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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 7:46:55 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Unless you happen to live on a continent where there's little rain. Then, good luck with the 'green pastures' and 'horse manure'. Try and move away from the civil wars and massacres funded by arms manufacturers and other mafia, the theft of natural resources by Shell, De Beers and assorted mining companies and Gangsters & Co., the exploitation of agricultural land to produce cheap stuff for the international market at the expense of feeding the very people that work the land...  Meritocracy is a very pretty concept. In the fable books.

 

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 7:55:49 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		The only real problem I have with that post is the diamonds issue.
 
Diamonds have value because the west places value on them. So the fair price for a diamond is that which someone will pay. Maybe you could cut out the middleman in that process but that could be the same for a lot of things.
 
There is nothing especially useful about a diamond unless it is an industrial one.


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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 7:57:38 AM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
The phrase says "created" equal.  That means that, starting out, you have a chance. 


Does the man who is born blind or without limbs have the same chance? Some are at a disadvantage before they are even born.


    Honestly, and through experience, Yes.  it has a great deal to do with those around them, and how well they will care for and about that person, and chance. It is better now than it was 20 years ago, and was better then than it was 100 years ago, but so are most things.  It is beyond my comfort level to share the details here, but the answer is an educated and resounding Yes.

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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:01:54 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Nothing has intrinsic value except that which we are willing to place upon it. Diamonds are valuable because people are willing to pay hugely inflated prices for them.

I mean, you know what happened in Sierra Leone... De Beers recanted, eventually, but the results were beyond atrocious.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:16:02 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Too true I suppose.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:24:19 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
The phrase says "created" equal.  That means that, starting out, you have a chance. 


Does the man who is born blind or without limbs have the same chance? Some are at a disadvantage before they are even born.


   Honestly, and through experience, Yes.  it has a great deal to do with those around them, and how well they will care for and about that person, and chance. It is better now than it was 20 years ago, and was better then than it was 100 years ago, but so are most things.  It is beyond my comfort level to share the details here, but the answer is an educated and resounding Yes.


Over the years I have followed the story of a local boy who was born the same day as my oldest son. He was born with Spina Bifida. He is severely mentally retarded and can not speak or walk. The paper runs stories on him from time to time whenever there is a fundraiser to help with his many surgeries and care. I can't speak for him but I would have to think that if I asked him or his mother if they felt he was born with an equal chance....they would likely disagree with your resounding yes.

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There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:24:33 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What do you think was the intended meaning of the phrase? Do you think that all men really are equal? And in what respect?


It may be a rejection to the idea of monachy etc, but it is nothing more than a pointless phrase to get people to conform.  It isn't true, it would be totally boring if it was and destroys the individual.  And it sucks.
 
the.dark.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:26:28 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

In an ideal world all are created equal and therefore are equal.


If that were true A, that would be my idea of hell.  And I reject it TOTALLY.  SO much so, it makes me feel nauseous thinking about such a prospect.
 
the.dark.
 
 

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:31:58 AM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Unless you happen to live on a continent where there's little rain. Then, good luck with the 'green pastures' and 'horse manure'. Try and move away from the civil wars and massacres funded by arms manufacturers and other mafia, the theft of natural resources by Shell, De Beers and assorted mining companies and Gangsters & Co., the exploitation of agricultural land to produce cheap stuff for the international market at the expense of feeding the very people that work the land...  Meritocracy is a very pretty concept. In the fable books.

 


At times it becomes necessary to take steps, no matter how painful they might be, to improve one's own situation.  sometimes one has to move when the first brick falls to keep from getting buried.  does it really matter more to figure out who is throwing the bricks, or to get out from under the brick pile?  All men are created equal means that they each have their own personal responsibility to survive.  It can be scary to make that first move, and if  it is not made, then removing someone from a situation which i might view as bad, would be kidnapping to others, or slave trading, or empire building.

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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:38:59 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What do you think was the intended meaning of the phrase? Do you think that all men really are equal? And in what respect?

I believe the intended meaning was equality before the law.
I do not believe that all people are equal or should be equal in any other respect.
I do believe people should be equal before the law, but I also realize this is rarely the case.
I have at times been given pause to wonder if people should even be equal before the law... and while I've yet to embrace that notion, there have been instances where it seemed plausible.

Three years ago I wrote an entire essay on this topic.  It can be found here...
Are We Equal?

< Message edited by Padriag -- 5/31/2008 9:18:53 AM >

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 8:50:39 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Is this what we are talking about?

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Why are you talking about babies with no arms? That has nothing to do with the wording or the meaning. That no arm baby has the same rights as the rich baby born with the silver spoon...under the constitution and law.

As the Declaration clearly states….The above truth is self-evident! …and so is the meaning.

Butch

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:00:13 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
The phrase says "created" equal.  That means that, starting out, you have a chance. 


Does the man who is born blind or without limbs have the same chance? Some are at a disadvantage before they are even born.


  Honestly, and through experience, Yes.  it has a great deal to do with those around them, and how well they will care for and about that person, and chance. It is better now than it was 20 years ago, and was better then than it was 100 years ago, but so are most things.  It is beyond my comfort level to share the details here, but the answer is an educated and resounding Yes.


Over the years I have followed the story of a local boy who was born the same day as my oldest son. He was born with Spina Bifida. He is severely mentally retarded and can not speak or walk. The paper runs stories on him from time to time whenever there is a fundraiser to help with his many surgeries and care. I can't speak for him but I would have to think that if I asked him or his mother if they felt he was born with an equal chance....they would likely disagree with your resounding yes.


    Or they might share my resounding Yes for the same reasons i do.  Some days it depends on the day of the week, or how many people have stared in horror at their young one.
      In today's world, i will guess that their child is not institutionalized, and will probably survive longer than the doctors predicted.  The choice that one has here is that you can count your blessings or curse your fate.  Some days it depends on the day of the week, but honestly, every day is a blessing and no day is a promise.  if everybody woke up today, then it is a good day. 
      My  best wishes and kindest thoughts to this local young man.  Those around him and who care for him and keep him in the public eye are to be commended, although they would probably shy away from that praise.  His "equality" might stem from having those around him who care.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:11:11 AM   
Aneirin


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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

In an ideal world all are created equal and therefore are equal. We have created a far from ideal world.

If in various poorer parts of the world, one has to ask, why are people suffering so, surely throughout their nation's history they did not always suffer so, there has to be a reason.

Be that reason as in the case of lands once fertile and forrested, why is it now infertile and largely unforrested, was it the greed of others that depleted the land ?



i have a degree of sympathy with this, however, what keeps them from seeking more fertile areas, or restoring their current lands to its prior pristine state?  i do realize that there are matters of social and economic limitations.  Lemmings will run off a cliff together, but a horse will try to flee a burning barn.


Well, I would suppose in areas where there is a dense population, wandering to more fertile lands may cause overpopulation and therefore strife.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:21:41 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
i have a degree of sympathy with this, however, what keeps them from seeking more fertile areas, or restoring their current lands to its prior pristine state?  i do realize that there are matters of social and economic limitations.  Lemmings will run off a cliff together, but a horse will try to flee a burning barn.


Lemmings only migrate together, they don't commit suicide - which is a myth perpetuated by disney.  Back to the regular schedule!
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:26:26 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		Do you mean that You wouldn't offer them an acre or two in your back yard?  Or let them know where a better life was available?  Don't you feel selfish that you would not share your bounty with them?  Or do you prefer the nicely priced imports?  or is it simply that no one has yet asked you?

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:30:13 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
i have a degree of sympathy with this, however, what keeps them from seeking more fertile areas, or restoring their current lands to its prior pristine state?  i do realize that there are matters of social and economic limitations.  Lemmings will run off a cliff together, but a horse will try to flee a burning barn.


Lemmings only migrate together, they don't commit suicide - which is a myth perpetuated by disney.  Back to the regular schedule!
 
the.dark.

 
i did not see disney's name on the sociology book, not even a reference.  i think Malthus was prior to disney anyway, but i could be wrong.  Do i need to sue Disney, Brown publishng, or my sociology teacher?  i want a refund.  Not money, just the last 30 years of ignorance. 

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:35:28 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		It came well before Disney, but they are the ones that threw the lemmings off the cliffs by hand (well, turntable) to make the 'myth' look real.
And they do not come from the sky either.
 
Lemmings actually do what you suggest, they migrate when their populations becomes too dense to be sustained by their surroundings.  They will not cease until they find new ground, diving off cliffs to swim, some dying when they hit the sea or drowning - some accidently pushed off when too many hit the same edge.  But they are not commiting suicide, rather, trying to survive.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 5/31/2008 9:54:56 AM >

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:39:47 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Do you mean that You wouldn't offer them an acre or two in your back yard?  Or let them know where a better life was available?  Don't you feel selfish that you would not share your bounty with them?  Or do you prefer the nicely priced imports?  or is it simply that no one has yet asked you?


Sometimes there is no other place for large amounts of people to go, but others can help in what ways are necessary and practical. I sponsored a Kenyan girl for education and health care, with that I am fully prepared to act as sponsor for that young woman to come to this country to pursue her desire to learn nursing, perhaps something small, but practical and will be of benefit to poorer nations.




_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:42:58 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Is this what we are talking about?


Nope. We are talking about how we feel about the equality of man....and there is a whole big world out there that our Constitution doesn't cover. What I am looking for are you personal thoughts on whether or not all men are indeed equal.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 9:50:24 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		In the context of the Declaration of Independance "all men are created equal" was an obvious slap at the monarchy of King George.
And, a rejection of that monarchy by the Colonists in the "New World."
Are "all men created equal?" In the U.S. is probably the closest you'll get to that ideal.
I'd say no.
Probably the most important thing that needs to exist to meet this "ideal" of "all men are created equal" is the "Rule of Law."
Countries that don't have the Rule of Law are basically, screwed.
And it's not our job to give them the rule of law.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/31/2008 10:06:40 AM >

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