RE: Complete obedience = doormat?

RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (Full Version)

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Prinsexx -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/26/2008 3:15:35 PM)
I can only speak for myself....and so I wil do so and i hope this doesn't sound either arrogant or falsely humble. It is not intended as that. In my everyday, non-bdsms life, I am considered highly intelligent, a witty person, a high achiever and a good manager, a coper. I am also caring and a sincere friend. Many of these qualities both attract a D type initially but then these qualtities also threaten. I have been told this by friends who have observed me in relationship (albeit from outside of the dynamic) and by ex's who have remained as friends and been brave enough to tell me. What definitely doesn't work for me is to have that spirit knocked out of me because it makes the D type feel threatened. What does work is for him to experience the sincereuty of my submission, and to sense the degree to which this submission is such a different aspect to my everyday personna. That the D see the way in which I am willingly channelling my submissive enrgy, enabling him and giving him power and permission. A doormat does not confer power. Does this make any sense? Look: mia non culpa, I am empty handed, no threat whatsoever but certainly no doormat.

SleepyDom -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/26/2008 9:03:10 PM)
Even for someone that let others walk all over them, there's a difference between one that does so because she's too weak or desperate to speak up though she hates it and one that does so because it excites her, because she enjoys being walked all over. The former is indeed weak and will have to learn to stand up for what she wants for she surely would not be happy. She deserves pity, perhaps sympathy, for that character flaw. But the latter, there's no weakness, no character flaw, she's getting exactly what she wants. Belittling her doesn't even make any sense to me except, perhaps, out of jealousy, for how many of us can say we're getting exactly what we want?

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/26/2008 9:21:36 PM)
_FR_ I expect complete obedience. I also expect a personality, enough inteligence to pose an argument and enough respect to do so politely. I personally see a doormat (in the negative conotation it typically has) as someone who supresses who they are and alows someone else to run ramshackle over them whether or not it makes them happy. I need a sub who has enough backbone to stand up to me if they believe I am wrong, and enough balls to stand beside me if I am in a fight. I could never respect someone who couldnt stand up for what they believe or want... to me or anyone else. However, if someone enjoys being subjugated in that manner, it is totally different. They are not subjugating their own personality and interests to allow someone else to run wild. They are getting as much from the arrangement as they are giving. That is submissive, but not a doormat. That in and of itself is an expression of their personality. DV

slavegirljoy -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/26/2008 10:28:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SleepyDom "how can a Master want to train a sub to obey completely yet say they don't want a doormat?" I suppose the answer depends on the definition of a doormat, but I understand the gist of the question and here are my thoughts. I do want to train a sub to obey completely. I want her to submit to my will so completely, to trust me in all things, that obedience is just second nature to her. In my opinion, being well trained to obey completely doesn't require someone being a 'doormat'. In fact, just the opposite. It requires someone who can be trained to do all that is needed to satisfactorily complete the assigned tasks, no matter what those tasks might be, and be able and willing to actually complete those tasks. Being able to do that requires, in my view, someone who has: 1) the intelligence to comprehend what needs to be done and to retain what has been instructed, as well as 2) the determination to stick with it and follow through on tasks and 3) the passion for serving that makes it possible to do all that is required, with a peaceful heart and mind. Does that sound like someone who is a 'doormat'? Not to me, it doesn't. But, if it does to some people, then so be it. Call me a very happy and obedient doormat who is fulfilling a special purpose for a special person and getting a great deal of satisfaction from it. Call me a schmuck, if you want. That doesn't change the fact that i am very happy and content and satisfied with my life as the devoted and obedient servant to my Master. quote: So is a sub who is intelligent, allowed to use her intelligence and to express her opinions and preferences, a sub who can be funny, romantic, and allowed to be herself, a sub who is allowed, even encouraged, to discuss matters when necessary, is she a doormat? Not in my mind but, others might think so. Then again, some people have very different thoughts and opinions on a great many topics and that doesn't mean diddly-squat to how i choose to live my life with my Master. joy Owned servant of Master David

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/26/2008 11:13:03 PM)
I not this gonna come off sounding rather arrogant, actually the word pissy seems to fit really well at the moment, so I'll go with that. If a Master looks at his slave and see's a doormat, that's because that is all he has her for. If a Master looks at a his slave and see's a Precious Jewel, that's because he has used for something else besides a doormat. Man, I just wanna pull out that Magical Looney Toon Mallet. A TPE or high level submission D/s relationship, M/s, with slaves or doormats or whatever label you can attach to it, does not mean it's a 24/7 sadist abusing foot wiping, walks all over another person relationship. Just like the concept of a "vanilla" relationship, that alone can imply if it's Loving or Abusive relationship nor anything else about how a human being is treated in that relationship. I'm sorry (wait, no I'm not)... but whenever I read the words "Walks all over" that really kinda provokes some personal thoughts and feelings. Makes me want to sit in a chair in the middle of a room yelling one word out loud "Ingorance". Hell, I don't even have to use a complete sentence. Just simply yell out one word, should not be too hard to figure out. There's a difference between "Letting somebody walk all over you" as opposed to "devoting yourself to completely to serving another", and it means even more when there is geniune emotions involved. Damn, Damn, Damn, Great big nasty thought rats running around on the threads. Anyways, there is a certain Awe to it all. A little hard to put into words fully. M/s or high level D/s realationships can be totally done totally without any Sadistic or Masochistic elements, and without any kink. Wish I could encapsulate a few moments in time, just 20 seconds of out my life and be able to upload it into somebody else brain. They'd have full understanding without another word being spoken on this subject. Why do people seem to believe that the only way Authority or Power dynamics are build is through treating somebody like worthless shit? Come on! Time and Time again! The Words Trust come up! Trust! Doormats, and Walking all over them... and blah blah blah blah! I'm gonna hit myself over the head in disbelief with the Looney Toon Mallet now. OK, I'm done venting a little here.

pettingdragons -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/27/2008 8:03:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist I agree with you and I love my doormat so much I just went and took a picture of it for you! quote: what a great doormat!!! the design above and below the welcome letters is nicely done. [:D] Ok, admit it...how many people really went and looked at Sadists doormat? LOL pettingdragons Master Dragons considered slave

metalmiss -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/27/2008 8:38:50 AM)
i imagine the real "doormats" of this world must be far and few between as having been around a few years now and having spoken to a vast number of people i don't consider myself to have ever met one. It's a label which seems to be bounced around alot, it is something i have been called myself in the past, just for being attentive to my "D type"'s needs, and often by people who have either not thought things through properly, or those who are scared of the idea of it and what it might mean in relation to them. In my opinion a "doormat" would have to be a girl without a mind or the ability to think for herself, becoming such would involve giving up that ability.. When it occured to me once that a previous partner was slowly pushing me in that direction he didn't see me for dust.. It was a shock to me as it was something i had previously thought to be impossible & yet there i was, completely blank almost, where concious thought was concerned, except for when i was intructed.. i can't see why anybody would even desire something like that from a partner, surely if it was achieved life would be very dull for both parties? In my current relationship, i am completely obedient to my Master in all things, in all areas of my life. But thinking is encouraged, my opinion is valued and heard even though ultimately any decision is His to make. There are no sacred cows where discussion is concerned and i am actively encouraged to give my take on things always. i can't imagine our relationship without intelligent conversation, debating, flirting & banter. There would be no relationship, because thats what makes it tick from day to day. i know where the lines are and i don't cross them.. But anything else is fair game. My personality is the main focus of His attraction to me, and its something that cuts both ways. It is what draws us together. Obedient, attentive, caring slave.. Yes, always. Doormat.. Never!

metalmiss -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/27/2008 8:48:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SleepyDom Even for someone that let others walk all over them, there's a difference between one that does so because she's too weak or desperate to speak up though she hates it and one that does so because it excites her, because she enjoys being walked all over. The former is indeed weak and will have to learn to stand up for what she wants for she surely would not be happy. She deserves pity, perhaps sympathy, for that character flaw. But the latter, there's no weakness, no character flaw, she's getting exactly what she wants. Belittling her doesn't even make any sense to me except, perhaps, out of jealousy, for how many of us can say we're getting exactly what we want? If a person lets everybody walk all over her because she is weak.. Then i would pity her, she needs help to find strength. If a person lets just anybody walk all over her because it excites her.. It would strike me that she was lacking in the self worth department. That is her weakness, and for that i would consider her worse off than the first person in your example. But as with everything there is always some middle ground.. The only person that walks all over me is my Master, with my full knowledge and full consent, within His rules and His boundaries. If anybody else tried it they would be lucky to escape with their bollocks intact. Nevermind their pride. growls And yep.. In answer to your question.. i am.

chickpea -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/27/2008 9:07:28 AM)
Yes, doormats are subs that have no spirit and passively let the Dom control them out of weakness, not out of choice or proactive will. I think Doms that like this type and would feel their domness or manhood threatened by subs with spirit, and acting out the need to break the sub's will completely (where the Dom feels more of a dom or man having done so) will lead to an abusive relationship. Leading to the negative type of doormat complete obedience type of sub, a yawner for healthy doms into healthy relationships. If a sub is treasured, kept spirited and with a sense of self, and obeys completely out of her own will to obey completely, well that shows that complete obedience doesn't necessarily mean doormat. Maybe "Doormat" has to do more with personal investment and involvement in a relationship, and defending your interests? Like a person able to enter a healthy relationship would bring up his/her needs, and would involve themselves, rather than a Dom getting everything that he wants regardless of what you want initially entering the relationship and throughout the relationship. That'd be more of a true life slave where the person soon ends up this lifeless broken self with years wasted living his/her life..like those in real prisons where they have no choice whatsoever.

Aiden -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/27/2008 11:57:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave snipped The word Doormat is often used with a sort of strange assumption (unspoken) about the type of Dom or Master that so would desire one as a doormat. All the focus then is placed in debate regarding why would become a doormat. Basically, let's never fully trust a Dominant partner at all, because if we did, we'd become a Doormat. Geeeessshhh... Again, I feel this topic is more based on Fear compared to reality. It's a sort of defense mechanism argument to avoid getting mixed up with a Criminal minded Sadist evil Dom. You know the kind you really should not be trusting your life with. If you can trust somebody with your life, why not become a doormat? Would that not mean you were fully doing D/s as far as you could take it? What is wrong with TPE anyways? Clearly, the Doormat concept and fears are more centered around DOMs instead of submissives. It's just a misdirected a little. C'mon baby, give it all to me, you know you want to, need to, ought to. Step into my dark seduction. Thornz n roses. I have needs...bigtime..my south of the border bits and ego ache to have you this way. Be my special slave, my sweet little sin, give it all to me, stop holding back I want you all mine. Don't you want to pleeeze me. Yes. Mine, mine, mine, your will and body. Gotcha smirks Wait til I tell the fellers. A totally obedient slut. ..... Slut. How dare you even think about asking for anything, you and your creepy little mouse mannerisms, you're boring and sometimes convenient. Period. Bugger. The fuzzy springy stuff on mats gets worn down with use and you need a fresh one; who wants a used doormat. Apologies if the above flight of fancy offended anyone. It wasn't intended to, just a deliberately exaggerated rave on one(of many) aspects of the doormat topic. Reading the thread made me think of the old thing where guys who would use all means fair and foul to seduce a woman, then once she yeilded to them she became de-valued in their minds for doing what they'd been after her to do. "You've got to be kidding, I wouldn't marry you, you're a slut". Now letting the thread return to loftier regularly schedualed debate. aiden

ResidentSadist -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 2:18:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pettingdragons quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist I agree with you and I love my doormat so much I just went and took a picture of it for you! what a great doormat!!! the design above and below the welcome letters is nicely done. [:D] Ok, admit it...how many people really went and looked at Sadists doormat? LOL pettingdragons Master Dragons considered slave -=The Mystery Photo Shoot=- My neighbor came out while I was taking that photo. I’m out there with a sheet of paper and camera taking pics of my mat. The paper reflected the flash and whitewashed the writing so I had to take several shots to get a good angle. They just watched it all and looked sorta’ dumfounded. His girl came along and stopped on the walkway next to him so she could see what he was looking at. Now I have a small audience. I smiled and waved at the neighbors hoping they wouldn’t call the funny farm. I didn’t say hello or start a conversation because I figured explaining I was on the porch at night, adjusting lighting and camera angles so I could get a good picture of my mat to post on BDSM forum just wouldn’t help matters at all. I am sure whatever explanation they imagined for the mysterious photo shoot was far less incriminating than the truth.

RavenMuse -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 4:52:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: metalmiss In my current relationship, i am completely obedient to my Master in all things, in all areas of my life. But thinking is encouraged, my opinion is valued and heard even though ultimately any decision is His to make. There are no sacred cows where discussion is concerned and i am actively encouraged to give my take on things always. Ah this old chestnut again!... As My girl highlights she IS completely obedient (As much as any human being can be... she is human and sometimes slips but she strives for it). Where the hell do people equate that to doormat? If a parent visits their kids school and the headmaster tells them "your son is one of our most obedient students"... do they go home and berate the child for being a doormat? NO! Working within the set rules, adhering to guidlines and bounderies...striving to do what you are supposed to do, giving your best to any task... that is 'complete obedience'..... being a mindless drone, a 'doormat' doesn't come into it! Personaly I think it is just one more 'knee jerk' reaction from those with no understanding of higher level (of control) Dynamics.

TNstepsout -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 5:49:45 AM)
You know the doormat arguments comes from all the really ridiculous demands from wannabe Doms who don't have a clue. They expect a sub to be on demand at any time of day or night without considering the reality of job/family etc..., they do not take into consideration the possible legal ramifications of their demands, aren't safe, don't want to take the time to build trust and rapport before expecting total obedience and on and on and on. The ones that don't really have a clue what they are doing, but put up a profile with a Dom tag and start ordering people around.

pettingdragons -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 5:49:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist -=The Mystery Photo Shoot=- My neighbor came out while I was taking that photo. I’m out there with a sheet of paper and camera taking pics of my mat. The paper reflected the flash and whitewashed the writing so I had to take several shots to get a good angle. They just watched it all and looked sorta’ dumfounded. His girl came along and stopped on the walkway next to him so she could see what he was looking at. Now I have a small audience. I smiled and waved at the neighbors hoping they wouldn’t call the funny farm. I didn’t say hello or start a conversation because I figured explaining I was on the porch at night, adjusting lighting and camera angles so I could get a good picture of my mat to post on BDSM forum just wouldn’t help matters at all. I am sure whatever explanation they imagined for the mysterious photo shoot was far less incriminating than the truth. OMGS (oh my gods) that funny!! chokes and sputter on coffee What is funnier..the fact that you read the thread...ran out with lights and camera to take the picture ...or that your nieghbors came out and where watching....or what they where thinking?? LOL pettingdragons Master Dragons considered slave Well of COURSE Goldilocks was a Switch. If she'd have been a slave, when the bears came home they'd have found her still kneeling before the door, waiting for permission to enter.

pettingdragons -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 5:51:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout a Dom tags they have those? Can you get them at Wallie World (Walmart)??? pettingdragons Master Dragons considered slave May the life force of the squirrels protect your nuts in times of distress....

SleepyDom -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 9:19:15 AM)
I sincerely apologize RS for my thread being responsible for so much trouble taking pics of your doormat. You've surely gone beyond the call of duty for the sake of humor.

ResidentSadist -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 12:03:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SleepyDom I sincerely apologize RS for my thread being responsible for so much trouble taking pics of your doormat. You've surely gone beyond the call of duty for the sake of humor. Dear SleepyDom, No apology necessary. It was my pleasure to assemble photographic evidence in support of the often unpopular opinion that doormats are sacred things to cherish. I think your thread is sincere, noble and righteous. It was well worth causing a little mystery in my neighbor’s lives with a midnight photo shoot. Sincerely, Kalon Eric

SleepyDom -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 12:10:40 PM)
Hahaha, sincere yes, I don't know about noble and righteous. I was expecting some naked pic of your sub at your feet or something--but the literal doormat was funny.

softness -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 12:17:08 PM)
so ... how about those of us who actually do want to be/wish to own "doormats" ...not all the time .. but some of the time Sir said last night ... "Yanno kiddo .. you really are quite the doormat ... not all the time mind you .. but you are.. and thats just great .. because sometimes all I want is to have something to wipe my feet on when I get home" It makes me very happy to be "doormatty" some of the time .. and it please Him also ... just do what works ... it's not rocket science

SleepyDom -> RE: Complete obedience = doormat? (5/28/2008 12:37:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness so ... how about those of us who actually do want to be/wish to own "doormats" ...not all the time .. but some of the time You guys are screwed. [;)] Mark my words; one day you'll see that I'm right. "Sir said last night ... "Yanno kiddo .. you really are quite the doormat ... not all the time mind you .. but you are.. and thats just great .. because sometimes all I want is to have something to wipe my feet on when I get home" Ya I can tell, softness, you might want to wipe that dirt off your head.

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