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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:18:07 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		What terrifies you so much because it can lead to a public prosecution in France would probably lead to a private one in the USA.

PS: just saw your answer on the previous page. Why not? Because Mitterrand was an individual. Should a person have made a threat against him, the person in question could have been prosecuted for 'threatening with intent to harm'. The law that troubles you so much is very specific. I suggest you read it again.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/20/2008 3:23:26 PM >

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:20:29 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		"Terrifies"?
 
No, I doubt it would lead to a "private" one here.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:22:55 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Bah, Level, I can nearly 'feel' your concern. It's okay: I feel the same way about American guns  .

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:31:29 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		In response to comments about religion: I actually have come to agree that certain faiths seem open to criticism when others are not.  I think it is historically because Christianity is established as most western countries' official religion - and hence adherents and former adherents often were poking fun at themselves.  Having been raised within a religion, I have mocked aspects of it - that may well be wrong - but I still think a joke should be judged on how funny it is and not how irreverent it is, which is what tends to happen.

The UK is currently revoking its laws on blasphemy, with the agreement of the Church of England, since they are the only denomination covered by it.  Technically, you can defame Catholicism, Methodism, Islam, or Zoroastrianism without legal penalty but to defame Anglicanism would be quite different.  Its a throwback to another era and overdue to be repealed.  I think it will be tied into the new Criminal Justice Bill.

More generally, I approve of having certain restrictions on speech. As the blasphemy changes illustrate, subsequent generations can always modify law. So long as said law is acting in support of those that lack other avenues of redress and not to oppress them, it is doing precisely the opposite of what Nazi law did. 

I would be much more concerned if we had in the UK a deferential media, one which failed to properly interrogate politicians.  While some countries - like the US, for example - have strong legal backing for freedom of the press, convention dictates it is never practically utilised.  In such an environment, the freedom to rant about your hate figures of choice is worthless, because you have long given up any attempt at making informed choices on just whom to hate.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:39:08 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Bah, Level, I can nearly 'feel' your concern. It's okay: I feel the same way about American guns  .


That's me checking you for ID that you're feeling.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:43:36 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I can't feel what you're feeling: but I can imagine how painful it must be, seeing as I'm in a similarly puzzling cultural conundrum.

At least, be thankful for the fact that you don't have to live amongst the wolves  .

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:45:35 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Can I ask why you made the move over here? Are you enjoying yourself, for the most part?
 
No wolves currently, but I did just have to go outside to chase off a possum.

< Message edited by Level -- 4/20/2008 3:46:10 PM >

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:49:20 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Why can't you say anything to them?  So we're all allowed to pontificate... just no rebuttals.  Where's the sport in that?


But Padraig, the Left (and I'm not talking about liberals here) claim to be intellectually superior to you and I.
They claim to be "smarter" than us so their opinions "must" be right and ours inferior.


Well if you were to compare George W. Bush with someone like Wladimir Lenin you've got to admit Popeye that they do have a point.

However it's important not to generalize and label people.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:49:58 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		You argue for points, don't you? Actions are those things where we do something directly, and that is the use I refer to. Why is that not difficult for you to figure out. Are you used to arguing to win a debate by points, rather than an exchange of ideas? Speech is a reflection of thought, a form of communication to exchange those thoughts, so laws to restrict speech also restrict the free flow of ideas.

You still didn't read any of those web sites did you?


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
You can create laws for the actions.


Now all you have to realise is that speech is an action.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 3:51:41 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		The tort system, not the criminal justice system, is used in the case below, and I agree. It is not a case of the state stepping in, but the case of another exerting their right if someone slanders you. BIG, BIG, Difference but in general I very much agree with your statement below.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

the funny thing about rights is that your rights end where mine begin...your rights cannot infringe on my rights just for the sake of having your rights...you cannot slander me under the "right to free speech" becuase i have the right not to be slandered...just like the your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins...and words can cause harm...so as long as my words do not cause another person harm i can say whatever i want...but the minute my words cause another person harm my right to free speech ends...


chelle



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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:01:16 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Can I ask why you made the move over here? Are you enjoying yourself, for the most part?
 


You can ask away, but I won't answer on a public forum board.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:14:50 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
You argue for points, don't you?

No 1-0
quote:


Actions are those things where we do something directly, and that is the use I refer to.

I tend to see it like the butterfly effect with everything we do having consequences, even speech. Bitterfly maybe.
quote:


Why is that not difficult for you to figure out.

I don't know if you intended that to be a double negative but thanks
quote:


Are you used to arguing to win a debate by points, rather than an exchange of ideas?

I don't know I've always had this romantic idea that people would listen to my thoughts and they would have some influence on their ideas. I've not seen much of that happening of late maybe my ideas are shit.
quote:


Speech is a reflection of thought, a form of communication to exchange those thoughts, so laws to restrict speech also restrict the free flow of ideas.

An evil that must occur if the idea this speech leads to is far worse.
quote:


You still didn't read any of those web sites did you?

I checked this thread for linkage the last time you asked me that. I have to conclude that you are talking about another discussion we have had in the past and I've forgot. Sorry please give me the links again so that I may review them.



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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:21:07 PM   
Level


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quote:

Speech is a reflection of thought, a form of communication to exchange those thoughts, so laws to restrict speech also restrict the free flow of ideas.


quote:

An evil that must occur if the idea this speech leads to is far worse.


But aren't we guessing at this? To curtail someone's speech on a whim, a guess.....

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:29:40 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		Free speech...What does it mean?


It no longer has value.

That is what we have allowed to happen. No one questions shit. Some figurehead spews it and the puppets stand in line to slurp it up. No questions asked. And when confronted by the truth many would rather cling to their own beliefs and notions of free speech in lieu of putting in the time to find out if "the words" that they are allowing themselves to be force fed actually have any value.


Free speech. Forget it. I want mine to have truth and worth.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:29:45 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		The problem is Level as an enlightened society we feel some topics are obviously off the agenda. There is no need to debate if murder is fine for example. There is therefore no need to debate if members of a particular religion should be rounded up and shot. This isn't debate that is being curtailed but evil thoughts and opinions that influence the minds of people that don't know better and are looking for someone to blame for their position in life.

What legitimate reason is there for anyone to publicly say we should kill all members of this group? I just don't understand this when we know what inspires a suicide bomber is someone far removed from the crime.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:31:13 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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Status: offline 		Free speech is a tool, it is not only my right, but also my responsibility to use and protect it.
 
To not speak up when I witnesses injustice, or the misconceived idea of another, is unbeneficial to the goal.
 
However, it is also up to me to be responsible in using it. Not considering timing, approach, tone, and intent would also be unbeneficial to the goal.
 
k

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:46:58 PM   
caitlyn


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Not wanting to enter the legal fray of what is free and what isn't, as there are people more wise than me right here in this thread ... to me, "free speech" is anything but free, because everyone is judged, one way or the other, by what they do, and say.
 
Political correctness dictates what is "free" one day to the next. I have heard posters come on here and rail at the idiot nature of most people, in stark self-superiority ..and that seems to be fine. If however, you rail at the fat nature of people, or the (insert race or religion) of people ... thats doesn't seem to be fine today ... you are picking on them because of the way they were born, and thats not right ... besides, its on the PC Hit List! Of course, people that aren't as smart are also born that way ... but, they can be picked on, because that isn't part of today's political correctness. We can rationalize by saying they are not as smart, because they don't work to improve themselves and get educated ... but somehow that doesn't translate over to the issue of weight, or smoking or drinking too much (which I do) ... or dating loser men (which I also do) ... we get a PC-Pass, because it's on todays list!
 
It's all bullshit to me. Judge not, for you may be judged. Everyone has the right to think whatever they want, and possibly the freedom to speak it ... but that doesn't make it right, and nobody said that just because you feel it, you have to say it. OK ... Dido said that ... but that's just a song.
 
This has been the most disjointed and illogical post in my long history of disjointed and illogical posts ... but I have the freedom to post it.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:51:45 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

That is what we have allowed to happen. No one questions shit. Some figurehead spews it and the puppets stand in line to slurp it up. No questions asked. And when confronted by the truth many would rather cling to their own beliefs and notions of free speech in lieu of putting in the time to find out if "the words" that they are allowing themselves to be force fed actually have any value.

At what point in history has this not generally been the status quo?

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:57:40 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Judge not, for you may be judged.

To no one in particular

I wonder, would that really be so terrible... to be judged by our peers.  Or is it the terror of being found wanting that they really fear?

By all means, judge me and if you find me wanting, say so that I may profit from it. 

But then I've always been an odd bird.  Caitlyn won't date me either... dammit.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 4:59:49 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

By all means, judge me and if you find me wanting, say so that I may profit from it. 


I’ll second this.
 
k

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