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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:13:30 PM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Directed advertising is another concern. In the UK the DVLA has sold car registration information. Imagine if companies could find out who you really are and target you? Anyone remember loyalty cards, so Mr Jones you visited a doctor on Saturday do we need to adjust your health insurance payments?

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:15:34 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		It's a fucked up world, FullCircle, it's a fucked up world.

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:20:42 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
How about the possibility that it was the aunts phone that was tracked???
Man and they say conservatives are heartless.


On the contrary it would be nice to hear about positive uses. Sadly I live in a country where it is easier to criminalise the law abiding citizens to help improve crimes figures. They used to only be able to track the sim, new sim new identity. Not sure if that has changed but most criminals know to change the sim when stealing a phone it's only the law abiding citizens that keep the same sim because constantly changing it is an inconvenience. Sums it up really lazy policing.

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:23:09 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It's a fucked up world, FullCircle, it's a fucked up world.


Indeed it is: guilty until owner of a phone because phone owners can prove their lack of guilt.

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:26:24 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

How so?

You mean the police had the thugs phone details so was able to track them but they didn't know who they were or where they usually hang out?


thugs are dumbasses-they stole her phone and used it to call all their thug friends to come share the coke they bought with the money they stole.......sorry should have been more specific......

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:27:11 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		OK just a few basic things you may not have considered,
aunt murdered, how often can they locate a suspect ever if the don't get them almost right away? pretty rare
So if they caught the guys likely they knew where to look based on something like a stupid mistake by the criminals.
Something like they took the phone and the police traced the location right away, before they took the opportunity to change the sim chip, while the bill would still be going to someone else.

The heartless was a jab to get your attention to the fact that you pretty much dismissed the MURDER as if it were nothing focusing instead on the very unlikely idea that they knew where to locate the suspects based on knowing the suspects phone number.




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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:31:09 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Directed advertising is another concern. In the UK the DVLA has sold car registration information. Imagine if companies could find out who you really are and target you? Anyone remember loyalty cards, so Mr Jones you visited a doctor on Saturday do we need to adjust your health insurance payments?


They already can. The other day I got a letter from Baytown Hyundai which identified my Eddie Bauer Explorer by VIN # and offered me $500 above trade in value now through 6/30 if I trade in on 2008 Sonata for $18,995. They also claim Ill save $2187 a year on gas... Obviously they got the registration info....

Similarly, Im sure that "Sporty's Pilot Shop" doesnt mail out their catalogs to everyone in America so its a pretty safe bet that they got my name and address from the FAA...

Once again - SO WHAT? Thats business... Hal Shevers (owner of Sportys) isnt getting any of my $$$ cause I buy everything he sells, and some things he doesnt, wholesale anyway but if he wants to mail me a catalog then God Bless him... Likewise for Baytown Hyundai #1 I aint going to Baytown, #2 If I wanted a Sonata I would have bought a Sonata not an Explorer, #3 unless it says Eddie Bauer Explorer, Corvette, or BMW on it I dont drive it and #4 I could give a fuck about saving money on gas but hey it was worth a shot... I give them credit for trying.

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:33:15 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

~fr~

being able to track a cell phone let the detectives know the general area to look for the 2 thugs that murdered my aunt.  that in its self is enough for me to say its a good thing.


Sorry for your loss and I'm glad they were caught.  There are definitely advantages, I can't argue that.  I guess the question is how much of a surveillance society do we want to have.  We're already under the camera's eye already from the moment we leave our houses.  Toll booth's photograph your car, red light/speed cameras monitor your driving, atm's photograph your banking, every store from your local convenient mart to Nordstrom video your every moment, many cities even have cameras monitoring their bar and entertainment districts.

We have the technology to create a virtually completely safe and crime-free society.  Cameras can be mandated in every room of your home.  Domestic violence would disappear, child abuse would disappear, drug use would be virtually eliminated.  We can even increase worker productivity by monitoring your sleep and making sure you get up on time for work.

Is that what we want?  Obviously I'm exaggerating things but, if you think about it, it's not really that exaggerated.  George Orwell's "1984" created concern over the potential for the type of governmental control that we sheepishly accept without a thought today.  What's the next 20 years going to bring?     

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:35:22 PM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		I don't deal with emotive arguments and neither should the law.

Better a guilty man walks free than an innocent man be incarcerated, what happened to that argument? The Police can’t just rely on this technology to build a case it isn’t good enough for that. I just bought a phone earlier, I  got a good deal as it happens, the bloke was in a bit of a hurry but it was the latest model so I didn’t really care.


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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:41:10 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		No but you did jump to the conclussion without any evidence that the police used an illegal means to track the suspects.
Which was proven to be in error. FACT they did track the aunts phone. Fact they didn't have a name or phone number of the suspect it was a street mugging/ murder. Fact the use of the tracking was entirely consistant with the law.
Non of the abuses that are a real potential problem were in evidence yet you jumped right to that assumption that they were.

So you violated your own ideal of innocent until proven guilty based on the fact that it was the police. You assumed they were guilty of illegal tracking without evidence.



< Message edited by Archer -- 6/5/2008 1:42:57 PM >

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:44:24 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		I have no evidence they used legal means. I have no idea what evidence was submitted and what was thrown out in that case. To highlight one good reason for the use of it doesn't negate the many reasons against it in my mind.

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:48:23 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You don't understand the privacy concerns?  Well hell, China's a growing economy.  You can make a lot of money there real quick.  Of course you will have to subject yourself to near constant government surveillance, especially as a foreigner.  Then again, you have nothing to hide.  So if I can pull some strings with China Southern Airlines to get you a job you would be ready to hop on the next flight over, right?


No thank you - Im not looking for an airline job. I make more as a contractor and dont have my life run by the senority list.  However, if you can hook me up with a lucrative enough training contract / crew lease agreement with China Southern Airlines Ill not only take it but Ill pay you a healthy finders fee... While Im over there, they can spy on me all they want because - just like here, when I am abroad, I dont do anything that I have to hide. If Chineese spies want to listen to me telling someone I want the duck sauce in the packets not the red shit in the cups then more power to them. Fuck, they can bring me my Number 11 Combo (Shrimp Chow Mein, Soup, Eggroll) PERSONALLY. Its actually in their best interest to do so cause I tip well... They would probably make more bringing me lunch than they do with Chinese Intel.



I guess we should change that thing about "give me liberty or give me death" to " take my liberty, hey, I have nothing to hide".  We'll just update it a little for the new millenium.

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:49:27 PM   
sub4hire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

do they say what model of cell phone he had?
cause I know some of em dont have a gps feature (though by and large they have been phased out)



No it didn't but I know it happens a lot.  When I lived in California there was a mountain range...I believe in another state.  Anyway there are certain months of the year it is "not recommended" to hike.  Every single year someone would get lost.  They'd call the rescuers.  Who would then risk their own life to go search.  To more often than not never locate them.  I've been trying to think of the mountain all day...so far my mind is a blank.  It was all over the news...to.  At least 3 or 4 small groups of people a year would go missing on that mountain.
Maybe if you are important enough they track you when you are lost.  If your relatives and friends have made the right impression on the cops or whoever.
I know a lot of people go untracked every single year.  Only to find thawing bodies the next spring.


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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:49:40 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Aaawwww! I was starting to like the 'Live free or die' on the New Hampshire car licence plates. Awww  .

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:50:28 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Nor do all the potential abuses negate the benifits. They have to be ballanced.

The evidence we ahve is the word of the nefew, as posted that they had his aunt's phone with them still, and that the police used the aunt's phone to locate the suspects (possesion of the phone in itself is sufficient probable cause for the arrest.)
The rest of the evidence used to get a conviction is beyond the scope of what we know.

Fact the woman was killed violently
Fact tracking HER phone lead the police to these suspects
Fact possession of the phone constituted probable cause for an arrest.




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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:50:52 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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From: The Desert
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

do they say what model of cell phone he had?
cause I know some of em dont have a gps feature (though by and large they have been phased out)



No it didn't but I know it happens a lot.  When I lived in California there was a mountain range...I believe in another state.  Anyway there are certain months of the year it is "not recommended" to hike.  Every single year someone would get lost.  They'd call the rescuers.  Who would then risk their own life to go search.  To more often than not never locate them.  I've been trying to think of the mountain all day...so far my mind is a blank.  It was all over the news...to.  At least 3 or 4 small groups of people a year would go missing on that mountain.
Maybe if you are important enough they track you when you are lost.  If your relatives and friends have made the right impression on the cops or whoever.
I know a lot of people go untracked every single year.  Only to find thawing bodies the next spring.



im wondering if it is a state by state thing then


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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 1:56:28 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Could be Ahser.  Since living in NE...well we really don't have any mountains here so no clue what they would do here.
The western side of the state but I'm on the eastern side...and the news around here doesn't like to report on anything even remotely resembling real news.

So, I still read the news out of California...someone just went missing a couple of week's ago..still missing today.


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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 2:00:47 PM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

im wondering if it is a state by state thing then



I think that from the standpoint of tracking a lost hiker by cell phone - first of all you need service. Having a pocket full of cell phones wont help ya if they cant hit a cell site. (Hence the reason when I do backcountry hunts I carry an aircraft transciever NOT a cell phone. If I fall and break my ankle elk hunting id rather tell a United or FedEx captain at 35,000 feet to contact SAR than to crawl somplace for a cell signal. (Edited to add: I take a sat phone to South Africa or parts of Alaska with me but they wont get a signal out of a tree canopy and need a clear sky view so they are really only for desert, tundra, savanah.)

Secondly, unless its a phone with GPS you need not one, not two but THREE towers to triangulate a position. Hence the reason SAR pilots fly a triangular search patter because then using DME you can find they are X miles from known position 1, Y miles from known position 2, and Z miles from known position 3 plot the three radials and POOF the intersection is the position...  If they only hit one tower well then all you know is he is "Somewhere in the granby natl forest" which is the same thing you get when your wife calls the ranger and says "my husband is in the granby natl forest and didnt come home last month"....

Third , the battery must stay charged until they close in... Othewise they just know he is "within 3 miles of..." which leaves a huge area to search...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/5/2008 2:05:20 PM >

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 2:01:17 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Rule, I agree with your last statement.  We shouldn't have to worry about being monitored.  But, as Fullcircle mentioned, if they get a warrant they can do it.  If they are caught doing so without a warrant they should be prosecuted.   Seeks, I am glad that they were able to catch the guys who killed your aunt using this technology.  It shows the good and bad side of this advance.


Agreed.  My point is the potential for abuse without a warrant, which has been welll-documented under this administration and then leads to dangerous precedents even on a local level.

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RE: Big Brother Tracks P/pl's Location by Cell Phone Use - 6/5/2008 2:03:24 PM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		damn
there is a new gps being developed with the National guard thats supposed to have a panic button, hopefully that will make it so there are less dead hikers

(sorry for the hijack)
heres a quote that is more on-topic

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory.  - Thomas Jefferson


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