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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 10:04:05 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What do you think was the intended meaning of the phrase? Do you think that all men really are equal? And in what respect?

The phrase that follows it in the Declaration of Independence explains it quite succinctly: "That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

Men are not born noble or commoner, was the custom of European society of the time, nor can a man assume the leadership of a nation merely by virtue of his birth. For many, in the culture of the time and even afterwards, there was a difference of opinion about who was contained in the word "Men" (even Abraham Lincoln believed black people were inferior--his solution to the question of slavery was to free the slaves and ship every last one of them back to Africa from whence they came), but IF you were a "Man," you were born with the same rights as any other "Man."

Viewed in a modern light, the phrase means that, regardless of whether one is born rich or poor, whether one is white or black or Asian, whether one is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Jew, each of us is born with the same basic desires and ambitions: to be happy, to lead a fulfilling life, to have friends and not enemies, to receive love and not hatred. The phrase means that we are all imperfect yet perfectable.

People do not, overall, treat their fellows equally. However, that is testamant to man's imperfection, not proof men are created unequal.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 10:26:16 AM

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 10:30:03 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What do you think was the intended meaning of the phrase? Do you think that all men really are equal? And in what respect?

The phrase that follows it in the Declaration of Independence explains it quite succinctly: "That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

Men are not born noble or commoner, was the custom of European society of the time, nor can a man assume the leadership of a nation merely by virtue of his birth. For many, in the culture of the time and even afterwards, there was a difference of opinion about who was contained in the word "Men" (even Abraham Lincoln believed black people were inferior--his solution to the question of slavery was to free the slaves and ship every last one of them back to Africa from whence they came), but IF you were a "Man," you were born with the same rights as any other "Man."

Viewed in a modern light, the phrase means that, regardless of whether one is born rich or poor, whether one is white or black or Asian, whether one is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Jew, each of us is born with the same basic desires and ambitions: to be happy, to lead a fulfilling life, to have friends and not enemies, to receive love and not hatred. The phrase means that we are all imperfect yet perfectable.

People do not, overall, treat their fellows equally. However, that is testamant to man's imperfection, not proof men are created unequal.

CelticLord, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 10:42:56 AM

FullCircle

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Should have been they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights such as the right to make up silly words like unalienable.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 10:51:38 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What do you think was the intended meaning of the phrase? Do you think that all men really are equal? And in what respect?

All are created with purpose.

All purposes are equally important.

Similar to the idea, every player on a team has a job, though not the same job, to ensure success of the team.

Not sure what was intended, but what happened looks a lot like fubar.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 1:08:02 PM

atursvcMaam

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The Declaration was an explanation of how life should be as an ideal. The constitution was, and is a vehicle to make that happen.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 1:17:43 PM

atursvcMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Do you mean that You wouldn't offer them an acre or two in your back yard? Or let them know where a better life was available? Don't you feel selfish that you would not share your bounty with them? Or do you prefer the nicely priced imports? or is it simply that no one has yet asked you?

Sometimes there is no other place for large amounts of people to go, but others can help in what ways are necessary and practical. I sponsored a Kenyan girl for education and health care, with that I am fully prepared to act as sponsor for that young woman to come to this country to pursue her desire to learn nursing, perhaps something small, but practical and will be of benefit to poorer nations.

Superb. All i am saying is that she has to make the choice to pursue that path, and your offer. Otherwise you are changing who it is that is controlling her destiny.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 1:56:25 PM

Vendaval

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My interpretation is that all men are equal in the legal and judicial system. I believe this is a great concept that does not always apply in our current economic system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What do you think was the intended meaning of the phrase? Do you think that all men really are equal? And in what respect?

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:02:17 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What do you think was the intended meaning of the phrase? Do you think that all men really are equal? And in what respect?

It was a specific refutation of the 'Divine right of Kings'

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:10:31 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

It was a specific refutation of the 'Divine right of Kings'

The thing that confuses me about that; why are they the same group we get to “choose” from now?

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:14:28 PM

Alumbrado

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How do we think a bunch of inbred Hapsburgs got to be monarchs in the first place? Sheeple.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:19:24 PM

wulfgarw

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Man(kind) was created (or evolved), but Samuel Colt made them equal.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:26:09 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

How do we think a bunch of inbred Hapsburgs got to be monarchs in the first place? Sheeple.

I had this same thought, but then I realized, it is not the ones who follow that are to blame; following is what they do. It is the ones who could lead but refuse, or whatever their problem is.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:29:09 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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all women are created EVIL

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:40:13 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

all women are created EVIL

That's why I'm a girl. (No, not girly.)

Adding; not to imply I am not feminine.

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/31/2008 2:54:44 PM >

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 2:42:22 PM

faerytattoodgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

all women are created EVIL

That's why I'm a girl. (No, not girly.)

not girly? oh well ..i wont hit on you then.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 3:29:39 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

People do not, overall, treat their fellows equally. However, that is testamant to man's imperfection, not proof men are created unequal.

I don't quite agree with that. I think there is proof everywhere that men are NOT created equal.

Here's an overly simplistic example of the concept in practice. I'm at a grocery store and there is an item located on the top shelf that I can't reach. There is two people near me. One is taller than me, the other is shorter than me. I am willing to pay one of them $5 dollars to reach the item for me. Which one do you think I am going to present the business opportunity to?

I am giving the tall person a particular degree of "treatment" and an opportunity that I am not giving to the short people based on inequality between them. The short man is physically incapable of doing the job without the assistance of a ladder or stool. If I have to get a ladder or stool, then I am going to do the job myself. The tall person is physically capable of doing the job without the use of the ladder and therefore provides a benefit to me worth $5 dollars.

I am not going to give a short person who can't reach something on a shelf the same equal treatment that I am going to give a tall person who can.

I am not going to give someone who is not strong enough to lift 200lbs the same equal treatment as someone who is.

I am going to give someone who does not have extraordinary talent with a violin the same equal treatment as someone who does.

Equal treatment implies that I am going to treat both individuals as they can and are capable of fulfilling the tasks in question, but they can't.

I don't agree that we are all perfectible, because in our inequality, we all have different limits that we cannot exceed beyond, physically and mentally.

Some people will be stronger, smarter, faster, and better looking than other people will be weaker, dumber, slower, and uglier than them. Some people are meant to play violins, some people are meant to build houses. Some people are meant to lead, some people are meant to follow.

I don't think we have a natural right to decide for other people what they are destined to do and are not destined to do, so I agree with the ideal. But I see it as just that...an ideal and not anything close to the reality we live in. We treat people differently and that behavior is not an imperfect of man, but a necessary behavior because men are, in fact, imperfect and unequal.

The other reason I consider this to be purely a metaphysical ideal and not an objective reality is that while we may not have the natural or divine right to determine what people may or may not do, we acquire the right in a capitalistic society when we own a company or are granted authority in a company to decide who may or who may not do certain jobs.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 3:59:43 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

I don't quite agree with that. I think there is proof everywhere that men are NOT created equal.

I think Shylock can rebut your example better than I:

quote:

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

The short person and the tall person are still persons. That one is more suited to a particular task does not diminish the other person, nor should it.

That each person is endowed with individual skills, talents, and attributes does not alter the reality that each is a human being at his or her core. Each of us has the same challenge of daily living--how to get through this day. Each of us needs food, drink, and a warm bed at night. Our desires for happiness, for peace, for prosperity are universal.

We are all unique. We are all different. Yet we are all still human. Thus we are all still equal.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 5:00:18 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

We are all unique. We are all different. Yet we are all still human. Thus we are all still equal.

I disagree... we're all human (at least I think we are... I do wonder about a few of you... not pointing fingers or naming names... but there are some really ODD individuals out there...... but I digress), I do not see that as being the same as being equal.

Being human is a state of being, its your species. Simple enough.
Being equal is a state of value, it requires a valuation.

What you propose is that just being born makes everyone of equal worth. But what then of personal achievement? What of individual contributions to society? Do you propose that someone who say... finds a cure to a major disease, a serial killer and someone who while never doing anything bad never really does anything at all... are all of equal value? If so... why should anyone bother achieving anything, after all, we're all equal so doesn't matter in the least if I've done nothing with my life... I'm still equal to Mr Wonderful over there an the gals are all gonna have a tough choice between us.

No... I do not think in practice any of us values everyone equally.

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RE: All men are created equal - 5/31/2008 5:01:13 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

We are all unique. We are all different. Yet we are all still human. Thus we are all still equal.

And I think that is a really great ideal, but still bares no resemblance to the reality of the world we live in. I'm afraid I don't see any rebuttal to my arguments, but a repeatance of the same thing you said before.

We might need the same food, drink, and bed, but the quality and kind of food, drink, and bed we get and have is not equal. We might all desire happiness and prosperity, but it's not a given in America. We have to go out and earn it and whether we get it or not is based off how much stronger, smarter, and faster we are then the other people competing for it.

The Greeks had it right in my opinion. Some men are born to be slaves and some men are born to be Masters and that's reality. We might create an ideal to base a "free society" off of, but the world still is what it is. This is why we have an upper, middle, and lower class. It's why you aren't going to treat and talk to a mentally handicapped bagger at Wal Mart the same way you are going to treat and talk to a super genius at IBM. It's why buisnesses fail, men sleep under bridges, starve to death, and are miserable.

Edited to Add : We can't realistically practice the values of "all men are equal". Affirmative Action is a great example. This is a program that was started under that ideal and propelled black men to higher positions in companies to try and bring black people to a more equal footing in society. As a result, people who were not qualified or capable of doing the jobs were given the jobs simply because they were black. And they failed at those jobs.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 5/31/2008 5:04:08 PM >

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