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RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 4:58:44 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

well we conquered it more or less...so it is our problem. And now we don't know what to do.
Did they world change a lott in the positive way by doing all of this? not really
So best is to leave.....and safe the money for educatiion about the effects of drugs.

We did not "conquer" Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance overthrew the Taliban with our help. A new government came into being, and we claim to support its soveriegnty.

Save the money for education? How much education do we need about the effects of heroin? How much money does it cost to say that heroin is bad for you? Please spare me that nonsense. The world is better off without a Taliban controlled Afghanistan. People like yourself would have had us do nothing in response to the events of September 11, 2001. You would have allowed Afghanistan to continue prtecting terrorist training camps.

(in reply to Justme696)

Post #: 41

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 5:08:41 PM

BoiJen

Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
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It's not about it being illegal there or not. It's about how it's being used against us. On at least two levels it is. At the cost of American lives at that. So here we're left with a problem of strategic importance that isn't being dealt with on any level other than to pump in more American soldiers to be target practice. Call it purely selfish...(in my case it is...I want my family to ome home healthy, alive and in one piece) I'd rather see resources being put to destroy a source of revenue for an enemy. If that mean a scoiety needs to figure out a new source of income so be it. If there's a way to help bystandards afterwards great. Given the amount of time and money we've had to put to this issue already...I think it's likely to be cheaper to give them food after fire bombing their opium field.

Let's not look at what that might mean if the gov't bought that food from an American farmer. Suddenly the US is FINALLY putting money back into it's own economy rather than stifling it by paying soldiers who aren't even in the States to spend their income. And to add to it our soldiers would then be freed up to guard our own boarders and air space.

Maybe I have this backwards...I dunno. The way it's supposed to work is that according to international law, during a time of war civilian casualties are acceptable so long as the measure of the casualty cost does not out wiegh the military strategic advantage. Now, I know there's no given formula to caculate that. But given that getting rid of those fields kills two birds with one stone(at least), I think we have a good reason to take differect action.

boi

(in reply to orfunboi)

Post #: 42

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 5:14:04 PM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We did not "conquer" Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance overthrew the Taliban with our help. A new government came into being, and we claim to support its soveriegnty.

Save the money for education? How much education do we need about the effects of heroin? How much money does it cost to say that heroin is bad for you? Please spare me that nonsense. The world is better off without a Taliban controlled Afghanistan. People like yourself would have had us do nothing in response to the events of September 11, 2001. You would have allowed Afghanistan to continue prtecting terrorist training camps.

While I'm not the biggest supporter of extreme views, he's right. Drug education doesn't work very well. That's because it's not a primary focus for inner city and impovershed (sp?) areas. And it's also a source of income for such areas. Is it okay then? I don't think so (I hope we'd have established that already.)

I also don't think the action we've taken so far has gotten the results people expected after 9/11. It's not been appropriate action for the needed results. A more stategic approach and special forces action would have been appropriate. That wasn't action wasn't taken. Even now, making THAT change in direction would save more American lives. Please remember that we've already lost more American lives in the Middle East since 9/11 than we lost on 9/11 on American soil.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 43

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 6:29:41 PM

batshalom

Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline

Ok. We've established that ...

Drugs are not good (fun maybe, but not good).
The Taliban is not good.
Losing lives in this war-like thing is not good.

So.

What do we do? And more importantly! How do we do it? Getting a thought-provoking plan to the people in power couldn't hurt.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 44

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 6:52:21 PM

Leatherist

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Let them grow all they want-just shoot anyone who tries to export it.

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Post #: 45

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 7:00:02 PM

Irishknight

Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
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Again, why waste what we can use to make drugs for our hospitals? Have any of you seen the price of a shot of morphine lately? If we suddenly find a new and steady source then we could bring that cost down for those that need it. Other useful opiates could also come from the crop. If we work out a food trade system or something similar, it would benefit everyone but the Taliban.

(in reply to Leatherist)

Post #: 46

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 7:10:50 PM

BoiJen

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Again IrishKnight...the opium in Afghanistan is almost strictly used for heroin. NOT prescription drugs. How about let's use known non-opiate pain killers and try and keep the addiction to painkillers down a bit huh?

I like Leatherist's solution.

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 5/7/2008 7:11:22 PM >

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 47

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 7:29:27 PM

Irishknight

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There are other uses for opiates than pain killers. And if WE control the processing, it won't become heroin. And, sometimes a tylenol won't do for pain. The navy got me hooked on a non opiate painkiller when I hurt my knee then yanked it. I've dealt with that issue. I recieved shots of morphine when I had a camera shoved down my throat and into my lungs. I am not addicted and I thank the gods it was there. Proper use of something is still not abuse. I am only advocating that we use the crop for something good.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 48

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 7:36:04 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Again IrishKnight...the opium in Afghanistan is almost strictly used for heroin. NOT prescription drugs. How about let's use known non-opiate pain killers and try and keep the addiction to painkillers down a bit huh?

I like Leatherist's solution.

Maybe because the NSAIDs have more problems lon-term that opioids do? Maybe because there are some of us for whom NSAIDs are a joke? Maybe because true addiction to opioid analgesics used medicinally is rare?

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 49

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 7:41:22 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Which kills more people, opium or aspirin?

Per capita of users? That would be opium/opiates, Hippie. Both are naturally occuring substances that relieve pain. Only one turns users into junkie-scum though.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 50

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 7:43:31 PM

Irishknight

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NOOOOOO!!!!! I have agreed with Hippie!! What is this world coming to?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 51

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/7/2008 7:44:26 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The easy solution for this current situation, given all the factors involved, would be to purchase the crop and then destroy it. Preferably paying a little more than the open market for it - which cant be a lot, considering Afghani derived heroin in my neighbourhood is currently five pounds a go.

E

But that still puts the 'taxes' into the Taliban coffers, LadyE.

We should have burned those fields in 2001, when we had the political capitol to do it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 52

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 12:03:11 AM

calamitysandra

Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Again IrishKnight...the opium in Afghanistan is almost strictly used for heroin. NOT prescription drugs. How about let's use known non-opiate pain killers and try and keep the addiction to painkillers down a bit huh?

I like Leatherist's solution.

Maybe because the NSAIDs have more problems lon-term that opioids do? Maybe because there are some of us for whom NSAIDs are a joke? Maybe because true addiction to opioid analgesics used medicinally is rare?

And there we have it again, that problem with telling the truth. You will never learn, will you?

Personally, I think Lady E has proposed a nice course of action. Buy the stuff, pay a bit better a price, and then sell cheap food and other necessities to the farmers.
That would have the enormous advantage of not turning any more people into terrorits, and giving us a steady supply of opiates.
In addition, it will keep those farmers in a position in which they can feed themselfs and their families, instead of creating more people who are in need of hand outs.
In the long run, a win-win situation.

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(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 53

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 12:12:43 AM

Zensee

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Joined: 9/4/2004
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I bet the Marines passed on the opium because it had PROPERTY OF THE C.I.A. stamped all over it.

Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 5/8/2008 12:14:15 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 12:30:06 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Which kills more people, opium or aspirin?

Per capita of users? That would be opium/opiates, Hippie. Both are naturally occuring substances that relieve pain. Only one turns users into junkie-scum though.

You sure about that? I cannot find a source that breaks out DIRECT drug-related deaths. Direct would be overdose, since moderate use really doesn't do much. No liver damage, no brain damage, no nothing, really. Unlike the NSAIDs.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/causes.htm

I have not ever read about a plant containing aspirin.

My doctor doesn't want me to take aspirin at all except for a 81mg tab per diem for cardio purposes, yet he gives me oxycontin 20mg. 3 times a day. I must be junkie scum, eh?

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you? Just repeating the same tired trash from the "drug warriors". Why don't you educate yourself, if possible?

Why is it we Progressives can always find source materiel to support our positions, and the Regressives just babble and beat their chests? Such a mystery.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 5/8/2008 12:32:21 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 55

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 12:45:54 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

NOOOOOO!!!!! I have agreed with Hippie!! What is this world coming to?

Considering my background is chemistry, I have been a chronic pain patient for 9 years, all that time on opioids (said term including the synthetics and semi-synthetics (like oxycodone and diacetylmorphine), have done quite a bit of research not only on these meds but also nociception in general, moderate a chronic pain group, have a fair grasp of the politics of pain, and have gone to some lengths to separate fact from DEA propaganda , well, you decide. I can barely talk about what I know here because of the apparent confusion about discussions of public policy and the law, and "illegal activities".

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 56

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 12:47:20 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

I bet the Marines passed on the opium because it had PROPERTY OF THE C.I.A. stamped all over it.

Z.

One, Two, Three, Many Viet Nams, eh? hahahaha

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 57

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 12:48:20 AM

Asherdelampyr

Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Which kills more people, opium or aspirin?

Per capita of users? That would be opium/opiates, Hippie. Both are naturally occuring substances that relieve pain. Only one turns users into junkie-scum though.

You sure about that? I cannot find a source that breaks out DIRECT drug-related deaths. Direct would be overdose, since moderate use really doesn't do much. No liver damage, no brain damage, no nothing, really. Unlike the NSAIDs.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/causes.htm

I have not ever read about a plant containing aspirin.

My doctor doesn't want me to take aspirin at all except for a 81mg tab per diem for cardio purposes, yet he gives me oxycontin 20mg. 3 times a day. I must be junkie scum, eh?

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you? Just repeating the same tired trash from the "drug warriors". Why don't you educate yourself, if possible?

Why is it we Progressives can always find source materiel to support our positions, and the Regressives just babble and beat their chests? Such a mystery.

Here, the Source Of Asprin

Active ingredient comes from the willow...

for the record, whereas I dont give a shit what you put into your own body, and indeed think legalizing and taxing drugs could help the economy, I find the whole arguement of "It comes from nature, so it must be safe" to be absolutely retarded, lots of dangerous things come from nature... like cyanide...

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Post #: 58

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 12:59:43 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

It is the goose that lays golden eggs. The little bit of profit that the Taliban derives from it - a scarce one hundred million - is used to buy weapons from the USA and from USA allies. Most of the profit is made in the west, though. It is rather obvious that Afghanistan was invaded by the USA to protect that goose, in order to protect its own weapons trade and the huge profits (and tax revenue) made on the sales of drugs in the West.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 59

RE: Marines Ignore Opium Crops in Afghanistan - 5/8/2008 1:03:44 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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Yes, Asher, I know about salicylic acid. Aspirin was, like, my third or fourth experiment in 1st semester Organic. It's an ester made with salicylic acid and acetic anhydride. What other wonder drug was marketed by Bayer around the same time which was also made with acetic anhydride?

(in reply to Asherdelampyr)

Post #: 60

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