RE: Racism

RE: Racism (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 3:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 I'm white. American by birth, Texan by choice, Highlander by the grace of God! And I don't owe any black person any apology, reparation, remuneration, or the time of day for any damn thing. I have never owned a black slave, nor do I wish to own a black slave. I am guilty of a great many things, but bigotry is not one of them. Nor will I ever accept the specious, irrational, and basically asinine proposition that I bear a measure of responsibility for what others with white skin did over a century ago. The idea that I should bear such burden is morally bankrupt, racially divisive, and completely, utterly, irredeemably wrong. Agreed. Well, except for that whole Highlander thing. [:D]

lally3 -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 4:08:33 PM)
a few years ago now, i was living in hong kong and a guy (black american) was a neighbour in our block and we were sitting on the ferry over to HK. there was alot on the news at the time about the KKK marching through the streets demonstrating. the thing i noticed most was how the streets were lined with white people hurling abuse at the KKK, and in the background the guys who i thought should have been lining the street hurling abuse ie., the black americans were doing their shopping and not paying much attention atall to the KKK. so i asked this guy why that was and he said. theyre impotent, they cant touch us anymore, theyre no threat anymore - responding to them is a waste of energy. what interested me most about this was how the whites were so very angry and the blacks couldnt have given less of a shit, or atleast thats how they showed it. all of the western world is multicultural and so scared of the R word they trip over themselves and tie themselves up into so many knots not to be thought to be, heard to be, or in any way associated with the R word that the R word is up there with holocaust as something you utter with extreme care and sensitivity. and yet when absolute racism from the KKK marches up a street its the whites not the blacks that hate them and hurl abuse and want to be seen hating them and hurling abuse. it was while i was in HK that the Tieneman square incident happened. every british expat in HK believed they were going to be picked up and hurled into the harbour because maggie thatcher wouldnt provide sanctuary to the HK chinese. but nothing happened to the british expats. just plaques went up remembering the appalling things the japanese did to them during the second world war. memories seem to get dragged back and back long after they are valid. i meet men who fought in the second world war who absolutely hate all germans - i think what im trying to say is that racism of any sort is endemic throughout society and i dont believe we will ever stamp it out completely, at least not until its all such a long long time ago anyone with a memory is dead. if we owe anyone an apology for racial hatred and discrimination its the kids. each and every generation creates yet another boiling pot of hatred that adds further fuel to an already chronic fire. muslim hatred against the western world is something my son will have to deal with and i deeply and profoundly resent it.

DomAviator -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 8:27:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally3 there was alot on the news at the time about the KKK marching through the streets demonstrating. the thing i noticed most was how the streets were lined with white people hurling abuse at the KKK, and in the background the guys who i thought should have been lining the street hurling abuse ie., the black americans were doing their shopping and not paying much attention atall to the KKK. so i asked this guy why that was and he said. theyre impotent, they cant touch us anymore, theyre no threat anymore - responding to them is a waste of energy. what interested me most about this was how the whites were so very angry and the blacks couldnt have given less of a shit, or atleast thats how they showed it. In some parts of the country that is true... In other parts the KKK is far from impotent and underestimating them could be a potentially fatal error. For example, the KKK is alive and well in Jasper Texas and a bunch of them left pieces of a black man spread out over several miles of roadway when they dragged him to death behind a pickup truck for no reason except wrong place wrong time... In Vidor Texas a black man had best not be there when the sun goes down and the sole holdout in President Clintons (note I said Clinton not Johnson!) failed attempt at integration was shot dead 11 hours after he left town. In either Conroe / Spring / or The Woodlands Texas (I can never tell whats what up there) a teenage hispanic kid was buttfucked with a patio unbrella in front of dozens of classmates and parents for asking out a white girl. The teenagers involved were Klan. There are still a lot of sunset towns in the American South and underestimating the Klan there can get someone hurt or killed fast....

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 8:34:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub Do i owe A/anyone an apology? Restitution? Affirmative action? IMHO, the answer to all these questions is 'yes', but i recognise that reasonable P/pl can differ on these questions. Personally, I disagree with you 100% in your every premis, Pink. I've never owned slaves (of a non consensual nature) and therefore I own nothing to Anyone based on such. There are no people alive today - of ANY race in this country - who can honestly say that THEY PERSONALLY suffered from racial slavery. Period. Those who were held as slaves are all dead. The people who owned those slaves are dead. The issue of Restitution - owing someone something for what happened to them - died when the last person that was actually a slave died. I refuse to be held accountable for what my 6 times removed great grandfather may or may not have done - and I'm sure as fuck not gonna answer for his possible crimes to the 6 or 7 times removed great grandchild of the person he might have wronged who can't even prove with certainty that it was my specific ancestor who owned their specific ancestor. Any sort of Cash restitution to the CURRENT generation - regardless of how their ancestors were treated - comes out of MY tax money, not my 6 times removed very dead and gone to dust ancestor's. Apologize? For what? I haven't done Shit to "the black race" or "african americans", nor has anyone ELSE done shit to THEM. If and when I DO something TO THEM, I'll consider the possibility that they're owed some sort of apology, but not prior to that. Affirmative action? Wake up and smell the coffee, folks. Affirmative action is No Longer Needed. They have equal rights under the law, and due to Affirmative Action, they have BETTER opportunities under the law. Don't believe me? Take a look at how many scholarships out there Require that you be black to even apply. Are those considered Racist? No. But if someone were to start a scholarship program specififying you had to be caucasion to apply, you can bet your bippy that the NAACP, Sharpton, Farahkan, Jessie Jackson, and a few Thousand members of each of their groups would scream Racism. We have BET (Black Entertainment Television) and UniVision (nothing but spanish speaking programs)- but you can bet your ass if someone attempted to start a channel and call it "WET" (White entertainment television) that there would be screams of Racism. And don't even Attempt to say that all the other channels Are aimed at whites - the crappy reality shows feature folks of all racial backgrounds to avoid charges of racism, news shows are a mix of races to avoid charges of racism, and there are no more sitcoms really. And forget hearing anything produced by a white on MTv or VH1 - they're nothing but ghetto glorifying game shows and gangsta rap. How about the workplace? Oh yeah - if you're black, you get preferential treatment if a company still goes by affirmative action, whether you're the most qualified for the job or not. Why? Because affirmative action means Quotas, and those quotas have gotta be filled, even if it's by someone who isn't as qualified. If someone says they have Black Pride, or pride in being Asian of whatever decent, or East Indian or whatever "minority" they belong to, the politically correct smile and nod. But if someone who is Not part of one of those "minorities" expresses pride in their heritage, they're branded a racist. By the line of reasoning you're presenting in the OP, Pink - there are a lot of people Ahead of them in Line to recieve apologies, remuneration, restitution, etc. Tell ya what - I'll see their "my ancestor was owned as a slave" and raise it was "My ancestors were Kiowa and Apache - their families were murdered in open warfare while they were forced onto reservations, given rotten food, deliberately exposed to deadly diseases and treated as subhuman. And that's just on my biological father's side of the family. My ancestors on my Mother's side were Cherokee, and got their land stolen while they were forced to march half way across the continent to a reservation in the name of greed. So kiss my ass if you expect ME to be sympathetic or feel like you're somehow "owed" something." Wah, my ancestors were picked on by someone else's ancestors, pay me for their suffering. It's a WAY worn out battle cry, screamed most often by those who are to friggin lazy to get off their butts and want life handed to them on a platter, regardless of skintone or racial heritage. I've got friends and friendly aquaintances of several racial backgrounds - all of them, every single one, has worked their ass off to get where they are in life, and not one of them attempted to play the Race card to get where they are. Each and every one of them has do-nothing loser relatives who scream it frequently, though!

kittinSol -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 8:43:35 PM)
Yes, it's a whirly gig being black in America today.

Irishknight -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 8:46:40 PM)
Umm ... I think a tv station named WET sounds pretty cool. Not the white entertainmet part but just "WET."

kittinSol -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 8:50:43 PM)
Wet Entertainment Tonight... definitely has a ring to it. Run it by my creative team and we'll talk about it tomorrow.

MadRabbit -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 8:55:28 PM)
Some thoughts after reading the thread.... Having a cultural identity and identifying with a cultural group is not the same thing as racism. Black people associate with other black people because they identify with them and have a degree of comfort with them from the shared experiences of growing up in that culture. Same thing as Mexicans, same thing as white people. We segregate ourselves because it's the nature of humans as a social animal. Cliches form all the time based on other factors besides race, but amazingly enough when one forms based off a racial identity and the cultural experiences that goes with that identity, the group automatically becomes "racist". To the OP, nope I don't think we live in racist times as a country. I think we all manage generally to tolerate each other and get along. But then again, I'm talking about "racism" and not "eliminating racial identity" like some people seem to be talking about in the thread. The only racism that still exists is the institutionalized form brought to us by our own government, courtesy of affirmative action that rewards jobs to people for being black and not for being qualified, Socially Disadvantaged small business grants who award free money to races determined to be "Socially Disadvantaged" and not because they are starting a business that actually benefits the country/economy in some way (I promise you, white people, are not on that list), and tax credits to encourage people to hire from groups of people determined to be facing "economic hardship". I just wish somebody would inform me of what advantages I have as a Caucasian. Since I have so many of them that I get to pay for other people to have advantages as well that I don't qualify for, I would love to know what they are so I can start using them.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 9:10:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit The only racism that still exists is the institutionalized form brought to us by our own government, courtesy of affirmative action that rewards jobs to people for being black and not for being qualified, Socially Disadvantaged small business grants who award free money to races determined to be "Socially Disadvantaged" and not because they are starting a business that actually benefits the country/economy in some way (I promise you, white people, are not on that list), and tax credits to encourage people to hire from groups of people determined to be facing "economic hardship". I just wish somebody would inform me of what advantages I have as a Caucasian. Since I have so many of them that I get to pay for other people to have advantages as well that I don't qualify for, I would love to know what they are so I can start using them. http://www.dickshovel.com/priv.html

pinksugarsub -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 9:30:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Merc, maybe i'm misreading You, but did You just say that the only traces of racism in this country are afformative action and similar programs? I said that we have government programs, such as AA, at the core of perpetuating racism. We won't get rid of the traces until the source of continuing acceptable racism is eliminated. Well, debating the value or not of programs like Affirmative Action would kinda hijack the thread...but the logic of Yr statements seems to be if we pretend that African-Americans and other minorities suffer no setbacks, burdens, or racist problems in this country as of now, all will be well. Kinda like the story about the Emperor who wore no clothes...an old fairy tale You prolly know. Speaking the truth doesn't 'create'the truth; and taking corrective action doesn't 'create' past or present injustices. Yr just not making much sense to me -- and You usually do. pinksugarsub

atursvcMaam -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 9:40:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Yes, it's a whirly gig being black in America today. Aww c'mon, it's just a whirligig to be in America (any race) every day.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 9:42:10 PM)
quote: taking corrective action doesn't 'create' past or present injustices. Factually untrue and logically absurd. The phenomenon of unintended consequences shreds that argument completely.

GreedyTop -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 9:51:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit The only racism that still exists is the institutionalized form brought to us by our own government, courtesy of affirmative action that rewards jobs to people for being black and not for being qualified, Socially Disadvantaged small business grants who award free money to races determined to be "Socially Disadvantaged" and not because they are starting a business that actually benefits the country/economy in some way (I promise you, white people, are not on that list), and tax credits to encourage people to hire from groups of people determined to be facing "economic hardship". I just wish somebody would inform me of what advantages I have as a Caucasian. Since I have so many of them that I get to pay for other people to have advantages as well that I don't qualify for, I would love to know what they are so I can start using them. http://www.dickshovel.com/priv.html thank you, HK... that was an interesting read..

pinksugarsub -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 9:54:38 PM)
W/we could certainly debate which group has suffered the most, historically, but yes, the Native Americans have a claim to that 'prize'. When i lived in Tallahassee, every year there'd be a Springtime Parade with a figure dressed as Andrew Jackson leading it -- Andrew Jackson, the man probably most responisble for the genocide of the Seminole Tribe. i joined with the Native Americans protesting this, and we were eventually successful in getting that figure removed from the parade..and i'm proud of what little i had to do with that. Yes, we owe apologies to our children for the racist society we have brought them into, and yes, racism exists (or fails to exist) all around the world...but i have only ever lived in Amerca, so i can't speak to the cultures of other countries very intelligently. i worked in a civil service, unionized shop with all the requisite sensitivity training and while i admit some people did seem to survive despite their complete incompetence, they were almost always white. i know of several African-Americans of various levels of the organization who suffered insults, burdens, and ouright racists acts by others with no recourse whatsoever. There is no way A/anyone can convince me that African-Americans have somehow gained the upper hand in the workforce or any other segment of our society. pinksugarsub

celticlord2112 -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 9:59:19 PM)
quote: Yes, we owe apologies to our children for the racist society we have brought them into, and yes, racism exists (or fails to exist) all around the world...but i have only ever lived in Amerca, so i can't speak to the cultures of other countries very intelligently. I owe no apologies. You owe no apologies. There are racists in our society, but ours is not a racist society, and hasn't been for quite some time. Open your eyes to the real world around you. It's quite a sight, actually.

atursvcMaam -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 10:13:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Merc, maybe i'm misreading You, but did You just say that the only traces of racism in this country are afformative action and similar programs? I said that we have government programs, such as AA, at the core of perpetuating racism. We won't get rid of the traces until the source of continuing acceptable racism is eliminated. Well, debating the value or not of programs like Affirmative Action would kinda hijack the thread...but the logic of Yr statements seems to be if we pretend that African-Americans and other minorities suffer no setbacks, burdens, or racist problems in this country as of now, all will be well. Kinda like the story about the Emperor who wore no clothes...an old fairy tale You prolly know. Speaking the truth doesn't 'create'the truth; and taking corrective action doesn't 'create' past or present injustices. Yr just not making much sense to me -- and You usually do. pinksugarsub imho, from time to time, each of us individually, or as a group will suffer setbacks, burdens and problems. Chances are, as long as someone is willing to "fix" them, there is no motivation to learn to deal with them effectively. Overcoming setbacks, burdens and problems is how most people learn and develop.

kdsub -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 10:30:49 PM)
I hate to agree with celticlord on anything...but...I do believe the United States should not be called a racist society any longer..BUT there are still many racist among us...of all races. I would like anyone to point me to a society that has done a better job of changing its laws and attitudes towards racism of any kind. Butch

atursvcMaam -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 11:36:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub W/we could certainly debate which group has suffered the most, historically, but yes, the Native Americans have a claim to that 'prize'. When i lived in Tallahassee, every year there'd be a Springtime Parade with a figure dressed as Andrew Jackson leading it -- Andrew Jackson, the man probably most responisble for the genocide of the Seminole Tribe. i joined with the Native Americans protesting this, and we were eventually successful in getting that figure removed from the parade..and i'm proud of what little i had to do with that. Yes, we owe apologies to our children for the racist society we have brought them into, and yes, racism exists (or fails to exist) all around the world...but i have only ever lived in Amerca, so i can't speak to the cultures of other countries very intelligently. i worked in a civil service, unionized shop with all the requisite sensitivity training and while i admit some people did seem to survive despite their complete incompetence, they were almost always white. i know of several African-Americans of various levels of the organization who suffered insults, burdens, and ouright racists acts by others with no recourse whatsoever. There is no way A/anyone can convince me that African-Americans have somehow gained the upper hand in the workforce or any other segment of our society. pinksugarsub Wow, that is a whole lot of guilt, perhaps i should not have brought chilren into the world until it was perfect. Actually i probably would not be allowed to stay in a perfect world anyhow. My children know that some people say and do mean things to others. Sometimes it is because they are not nice, and others because they do not know any better.

Alumbrado -> RE: Racism (6/3/2008 11:44:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I hate to agree with celticlord on anything...but...I do believe the United States should not be called a racist society any longer..BUT there are still many racist among us...of all races. I would like anyone to point me to a society that has done a better job of changing its laws and attitudes towards racism of any kind. Butch There are still many racists among us, and the overt changes in laws and attitudes have forced many more to hide their racism and adopt a covert approach to it. The new 'I'm no racist, buuuut...' is no less racist than the old version, and seems harder to eradicate.

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Racism (6/4/2008 5:04:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub Yes, we owe apologies to our children for the racist society we have brought them into, sugar, you're going to stress yourself out with all of this guilt you're placing on your shoulders. shrug it off and realize we don't owe ANYONE, my daughters included, for the racist society that exists today. you'll be apologizing until the end of the world happens! there will always be a racist society as long as parents keep raising their kids to think and act differently towards other races. we who are parents are responsible for what we do, say, etc in front of them because like sponges they will mimic us when they reach adulthood.

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