. We let them get away with it because "junior" and his cronies used fear and pressure against the media to stifle any dissent.

I forget who said it, but they were right: we got the government we deserved.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:16:20 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Wasn't it Solzhinitsyn that said western freedom is a fraud and overated?


Ironic you should quote him...especially since he was imprisoned and exiled for his use of free speech.

Butch


His big problem is a common one.  He wanted freedom to say and do as he wanted, but couldn't get it through his head that that freedom has to be universal or it's relatively meaningless.  If he had had his way, the United States would be a Russian Orthodox theocracy with a Puritan overlay.

There is a big difference between being on top with the power to say what one wants and being a member of a society where the freedom is universal.  The first is more comfortable but transient.  The second is more durable, but accepting the freedom in others can be very uncomfortable.

Sadly, many people value comfort

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:18:05 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can say what ever I want about anything or anybody, as long as
b) it isnt intended to incite hatred of any person or group of persons (this doesnt include associations to which persons or groups of persons might belong)



You would have me silenced if I said that Hitler was a monster.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:31:14 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can say what ever I want about anything or anybody, as long as
b) it isnt intended to incite hatred of any person or group of persons (this doesnt include associations to which persons or groups of persons might belong)



You would have me silenced if I said that Hitler was a monster.


Only if you made threats and incited hatred.

Unfortunately all must be protected no matter how unpopular they might be, to avoid the situation where for instance we said that Muslims were monsters who needed destroying, or any other group for that matter. Societal and cultural tastes cannot be allowed to frame any group which is exempted from protection, since such tastes are changeable and easily manipulated.

You can say Hitler is a monster. You can say that nazis are monsters and naziism is monsters. You only fall foul when you make a threat against Hitler or nazis (not naziism notably) and incite hatred against them.

E

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:46:07 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Hi LadyEllen... I can see problems with your thinking about inciting hatred. That is often up to the person hearing your speech. For instance if you were to make a comment supporting the right for homosexuals to marry in some areas of Kansas...you would be inciting hatred. Do you then have the freedom of speech to say it in the UK?

Even if I knew the above comment would incite hatred I believe it is my  and your right to say it.

Butch

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:51:37 AM   
GreedyTop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

~FR~

The freedom to say I think the President is a fuckwad, publicly, without being taken out and shot :)



Doesn't change anything though does it?


Wasn't it Solzhinitsyn that said western freedom is a fraud and overated?


I didn't say it would change anything.. just that I have the freedom to say it without fear of being dragged off to be shot or imprisoned for saying it.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:53:44 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		It's more a case of making threats of violence and supporting groups that advocate violence you have to avoid.

If you said "I believe the people that carry out scientific research on animals get what they deserve when terrorists send them bombs because they deserve to fucking die" You'd probably find yourself in trouble in the UK.  


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:53:51 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Wasn't it Solzhinitsyn that said western freedom is a fraud and overated?


Ironic you should quote him...especially since he was imprisoned and exiled for his use of free speech.

Butch


His big problem is a common one.  He wanted freedom to say and do as he wanted, but couldn't get it through his head that that freedom has to be universal or it's relatively meaningless.  If he had had his way, the United States would be a Russian Orthodox theocracy with a Puritan overlay.

There is a big difference between being on top with the power to say what one wants and being a member of a society where the freedom is universal.  The first is more comfortable but transient.  The second is more durable, but accepting the freedom in others can be very uncomfortable.

Sadly, many people value comfort


I think he meant it in terms most westerners were happy to be told they had freedom by their establishments and were happy accept it at face value while they are really no freer than those people under the Soviet yoke.

As Chomsky put it ,“Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.”

Blair was always going on about negative freedom which is attributable to individualism if I remember right, which is pretty pointless in that you are allowed to drift through life and with out power of a collective, have no real power of influence over the establishments(though of course he didn't say it in those terms) while positive freedom is taking action, usually as a collective (because that is the only way ordinary individuals can wield power),  as in the 'poll tax riots' that eventually toppled Thactcher. Something still celebrated by many people in Britain as a positive use of freedom in getting rid of a draconian tax..

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 8:57:53 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I chuckled at this. Sometimes we are fucked and sometimes we are not. Just like with all the positions of power, it relies on the good sense of the people to elect servants for them, and not servants for special interest, corps or ones that are only in it for themselves.

Big difference between politicians and statesmen. Has not been any statesmen for a very long time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The judiciary branch determines it.




      Well, that's it then.  We're fucked. 


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:01:45 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can say what ever I want about anything or anybody, as long as
a) its not threatening, and
b) it isnt intended to incite hatred of any person or group of persons (this doesnt include associations to which persons or groups of persons might belong)


Your b listed above is not restriction of speech, but an attempt to restrict thought. While I personally do not agree with anyone that tries to promote hatred of groups, and such, it is a personal moral and not one that should be imposed via law.

What if suddenly the majority said that anything that promotes sex change operations, homosexuality and such and they passed a law against speaking about such things? Seperate your personal morals (right and wrong) from what should be imposed on everyone.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:07:09 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can say what ever I want about anything or anybody, as long as
b) it isnt intended to incite hatred of any person or group of persons (this doesnt include associations to which persons or groups of persons might belong)



You would have me silenced if I said that Hitler was a monster.


Only if you made threats and incited hatred.

Unfortunately all must be protected no matter how unpopular they might be, to avoid the situation where for instance we said that Muslims were monsters who needed destroying, or any other group for that matter. Societal and cultural tastes cannot be allowed to frame any group which is exempted from protection, since such tastes are changeable and easily manipulated.

You can say Hitler is a monster. You can say that nazis are monsters and naziism is monsters. You only fall foul when you make a threat against Hitler or nazis (not naziism notably) and incite hatred against them.

E


OK, I see it now.  You prefer to protect people rather than rights.  I take the other approach.

By the way, he WAS a monster

PPS, If I say that Nazis are monsters and Hitler is a Nazi.  I'm saying Hitler is a monster.  Classic set theory.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:07:21 AM   
Padriag


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Status: offline 		Personally I find it slightly amusing that society has reached the point where either the act of simply making a threat, or of inciting hatred are considered crimes.

If someone threatens to shoot me, they have still done no actual harm to me... perhaps they intend to do so, perhaps its just empty words (more often in my experience, its simply bluster).  While it might upset or annoy me, it has not harmed me... why make it a crime?

Likewise, if I were to say,"I think all Irishmen are drunken worthless sots who ought to be hanged, why you folks ought to go get your ropes and guns and knives and hunt'em all down!"  What harm have I actually done... other than to myself considering I am an Irishman!  LOL  No one is obligated to listen to me, much less take me serious, much less actually act on what I say.  If someone does act on it, is it not that individual we should hold responsible for their actions, their choice to act on the remarks of someone else?

This is where I differ, apparently from much of the western world, my view is more on personal responsibility and less on making someone else culpable for my own stupidity.

If I harm you, I alone am responsible... I made the choice, regardless of whomever may have influenced me.  I alone am responsible for all I say and do... no one else.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:08:52 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		The only people that have to fear their speech getting them in trouble are those that make or promote acts of violence against groups. This is not really confusing to me that people shouldn't be allowed to make emotive speeches that spur people on into committing acts of violence. Is the mastermind always allowed to get away with his crimes because the blood is on someone else's hands? I doubt UBL has killed any American's personally so why did you spend all that money hunting for him?

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