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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 9:04:21 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Equal does mean identical... look it up. 



I'm not convinced, Padraig.

I'd offer that equal, in this context, means you have something of value to offer society, and, as values are subjective, it makes sense to assume all men are created equal.

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 9:04:21 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Equal treatment is when you give equal opportunity to develop a person's unique talents so he/she can become as useful to society as is possible.


Fair enough. Except the oppurtunity is rarely ever equal. People get denied oppurtunity all the time by companies and organizations in their search for the best possible candidate to fill the position.

The big, strong, buff guys get picked for the football team and the smaller, more agile ones get picked for track.



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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 9:06:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		General point.

Thomas Paine's quote was good propaganda which is why it was taken up by the rebels. I doubt for one minute the founding fathers really believed such a thing or if they did, they would have created a political system with universal sufferage. They created a political system that was in many ways more reactionary than the British. At the time of the revolution slavery had been illegal in Britain for about 500 years (though not in the empire) and sufferage was wider than it would be in the new USA.

It was a good sound bite and it was rebels in the colonies that invented the political soundbite that we recognize today. The leaders of the revolution realized catchy phrases got their message across very quickly and disposed of the need to explain inconvenient truths. It was like 'no taxation without representation', 99% of the colonists never paid tax so you really would think such a policy would have no concern to them but of course, it sounds good and it was little concern to them also because 90% of them wouldn't have no represesntation after the revolution either.

They strange thing is, such soundbites have entered the American psyche (and sadly penetrated the rest of the western world) and have never been truely questioned, probably because the political establishment don't want them questioned, in case the ordinary citizenship realize they have been short changed. They want ordinary citizens to feel they are free and free from the burden of tax but the true object is for the ordinary citizens not to question the political elite and the rich and their over representation through bought influence and their lack of contribution to the state through the practical reality of the need for taxation.

In conclusion 'All men are created equal' is just a vacuous phrase. It's glib liberalism that is never acted upon. People don't even have an equal birthright in so called free societies because power is purchased with money. And before people say you can work your way to the top in a free society because you are intrinsically equal (aka The American Dream), such a thing is possible in dictatorships, oligarchies and just about any other political system you care to name.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/1/2008 9:14:42 AM >

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 9:07:20 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I'd offer that equal, in this context, means you have something of value to offer society, and, as values are subjective, it makes sense to assume all men are created equal.


I would offer that the subjective, contextual nature of value means it's impossible to determine whether one man is "better" than another man, but the fact that different men offer different values in different situations is still a testament to inequality.

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 9:20:54 AM   
Padriag


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Status: offline 		I don't see it as splitting hairs at all... I think the difference is at the very crux of the matter.

To state on the one hand that all are equal before the law, or that all men are born of the same rights (essentially the same thing), is to say that they are all to be treated identically by the law, treated the same.

My point is that when you remove that specific context... of before the law... and broaden it to society, people, life, the universe and everything... it ceases to be a valid statement.  We are not all equal, we are all different.  The two are mutually exclusive.

A society can decide, can choose, to make laws irrespective of those differences, to weigh its citizens in that legal balance irrespective of who they are and all that may be unique or different about them.  But... we as individuals rarely do so, and Nature never does so.  Equality is an artificial and legal construct... not a natural one.  Which raises another interesting question.  These right which are claimed to be inalienable, or god given, or birth rights... are no such thing at all... they are given by society who can also take them away... as we have seen throughout history.

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 9:33:24 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I'd offer that equal, in this context, means you have something of value to offer society, and, as values are subjective, it makes sense to assume all men are created equal.

One would hope I have something of value to offer society.

But seriously, what you are saying is that because social values are subjective, and logically it is therefore impossible to acertain an absolute or objective value (on this I agree), that we should assume an equal value.  I disagree... I'd say its more sensible to assume that we have an unknown, perhaps unfixed, variable value... which still means we aren't equal even if we can't precisely determine the difference in value.

I can see how just assuming equality and ignoring the inequality would be easier.

I'm also not convinced that we can't determine some objective values.  For example, can we not honestly say that someone who has done a great deal to contribute to society, to benefit others has done more of value than someone who had done nothing to benefit anyone?  Are they not therefore of greater value because of these things they have done?

This is another sticking point I encounter.  We live in a world that says we're supposed to do things to benefit others, to contribute to society... yet we also tell people that despite what they do and no matter how much they do... they're still only equal to the drunken bum who does nothing... that despite thier efforts, they have not gained any value.  We say this... but we do not behave like this.  We say all are equal, but our behavior constantly betrays a different valuation.

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 9:37:47 AM   
Kalista07


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Status: offline 		Mist,
Thanks for posting this, it has elicited a great deal of thought this morning... i read the whole thread and became confused about what exactly 'equal' does mean. So, i looked it up, acorrding to dictionary.com it means:  1.as great as; the same as (often fol. by to or with): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light. 2.like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance. 3.evenly proportioned or balanced: an equal contest. 4.uniform in operation or effect: equal laws. 5.adequate or sufficient in quantity or degree: The supply is equal to the demand. 6.having adequate powers, ability, or means: He was equal to the task. 7.level, as a plain. 8.tranquil or undisturbed: to confront death with an equal mind. 9.impartial or equitable. –noun 10.a person or thing that is equal. –verb (used with object) 11.to be or become equal to; meet or match: So far the rate of production doesn't equal the demand. If A equals B and B equals C, then A equals C. 12.to make or do something equal to: No matter how he tries, he can't equal his brother's achievements. 13.Archaic. to make equal; equalize. 14.Obsolete. to recompense fully.
Sorry, if that makes this too literal for some people, but i guess that's just the way i am....Now what do i think it means? Honestly? i think it's part of the propoganda that is created to make people think and feel like we are all one big happy country... First of all, there are thousands (if not millions) of people who don't believe men are, in fact, created. Secondly, i have some issues with this.... At what point does the equality exist? After birth? Well, no we can all give examples of people who are not born with the same capacity physically as others are. During pregnancy? Well, again, no what about the babies who are exposed to drugs or alcohol?   Sadly, as i've thought about this, i can't even maintain the belief that under the 'eyes of the law' people have the same basic rights..... Because if that were true, we would not  have so many cases of peoples basic rights being trashed by 'homeland security', we would not have to worry about profiling, people would be entitle to and receive the exact level and capacity of attorney that they were up against.
i just don't think it's realistic, honestly...But, then again, i suppose this is not really an issue for me to concern myself with since i'm not a man.... (just kidding)
Kali

< Message edited by Kalista07 -- 6/1/2008 9:38:26 AM >

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 10:05:15 AM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		To the first part of the OP,  the question of what Thomas Jefferson thought it meant when he wrote it was, as mentioned, the refutation of the divine right of kings to be born to rule 'commoners'. 

To the other parts, of course no one is born exactly equal to everyone else in a literal sense.  

And it is, and always has been the nature of man, animal and societies to follow a pecking order with people filling roles based on power over others.

The fact is that even during the process of forming the American nation, there were plenty of people who wanted to be subjects, or to subjugate others, and it is a tribute to Jefferson et al. that it has taken this long for America to start having royal families fighting over the throne again.


Anyone want to bet that political strategists somewhere haven't already seriously put forth the notion of intermarrying between the Bushes, Gores, Clintons, Kennedys etc., in order to continue the ruling blood line? 

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 10:30:27 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

This is another sticking point I encounter.  We live in a world that says we're supposed to do things to benefit others, to contribute to society... yet we also tell people that despite what they do and no matter how much they do... they're still only equal to the drunken bum who does nothing... that despite thier efforts, they have not gained any value.  We say this... but we do not behave like this.  We say all are equal, but our behavior constantly betrays a different valuation.


You made the point of what I am getting at a lot better than I have.

We want people to strive to be stronger, smarter, and of more value, but when they achieve these things, we don't want them to bestow them with a label of having more value than the people who havent achieved these things.

Because that might offend someone and therefore doesn't mess with politically correct liberalism.

Both our noble American ideals, but both are unfortanely in conflict with one another. We want people to be smart and strong...just without being smarter and stronger than anyone else.

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 10:41:10 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I can see how just assuming equality and ignoring the inequality would be easier.



I'd argue the opposite. At face value, it's easy on the mind to assume a lawyer brings more to the table than a drunk, because success in the work place is that which we value in society.

The point is, however, we don't have a handle on what exactly constitutes human nature; it follows thus we can't assume certain qualities/characteristics are superior by definition.

Who is more useful to human development? The person who conforms to the work ethic and follows the flock, or the person who opts out of society and ploughs an alternative furrow? It's not as cut and dried as it may appear at first light.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

We live in a world that says we're supposed to do things to benefit others, to contribute to society... yet we also tell people that despite what they do and no matter how much they do... they're still only equal to the drunken bum who does nothing... that despite thier efforts, they have not gained any value.  We say this... but we do not behave like this.  We say all are equal, but our behavior constantly betrays a different valuation.



We behave and are judged according to those values imposed upon us; this doesn't render those values superior in any way, shape or form. They're the values of the day, usually a response to chaos and instability and aimed at establishing a peaceful co-existence - ultimately though, they remain the values derived from opinion.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 12:40:10 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

We live in a world that says we're supposed to do things to benefit others, to contribute to society... yet we also tell people that despite what they do and no matter how much they do... they're still only equal to the drunken bum who does nothing... that despite thier efforts, they have not gained any value.  We say this... but we do not behave like this.  We say all are equal, but our behavior constantly betrays a different valuation.


I haven't noticed many people doing things to benefit others without expecting some reward for themselves. Cooperation is the nature of human society but I do accept some take more than they give and others take less than they give but I suspect this is down to education and power. Percentage wise, the rich always give a smaller share of their wealth to charity than the poor and consume a much greater share of the resources than the poor. A capitalist would say this is the nature of things while espousing the nonsense 'all men are created equal', yep, he'll say it without laughing.

As for the drunken bum, my guess he sees the true nature of human society and life for what it is. Once you take of the rose tinted spectacles and analyse the nonsense that is human society, you need some substance to escape it.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: All men are created equal - 6/1/2008 7:35:28 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"Equal" doesn't mean "identical".


Rephrase: Of course it does, that is why a cup of sugar and a cup of flour are not equal.

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 6/1/2008 7:42:39 PM >

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