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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:20:36 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		BULLSHIT. Many cases of people have an unpopular opinion and there have been laws made. Look into restriction of pornography prior to the internet. Look into unpopular theories about human evolution, social development, non-emotional discussions of ethnic cleansing.

People need to hold others accountable for their actions. People need to be able to say what the hell they want, and be judged by society, and then society can impose consequences.

Did you even read any of the sites I posted?

Your logic below is flawed and you need to educate yourself in what is direct and indirect concerning a crime. UBL was likely involved in the training, and planning of the act. His speech directly promoted others to commit a crime. You already know this though, so why are you putting it up as a ludicrous example?


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The only people that have to fear their speech getting them in trouble are those that make or promote acts of violence against groups. This is not really confusing to me that people shouldn't be allowed to make emotive speeches that spur people on into committing acts of violence. Is the mastermind always allowed to get away with his crimes because the blood is on someone else's hands? I doubt UBL has killed any American's personally so why did you spend all that money hunting for him?


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:24:00 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Free Speech = not living in Europe.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:26:59 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Actually you should look at the new Bill of Rights for Switzerland. While they left out the right to bear arms, they updated many areas that needed it. I would not paint all of Europe with a broad stroke. Then again I was there till 8 and visited/lived in a few places since, so mine may not be a good objective opinion either.


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Free Speech = not living in Europe.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:28:06 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		It is pure speculation how much involvement in training he had. Some consider him to be more a figure head and few have actually even met him. He has hardly been running about training arm to arm combat recently. In light of that the only easily proven crime he has committed is his speeches promoting violence which without the laws as they are in the UK and France we'd have to offer him asylum from the US.

These laws have come about as a direct result of the ‘fight against terrorism’ as they were initially used to fight radical preachers in the UK that were once upon a time untouchable.

That is my logic; if you don’t follow it I’m sorry.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/20/2008 9:30:30 AM >

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:37:25 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Say what you like within accepted guidlines, but expect me be hammered down.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 10:13:50 AM   
DrummerDom


Posts: 49
Joined: 2/16/2008
Status: offline 		In the following order:

1) Be respectful*
2) Say what you want.

Generally if people aren't respectful themselves, they waive their right to respectful replies.  When this happens, I either ignore them or, if I can get away with it, do my hardest to get under the skin.

I don't always like what people say, but if it's a legitimate and/or respectful point, that's usually my problem, not theirs.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 10:35:59 AM   
Mercnbeth


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~ Fast Reply ~
 
Easy - Free speech is speech representing the majority; ideally for positions representing "good intent" or policies contrary to pragmatic logic best identifies as speech prefaced or including the clause "...for the children."

You know when you've exceeded "free speech" when you, or your speech, is labeled 'fascist', 'Nazi', 'communist', 'liberal', or 'conservative'. The switch from debate to insult and label is acceptable and is politically correct as a argument point in defending the "Free Speech" concept. Pointing out the hypocrisy, as well as the ignorance portrayed, represents examples of limited or unacceptable speech; and is considered an attack by politically correct free speech proponents.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 10:40:10 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Don'tcha just love it when something you've said is variously labeled as fascist, conservative and liberal... by various groups who happen to disagree.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 10:51:16 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Don'tcha just love it when something you've said is variously labeled as fascist, conservative and liberal... by various groups who happen to disagree.


I call those people, The Politically Correct Goose Steppers.
They can label you but don't dare "label" them.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 10:54:17 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		"The only acceptable form of censorship is the right of people not to listen."
                                                                                      -Tommy Smothers

Mercnbeth is quite correct. It's the unpopular views that need to be protected most of all. We need to hear those folks who keep saying that guns are bad, that porn is bad, that the American way of life is bad. Without them, we're all in a wagonload of dynamite racing down hill with no brakes, and no way to steer. (Sort of the way we have been for the last seven years and five months.) Dissent has been crushed in this country. Even if we all rose up and ripped Bush apart at the seams, like some jerkwad getting his just desserts in a George Romero movie, we couldn't get ourselves out of Iraq. The Congress is sitting there with the power, but refuses to use it, as not to maim their chances at the white house. In the meantime, men are dying. They won't restart the draft, because they know that would just re-ignite the kind of chaos the 60's were known for. Everyone's complacent, and unwilling to speak up, just so long as things don't affect THEM.

America: home of the cowardly, land of the sheep.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 10:59:22 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I call those people, The Politically Correct Goose Steppers.
They can label you but don't dare "label" them.



You just have, Popeye.

The last 3 posts are taking the discussion away from free speech and into the realms of balking at labels and falling back on the old, tried and tested, playing to the gallery routine that is Political Correctness, which is a shame because Kittin's and LaM's posts on free speech were making for an interesting thread.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:15:56 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I call those people, The Politically Correct Goose Steppers.
They can label you but don't dare "label" them.



You just have, Popeye.

The last 3 posts are taking the discussion away from free speech and into the realms of balking at labels and falling back on the old, tried and tested, playing to the gallery routine that is Political Correctness, which is a shame because Kittin's and LaM's posts on free speech were making for an interesting thread.


NG, yup, and that's called Free Speech.
You know, with this Patriot Act stuff and all that and the Left's propensity to want to quash free speech you'd figure that the Left would idolise George Bush!
Birds of a feather and all that.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:16:21 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Dissent has been crushed in this country.

Are we living in the same country... cause frankly, where I'm sitting... dissent is the majority of what I see.  Course it is an election year... that always stirs the pot.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:18:30 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I call those people, The Politically Correct Goose Steppers.
They can label you but don't dare "label" them.



You just have, Popeye.

The last 3 posts are taking the discussion away from free speech and into the realms of balking at labels and falling back on the old, tried and tested, playing to the gallery routine that is Political Correctness, which is a shame because Kittin's and LaM's posts on free speech were making for an interesting thread.


NG, yup, and that's called Free Speech.
You know, with this Patriot Act stuff and all that and the Left's propensity to want to quash free speech you'd figure that the Left would idolise George Bush!
Birds of a feather and all that.


Well, I son't know anything of the Patriot Act or what the left do in the US. Assuming the above is correct, England is a different kettle of fish.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:27:08 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I think free speech means you can say anything you want, as long as you are prepared for al the things other people are going to say back to you. After all, if you want the right to say whatever you like, you had better be ready for some harsh criticism, and under your own desire for freedom you cant say a thing to them about it.

DV


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VampiresLair

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:32:13 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Why can't you say anything to them?  So we're all allowed to pontificate... just no rebuttals.  Where's the sport in that?

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:47:11 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Don'tcha just love it when something you've said is variously labeled as fascist, conservative and liberal... by various groups who happen to disagree.


The problem is that sometimes the label is the goal and desire. Society labeled Hester an 'adulterous' and labeled her with an 'A'. The society majority saw that as negative. You think that represented 100%? You think her the only adulterous adult in the community? Better yet, think that some woman and men envied the label or at least what it implied? Labels inhibit free speech, but the FEAR of being labeled is powerful.

It is this fear which is a source, and cause of misinformation and results that inspire 'conspiracy theories'.

Consider the current Presidential race of Senator Obama. His background disclosed thus far, anticipating more to come, would have eliminated from consideration any other candidate. Either he was totally naive and ignorant to what was being represented by his Church and self identified 'Mentor' pastor; or he was and is in agreement. Neither answer would be acceptable if coming from any candidate who's run for this office in the 20th century. We're a country who eliminated a VP candidate because in the past he went to see a psychiatrist.

Yet Senator is still the front-runner for his political party. Polls say he is favored and preferred over Senator Clinton and Senator McCain. When the results are tallied in November and they don't hold up to the polls a new conspiracy will be born. Reality is, the inhibition of free speech of pointing out the Senator's lack of credentials, experience, and past judgment is the cause. Who wants the risk the potential of being labeled with the scarlet letter 'R' or 'B'. Behind the closed doors of a ballet booth it is much easier to practice free speech expressed in casting a vote. Private hypocrisy needs little rationalization.

Ironic that a political party, both guilty of handing out labeling letters but in this case seeing the potential of doom, is now trapped. Worse for them, their other candidate, with similar criticism averting labeling issues; brings out more doubt in the ability of the person expected to be the parties standard-bearer. Setting up a situation of opportunity for another four years of status quo with the expectation of more PAC driven and benefiting PAC policies.

Similar to a blind application to universities wouldn't it be better to not consider anything but the raw data and not care or know the race, age, or creed of the candidates? Of course not - because that 'free speech' just doesn't consider 200 years of bias and social injustice; because accepting below acceptable standards makes up for that history and accepting mediocrity is rationalized under the banner of 'change'. In defeat it spawns conspiracy and a VERY funny rationalization; "we're not like them".

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:57:50 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		An here I thought all the conspiracy theories were just some sort of odd entertainment form... kind of a group hobby.  Not being an avid politics watcher (more like an avid loather), what's a PAC?  I can't keep up with all these acronyms, letters, labels, titles, categories, a priori... 

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:02:28 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi LadyEllen... I can see problems with your thinking about inciting hatred. That is often up to the person hearing your speech. For instance if you were to make a comment supporting the right for homosexuals to marry in some areas of Kansas...you would be inciting hatred. Do you then have the freedom of speech to say it in the UK?

Even if I knew the above comment would incite hatred I believe it is my  and your right to say it.

Butch


I fail to see how promoting same sex marriage would in any way threaten homosexuals or incite hatred towards them?

If you mean that my promotion thereof might cause others to make threats towards and incite hatred against homosexuals, then these others would be guilty of an offence, not I.

E

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:11:59 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can say what ever I want about anything or anybody, as long as
a) its not threatening, and
b) it isnt intended to incite hatred of any person or group of persons (this doesnt include associations to which persons or groups of persons might belong)


Your b listed above is not restriction of speech, but an attempt to restrict thought. While I personally do not agree with anyone that tries to promote hatred of groups, and such, it is a personal moral and not one that should be imposed via law.

What if suddenly the majority said that anything that promotes sex change operations, homosexuality and such and they passed a law against speaking about such things? Seperate your personal morals (right and wrong) from what should be imposed on everyone.



One cannot restrict thought. One does however restrict the right of people to make public statements which are threatening and which incite hatred against a person or group of persons - both conditions must be satisified.

Your second point indicates exactly why our legislation is framed as it is - such that it also must protect the most unpopular people and groups of people, as varies from time to time. I personally find it perverse that the nazis here are protected from having threats made against them and hate stirred up against them by the law - but it is my personal opinion that they're a pain in the neck, not a basis for determining law.

E


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