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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:13:55 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

An here I thought all the conspiracy theories were just some sort of odd entertainment form... kind of a group hobby.  Not being an avid politics watcher (more like an avid loather), what's a PAC?  I can't keep up with all these acronyms, letters, labels, titles, categories, a priori... 


The letters stand for Political Action Committees. They, and the money they put into various campaign issues and directly into political campaigns represent influence and power.

The best determination of what policies will be implemented during the next administration is to view the contributions by PACs. Senator McCain is one of the patron saints of PACs. The legislation he sponsored and named insures their influence for many years to come.

There are limitless places to view PACs and their contributions. Here's one which allows you to research by candidate and/or issue: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/index.asp

PACs are why you will never see or have a chance to elect any candidate who isn't 'connected' or who could facilitate change. The only way to reach the goal of national office or influential state office is through the contributions of PACs. They have plenty of money, but they want results from their political investment. They've got it 100% of the time in the past 20 years. 

The finest example of their influence is the criminal worker amnesty program supported by Senator McCain. The results of that legislation were opposed US citizen view by a 3-1 margin. Yet it almost passed due to the influence of PACs paying to insure a continued source of low income workers at the expense of US Citizens and US Unions. Without the grassroots battle that ensued it would have passed, voted for by congress members who's campaigns are financed by PACs.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:15:47 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


OK, I see it now.  You prefer to protect people rather than rights.  I take the other approach.

By the way, he WAS a monster

PPS, If I say that Nazis are monsters and Hitler is a Nazi.  I'm saying Hitler is a monster.  Classic set theory.


Yes, I seek to protect people from the results of threats and hatred directed towards them, the results of which are an infringement of their rights.

I do not however seek to protect organisations and associations from criticism or ridicule. Thus

"Islam is a foolish religion" - is perfectly OK
"Muslims are fools" is also OK, but getting nearer the mark
"Muslims are idiots who should be shot" - is perfectly wrong

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:19:41 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


OK, I see it now.  You prefer to protect people rather than rights.  I take the other approach.

By the way, he WAS a monster

PPS, If I say that Nazis are monsters and Hitler is a Nazi.  I'm saying Hitler is a monster.  Classic set theory.


Yes, I seek to protect people from the results of threats and hatred directed towards them, the results of which are an infringement of their rights.

I do not however seek to protect organisations and associations from criticism or ridicule. Thus

"Islam is a foolish religion" - is perfectly OK
"Muslims are fools" is also OK, but getting nearer the mark
"Muslims are idiots who should be shot" - is perfectly wrong

E


What do you think about the people on this board that routinely trash Christians, Jesus and GOD?
 
People regularly trash Christians on here like it is open season.
That means it is open season for all religions, views and beliefs.
 
If you can trash one religion and it is okay, than it is okay to trash all religions.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/20/2008 12:26:17 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:22:14 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Why doesn't someone have the right to be an asshole? Why must they be respectful?


quote:

ORIGINAL: DrummerDom

In the following order:

1) Be respectful*
2) Say what you want.

Generally if people aren't respectful themselves, they waive their right to respectful replies.  When this happens, I either ignore them or, if I can get away with it, do my hardest to get under the skin.

I don't always like what people say, but if it's a legitimate and/or respectful point, that's usually my problem, not theirs.



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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:24:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Weren't you saying a couple of months back how O'Reilly and Hannity need to be silenced?


quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

"The only acceptable form of censorship is the right of people not to listen."
                                                                                     -Tommy Smothers

Mercnbeth is quite correct. It's the unpopular views that need to be protected most of all. We need to hear those folks who keep saying that guns are bad, that porn is bad, that the American way of life is bad. Without them, we're all in a wagonload of dynamite racing down hill with no brakes, and no way to steer. (Sort of the way we have been for the last seven years and five months.) Dissent has been crushed in this country. Even if we all rose up and ripped Bush apart at the seams, like some jerkwad getting his just desserts in a George Romero movie, we couldn't get ourselves out of Iraq. The Congress is sitting there with the power, but refuses to use it, as not to maim their chances at the white house. In the meantime, men are dying. They won't restart the draft, because they know that would just re-ignite the kind of chaos the 60's were known for. Everyone's complacent, and unwilling to speak up, just so long as things don't affect THEM.

America: home of the cowardly, land of the sheep.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:27:33 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		The exchange of ideas use communication, ala speech. Not sure how you do not see that. You cannot legislate emotions, and hate is an emotion. You can create laws for the actions. I am so glad I live in the US so I have the right to speak my mind, within very few limitations. Squelching free speech is the a step towards the government having a vice grip on the people, but then again the culture in the old country seems to have gotten used to that. Try liberty for a change, you may like it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can say what ever I want about anything or anybody, as long as
a) its not threatening, and
b) it isnt intended to incite hatred of any person or group of persons (this doesnt include associations to which persons or groups of persons might belong)


Your b listed above is not restriction of speech, but an attempt to restrict thought. While I personally do not agree with anyone that tries to promote hatred of groups, and such, it is a personal moral and not one that should be imposed via law.

What if suddenly the majority said that anything that promotes sex change operations, homosexuality and such and they passed a law against speaking about such things? Seperate your personal morals (right and wrong) from what should be imposed on everyone.



One cannot restrict thought. One does however restrict the right of people to make public statements which are threatening and which incite hatred against a person or group of persons - both conditions must be satisified.

Your second point indicates exactly why our legislation is framed as it is - such that it also must protect the most unpopular people and groups of people, as varies from time to time. I personally find it perverse that the nazis here are protected from having threats made against them and hate stirred up against them by the law - but it is my personal opinion that they're a pain in the neck, not a basis for determining law.

E



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:32:58 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Why can't you say anything to them?  So we're all allowed to pontificate... just no rebuttals.  Where's the sport in that?


But Padraig, the Left (and I'm not talking about liberals here) claim to be intellectually superior to you and I.
They claim to be "smarter" than us so their opinions "must" be right and ours inferior.

_____________________________

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:35:57 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
You can create laws for the actions.


Now all you have to realise is that speech is an action.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:36:22 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		the funny thing about rights is that your rights end where mine begin...your rights cannot infringe on my rights just for the sake of having your rights...you cannot slander me under the "right to free speech" becuase i have the right not to be slandered...just like the your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins...and words can cause harm...so as long as my words do not cause another person harm i can say whatever i want...but the minute my words cause another person harm my right to free speech ends...


chelle


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:44:32 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

the funny thing about rights is that your rights end where mine begin...your rights cannot infringe on my rights just for the sake of having your rights...you cannot slander me under the "right to free speech" becuase i have the right not to be slandered...just like the your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins...and words can cause harm...so as long as my words do not cause another person harm i can say whatever i want...but the minute my words cause another person harm my right to free speech ends...


chelle





So many interesting and great comments here.
I love this topic, because "Free Speech" often stops being "Free Speech" when a large
enough group/or the ruling power is offended!!!
I had to peak at what was going on in China, not much free speech there.

China (includes Tibet, Hong Kong, and Macau)

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:49:40 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The exchange of ideas use communication, ala speech. Not sure how you do not see that. You cannot legislate emotions, and hate is an emotion. You can create laws for the actions. I am so glad I live in the US so I have the right to speak my mind, within very few limitations. Squelching free speech is the a step towards the government having a vice grip on the people, but then again the culture in the old country seems to have gotten used to that. Try liberty for a change, you may like it.


I do not see how the expression of emotions is not otherwise legislated against - and indeed you recognise that much I see. No one can stop me thinking how great it would be to kill my neighbour, but the instant I realise how great it is by killing him I fall foul of the law. Note that there is no law against hating your neighbour.

The law concerns expressing one's thoughts about one's neighbour with the intention of provoking, encouraging or otherwise soliciting others to accomplish the realisation of how great it would be to kill him.

As such an offence is committed along the lines of soliciting another to commit an offence, except in this instance the person one is soliciting is not solicited personally. It is therefore not a huge jump in terms of enacting legislation, but a natural extension of the existing laws on soliciting another to commit an offence.

Where it is possible to solicit others to commit offences which are an expression of one's hatred for another or a group of others, there cannot be liberty, for any and all may fall prey to the committing of such offences. Whilst those who commit the offence may be punished, it is perverse to hold that the directing force behind the intent to commit the offence may remain unpunished. However, there must be proof of this influence and proof that this influence was intended to solicit others to commit the offence.

E



_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 12:53:48 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		What was it about labelling people, popeye? You've been going on about 'The Left' like a broken record for about a dozen posts in a row, as if it were an all-encompassing term for all those out there who disagree with your idea of a perfect society. For someone who doesn't like labels, you certainly use them a lot.

Just sayin'  .

_____________________________



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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:09:11 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

What do you think about the people on this board that routinely trash Christians, Jesus and GOD?
 
People regularly trash Christians on here like it is open season.
That means it is open season for all religions, views and beliefs.
 
If you can trash one religion and it is okay, than it is okay to trash all religions.


Hi Mia

I find it perfectly OK to trash Jesus and God, the Church (or any denominational form of the Church), the Bible and all the other institutions of Christianity and Christianity too. And yes, its perfectly OK to do the same with any other religion or other system of belief, including political systems.

As for Christians as a group of people, one must be careful not to make threats and incite hatred against Christians as a group of people. It would be perfectly OK (slander/libel notwithstanding) to identify someone as a Christian and trash them for something, but not to imply that this person then represents all Christians and so associate the shortcomings of the one with the whole.

Its a balancing act to be sure - to protect from hatred and to uphold freedom of speech, and its one thats difficult to maintain, still less to explain.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:12:26 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Humm, I read what you wrote Lady E and it's a very, very, slippery slope.
 
I have a lot of negative comments I could make about Muslims, Judaism, Pagens,
Devil Worshippers, Witches, etc. and many other organized religions.

I hope I am above trashing other people's beliefs, because I do not share them.

I guess we all set our own personal "bar".
  
To each their own.
 
I am glad I was born in America and I am enjoying my right to "Free Speech",
with the inherent limitations that go with it.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/20/2008 1:20:29 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:20:38 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Why can't you say anything to them?  So we're all allowed to pontificate... just no rebuttals.  Where's the sport in that?


But Padraig, the Left (and I'm not talking about liberals here) claim to be intellectually superior to you and I.
They claim to be "smarter" than us so their opinions "must" be right and ours inferior.

Well they must be pretty clever... how else can they be Left and still be Right...

I don't care if they are left, right, middle, up or down... people can self label themselves whatever they like and claim whatever they like.  It is what they do that holds my attention.  Now the topic is free speech, and that being the case and trying to stay on topic... I've said what I think free speech is... and what I think of it (which isn't much actually).  There's much to do made about it, and much said about it being quashed, restricted, etc.  Yet we have a media that reports on whatever it damn well pleases (which often isn't worth much most of the time if you ask me...).  We, and when I say we I mean Americans, have a population which can and routinely does pontificate about, rant about, whine about, bitch about pretty much everything you can imagine.  With all the hullabaloo about the CDA, Patriot Act, the Left, the Right, etc... I still see the vast majority of people saying pretty much whatever they want.   And while some love to wring their hands while nervously expecting the storm troopers to haul them off in a moment of meladramatic glory... for 99% that moment never comes...   Seems to me most of America doesn't have a lot to complain about where free speech is concerned... yet they do anyway because, hell, I'm starting to think its the national hobby.

But really, what does all that free speech actually gain you?  There's an interesting question no one seems to want to address.  What do you get when you have 300 million people bitching about anything and everything?  With all that free "speech" going on, does anyone really listen?  How much of it just get's tuned out, turned off and plain old ignored.

What good is free speech if you've nothing worthwhile to say?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:24:14 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		<<<-----what Padriag says as usual!
 
Bitching about what other people can and cannot say, IS a hobby!
I love it.
The fucking "Free Speech" police, I think I will call them.

They normally only police "shit" they don't agree with.
Say what the hell you want to say, but realize I can also say what I want to say.

Padriag, sigh you rock.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:26:48 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

The fucking "Free Speech" police, I think I will call them.



Who did you say? You posted this thread, so I find your present virulence troubling: are you including yourself in that so-called police?

_____________________________



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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:28:47 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

The fucking "Free Speech" police, I think I will call them.



Who did you say? You posted this thread, so I find your present virulence troubling: are you including yourself in that so-called police?


LOL.
No, I really am not trying to stifle or control what others say.
The title of this thread is "What does Free Speech mean to you?"

I think Free Speech rocks!
 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/20/2008 1:30:08 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:29:46 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		It's my fault for saying Jesus doesn't exist.

I take it all back, he is actually a car salesman.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 1:32:10 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Humm, I read what you wrote Lady E and it's a very, very, slippery slope.
 
I have a lot of negative comments I could make about Muslims, Judism, and so many other organized religions.
I hope I am above trashing other people's beliefs, because I do not share them.

I guess we all set our own personal "bar".
  
To each their own.
 
I am glad I was born in America and I am enjoying my right to "Free Speech",
with the inherent limitations that go with it.


There shouldnt be any issue with trashing Islam, Judaism etc
Islam is a religion which promotes the violent conversion of members.

As long as its not a cover for threatening Muslims, Jews etc and inciting hatred against them.
Islam is a religion in which its members are urged to use violence to convert us; we shall resist and destroy this vile agression.

And threatening Muslims, Jews etc and inciting hatred against them is off limits.
Muslims wish to convert by violence; we shall resist and destroy these vile aggressors.

Think of a crime as being solicited by someone else. I for instance, solicit you to kill my neighbour. I am guilty of an offence.

I am not guilty of an offence, if I happen to mention to you that I'd be better off if my neighbour were dead.

In this instance of free speech, I am soliciting unknown other or others to commit murder, where I am making statements of threat and intendedly promoting hatred of a group. I am guilty of an offence.

I am not guilty of an offence, if I happen to say to a group that it were better that some people were not around.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 80
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