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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 5:03:25 PM   
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quote:

Free speech...What does it mean?


It no longer has value.

That is what we have allowed to happen. No one questions shit. Some figurehead spews it and the puppets stand in line to slurp it up. No questions asked. And when confronted by the truth many would rather cling to their own beliefs and notions of free speech in lieu of putting in the time to find out if "the words" that they are allowing themselves to be force fed actually have any value.


Free speech. Forget it. I want mine to have truth and worth.


Me too.

quote:

The problem is Level as an enlightened society we feel some topics are obviously off the agenda. There is no need to debate if murder is fine for example. There is therefore no need to debate if members of a particular religion should be rounded up and shot. This isn't debate that is being curtailed but evil thoughts and opinions that influence the minds of people that don't know better and are looking for someone to blame for their position in life.

What legitimate reason is there for anyone to publicly say we should kill all members of this group? I just don't understand this when we know what inspires a suicide bomber is someone far removed from the crime.



Well, I don't see the Bardot quotes as "evil", more stupid than anything. And I again assert that we are guessing as to what their effect would be. You cannot be certain that someone would act on them, and even if you could, blame should fall on the one acting.
 
The difference between her and bin Laden is that she isn't (as far as I know) telling anyone to harm Muslims. Bin Laden is (I believe) telling his toadies to act. Of course, now I'm guessing.
 
There is no reason for anyone to say "kill all members of this group"..... now, which group are we discussing? Muslims? If so, who said "kill them all"?



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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 5:06:17 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General ...
 
Not wanting to enter the legal fray of what is free and what isn't, as there are people more wise than me right here in this thread ... to me, "free speech" is anything but free, because everyone is judged, one way or the other, by what they do, and say.
 
Political correctness dictates what is "free" one day to the next. I have heard posters come on here and rail at the idiot nature of most people, in stark self-superiority ..and that seems to be fine. If however, you rail at the fat nature of people, or the (insert race or religion) of people ... thats doesn't seem to be fine today ... you are picking on them because of the way they were born, and thats not right ... besides, its on the PC Hit List! Of course, people that aren't as smart are also born that way ... but, they can be picked on, because that isn't part of today's political correctness. We can rationalize by saying they are not as smart, because they don't work to improve themselves and get educated ... but somehow that doesn't translate over to the issue of weight, or smoking or drinking too much (which I do) ... or dating loser men (which I also do) ... we get a PC-Pass, because it's on todays list!
 
It's all bullshit to me. Judge not, for you may be judged. Everyone has the right to think whatever they want, and possibly the freedom to speak it ... but that doesn't make it right, and nobody said that just because you feel it, you have to say it. OK ... Dido said that ... but that's just a song.
 
This has been the most disjointed and illogical post in my long history of disjointed and illogical posts ... but I have the freedom to post it.


I dunno, some of your anti-Julius Jones posts are pretty gnarly.....

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 5:23:58 PM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Free speech...What does it mean?


It no longer has value.

That is what we have allowed to happen. No one questions shit. Some figurehead spews it and the puppets stand in line to slurp it up. No questions asked. And when confronted by the truth many would rather cling to their own beliefs and notions of free speech in lieu of putting in the time to find out if "the words" that they are allowing themselves to be force fed actually have any value.


Free speech. Forget it. I want mine to have truth and worth.


       Free speech means less and less as words have less and less value, or suffer from variable definitions.
       i question many things as they are said, and will guard your ability and freedom to question my beliefs and notions.
       my truth is that while i might find your choice of words and attitude goes against my senses and beliefs that you are more than welcome to express them.  I feel there is more value in trying to understand your views, than in suggesting/insisting that you shut your pie hole, or insisting that the line of hogwash you follow is considerably more bologna than you claim is the line that i follow.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 5:24:35 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

By all means, judge me and if you find me wanting, say so that I may profit from it. 


And I "third" it.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 5:50:45 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
There is no reason for anyone to say "kill all members of this group"..... now, which group are we discussing? Muslims? If so, who said "kill them all"?


My understanding of the UK law was that she would have had to have made threats of violence or support groups that made threats of violence to fall foul of the law. Either the French law varies considerably or there is more to this that isn't being reported.

I think there is also an element of 'she is high profile' so dangerous because some think her opinions carry more weight.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 6:42:53 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I fail to see how promoting same sex marriage would in any way threaten homosexuals or incite hatred towards them?

If you mean that my promotion thereof might cause others to make threats towards and incite hatred against homosexuals, then these others would be guilty of an offence, not I.

E


You made my point LadyEllen... you have no idea the hatred you would promote towards homosexuals and yourself...you are not familiar with that part of the world I believe...but let me tell you that it will do just that... do you still have the right to promote same sex marriage...and will you as part of your free speech.

Butch



< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/20/2008 6:52:26 PM >

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 6:52:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
You argue for points, don't you?

No 1-0


Got a chuckle out of that.
quote:


quote:


Actions are those things where we do something directly, and that is the use I refer to.

I tend to see it like the butterfly effect with everything we do having consequences, even speech. Bitterfly maybe.


That is really stretching things. Almost like making all of mankind a hive mind. This is probably where we diverge. I believe that thoughts and speech, can be seperated from action via discipline and self control. This is how someone can have a theoretical discussion and play Devil's Advocate. From your comment above, a couple of social scientist speaking of a theory, if it were discussing one of the "hate speech" areas, could have the same effect. Why then do we not stop that speech as well?
quote:


quote:


Why is that not difficult for you to figure out.

I don't know if you intended that to be a double negative but thanks
quote:


Are you used to arguing to win a debate by points, rather than an exchange of ideas?

I don't know I've always had this romantic idea that people would listen to my thoughts and they would have some influence on their ideas. I've not seen much of that happening of late maybe my ideas are shit.


I think they are shit, not you the ideas, but no matter how much I feel that way, I also do not feel government should stop anyone from voicing a shit idea or opinion. Let social pressure correct that.
quote:


quote:


Speech is a reflection of thought, a form of communication to exchange those thoughts, so laws to restrict speech also restrict the free flow of ideas.

An evil that must occur if the idea this speech leads to is far worse.


Evil? Once you head down this slippery slope, where does it end? Will it suddenly be punishable by death to say something bad about the Queen?
quote:


quote:


You still didn't read any of those web sites did you?

I checked this thread for linkage the last time you asked me that. I have to conclude that you are talking about another discussion we have had in the past and I've forgot. Sorry please give me the links again so that I may review them.




My bad. I must be losing my fucking mind. I posted them in the other thread that was discussing Free Speech.

Here are some web sites on Free Speech:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/1st-Amendment-Free-342/hate-speech.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12808pub19941231.html

http://www.tjcenter.org/

I leave you with a few quotes:

"I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too.
Thomas Jefferson "
 
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.
Thomas Jefferson  "

 
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson "

 
"It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.
Thomas Jefferson "


< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 4/20/2008 6:53:05 PM >


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 6:55:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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I think one of the problems is assuming that we are enlightened. We are still little better than animals with desires, wants, ethics, and virtues. Different people have different ones, and when they clash there can be problems.


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The problem is Level as an enlightened society we feel some topics are obviously off the agenda. There is no need to debate if murder is fine for example. There is therefore no need to debate if members of a particular religion should be rounded up and shot. This isn't debate that is being curtailed but evil thoughts and opinions that influence the minds of people that don't know better and are looking for someone to blame for their position in life.

What legitimate reason is there for anyone to publicly say we should kill all members of this group? I just don't understand this when we know what inspires a suicide bomber is someone far removed from the crime.



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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 6:59:00 PM   
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Well one of my directives now supercedes another. "Judge not for you may be judged." does not mean what you are implying. The scripture it comes from actually states that judgement is fine. The complete portion is "Judge not, lest ye be judged by your own measure." This means that if you do judge, then expect to be judge by the same standards. It is a lesson against hypocricy, not a lesson to not judge others.

I would not have responded to your post, but this fallacy of that scripture telling people not to judge, is on my hit list to correct.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It's all bullshit to me. Judge not, for you may be judged. Everyone has the right to think whatever they want, and possibly the freedom to speak it ... but that doesn't make it right, and nobody said that just because you feel it, you have to say it. OK ... Dido said that ... but that's just a song.
 


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 7:02:39 PM   
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All people judge. Let me say this again, all people judge. It is how we form opinions of what we like or dislike. One must compare something to another, and in so doing we judge. Judging is not bad. How can you determine the value of anything in your life without judging?

People often use this misquote to say we should be more tolerant. To what extent should we be more tolerant? Society will always apply pressures to what society does not like. If someone caves into that society, so be it, the strength of society has squashed another sheep. If someone resists it, then they are on their way to thinking for themselves, and loving themselves, regardless of what others think.

To thine own self be true.

Break time before someone screams that I am "flooding".


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Judge not, for you may be judged.

To no one in particular

I wonder, would that really be so terrible... to be judged by our peers.  Or is it the terror of being found wanting that they really fear?

By all means, judge me and if you find me wanting, say so that I may profit from it. 

But then I've always been an odd bird.  Caitlyn won't date me either... dammit.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 7:02:56 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Caitlyn won't date me either... dammit.


After my ruined attempt at becoming an Army officer's wife, "Cait" and "date" are no longer happening.
 
I mean ... I got dumped ... by someone in Iraq ... because "it wasn't working out."
 
Ummmmmmm, well...... no shit .... you're in fucking Iraq ... and I'm in fucking Houston ... a girl only fucking do so much.
 
Not that I'm bitter or venting! <~~ total exercise in free speech

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 4/20/2008 7:03:41 PM >


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 7:05:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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You just need a shorter chain girl ;-)


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Caitlyn won't date me either... dammit.


After my ruined attempt at becoming an Army officer's wife, "Cait" and "date" are no longer happening.
 
I mean ... I got dumped ... by someone in Iraq ... because "it wasn't working out."
 
Ummmmmmm, well...... no shit .... you're in fucking Iraq ... and I'm in fucking Houston ... a girl only fucking do so much.
 
Not that I'm bitter or venting! <~~ total exercise in free speech


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 7:11:38 PM   
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... or a liquor store ... open on Sunday ... that delivers.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 7:19:23 PM   
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When you say free speech, I think, actually, of freedom of expression, which I consider to be the freedom to acknowledge and express anything that you can think or feel or imagine or experience - freedom to express anything in the human experience, without censure.

Now, I acknowledge that it is reasonable to limit the times and places for expressing some things, so that, for example, it can be expressed to adults but not to children, or so that anyone can choose whether to be exposed to potentially disturbing material, as opposed to encountering it without warning.  I believe this can still allow freedom of expression; in fact, it can encourage it, by removing the objections that most people have to expression they want to censor.

But I believe this can be done without compromising the freedom to express, as long as the limitations are not used to limit the access to an audience or a venue for expression.  So, for example, when supposed "family friendly" groups attempt to censor adult content in film, using its influence on children as their excuse for the limitation, this would not reflect freedom of expression, because it encourages limiting expression to only that which is suitable for children, even when being viewed by adults.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 9:52:01 PM   
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That is why I stock up on saturday. Want a beer and a shot?

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

... or a liquor store ... open on Sunday ... that delivers.


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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 10:13:38 PM   
greenearth21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

What does "Free Speech" mean to you?

 


Free speech means being able to say what you want when you want.  Although i do recommend discretion. I say what i want to say, well aware of the fact that not everyone will agree.  also that they will state their opinions which they are very much entitled to as I am entitled to mine. 
I am cautious of what i say around who (especially..children and my family) but other than that...everyone is a big boy/girl...they can handle it.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/20/2008 11:24:32 PM   
meatcleaver


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General point.

When it comes to muslims, free speach is not a waste of time because one is not talking to a wall (like one's government), one is talking to the over sensitive who will be very insulted and will take action.

On the other hand, rather than trying to reason with their government over the Iraqi war and marched peacefully to exercise their free speach, if the Brits rioted, we wouldn't have taken part in an illegal neo-imperial war.

Free speach only has meaning if someone is listening and the people in power never ever listen, they only react when people take action beyond free speach. That is the only reason why people in the west, on the whole, have reasonable wages and conditions. They stopped talking and took action.

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/21/2008 12:48:33 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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The only thing that should be banned in regards to speech, are those things directly soliciting direct acts of violence against another person or organization.

That's it.

IMO....

I wish someone would kill George Bush...(Fine, didn't plan or try to organize the action).
I hate whites...(Fine, hatred isn't against the law, or at least it shouldn't be, as we all, hate at one point or another, seems illogical to punish an universally expressed emotion).
Let's go out tonight and hang us some blacks(Illegal, as it's a direct call to physical violence).
Fran is a Bitch,and a fucking cunt licking, slut..(Fine).
Islam is for fags(Fine, it's an opinion, with no direct physical call to violence).
If any wetbacks walk in here let's kick the shit out of them(Not fine, direct call to violence).
White trash bitches, that fuck niggers deserve to be shot(this one may or may not be fine depending on context, As in some guy in his living room or porch reading the newspaper about something, and he says it, Fine. A guy with a gun confronting a bi-racial couple saying that, would be considered a direct threat of harm).
Fags, are the spawn of satan(Fine, it's an opinion, with out physical consequence).

Now, I don't agree with any of those statements, but I see no reason to make stating the ones I tagged "Fine", illegal in and of themselves. Unless the goal is to eliminate hatred. LOL, yeah, that's a quick path to hell. You can't eliminate a base human emotion, you can only at best punish those that act on those emotions in a physical way.

Most talk even hate filled talk is just that or else millions upon millions of americans would be killed yearly, by hate word spewing attackers.

Anyway, I'd rather run the risk of being called a foul word, than run the risk of being prosecuted for a temporary anger burst.

Oh, yes, people will point to examples that could have been stopped if such laws were in place, I could point to examples as well, that with a little more hatred could have alleviated a lot of suffering as well. It's a dual edged sword mind you, humans, as hard as we try to be psychic still have not gained the ability to distinguish between two persons speaking identical words, which will commit a "real" crime and which will not. Thus what's the fucking point of banning something that is indeterminant at best. "Innocent until proven guilty".

Hatred is an innate human quality, sorry it sucks but it is, and any attempt to remove the ability of expressing that hatred is just as severe and unacceptable a limitation as not being able to criticize the government.


Besides, society has plenty of power to deal with these things without restricting "freedom of speech", if anything we are social creatures, even those of us that are less social than the norm. People are self-correcting in there viewpoints given proper ridicule by their peer group, thus if speech is being promoted it probably means a fair portion of the public believes it, so silencing that group would only alienate them further.

Legislating speech doesn't work, outside the boundaries of direct calls to harm. You may imprison or fine some people, but it does nothing to degrade the mentality and feeling, and the only way to change a persons view is to you guessed it, talk to them honestly. Nothing else works.

Anyway, that is my view, ban direct calls to harm that's about it. Everything else is subjective and alienates the hate group further.




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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/21/2008 12:50:59 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I fail to see how promoting same sex marriage would in any way threaten homosexuals or incite hatred towards them?

If you mean that my promotion thereof might cause others to make threats towards and incite hatred against homosexuals, then these others would be guilty of an offence, not I.

E


You made my point LadyEllen... you have no idea the hatred you would promote towards homosexuals and yourself...you are not familiar with that part of the world I believe...but let me tell you that it will do just that... do you still have the right to promote same sex marriage...and will you as part of your free speech.

Butch




Sorry no. I can see what youre saying, but my promotion of gay marriage is not intended to generate hatred, but to promote gay marriage. It is a matter of intent. Without that, then the whole thing becomes ridiculous, since someone somewhere may always take offence at anything and we may not speak at all.

Now, if I were against gay marriage and promoted it in full knowledge that it would generate hatred, that becomes a different matter. But to establish proof for that would require evidence of my prior stance and my intent.

You might recall a thread I posted here, supposedly reporting on a press release by Combat 18 (neo-nazi group), threatening to bomb mosques in response to terrorist actions here and the slaying of British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I made it clear therein that it was a hoax, however - this would be along the lines of your argument regarding promoting gay marriage I feel; indeed, the point of posting it was to see what the reaction might be from what is primarily a western audience here of Christian background. Had it encouraged hatred for Muslims (note, not Islam) and that had been my intention, then I would be guilty of an offence.

If I had released that story to Islamic organisations, and done a good enough job of it that it was convincing to them, with the intent of generating anger and hatred on the part of the Muslim audience for the rest of the population - then that would be an offence.

As it was, I made clear it was a hoax and was more interested in the reaction - would the audience say "hear, hear" or condemn it? That the audience condemned it was a reassuring response.

E

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RE: What does "Free Speech" mean to you? - 4/21/2008 2:27:41 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

LadyE
Now, if I were against gay marriage and promoted it in full knowledge that it would generate hatred, that becomes a different matter
A gem. What will the PC fascists do about that he he he he he 

I advocate unlimited immigration into the UK. All immigrants to, on humanitarian grounds, be given free housing for one year.
Since the Koran is known by all to be the repository of ultimate truth I advocate Sharia law will be phased into the UK legal system and be fully implemented within one month.



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