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ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

There's no such thing as 'Ameerican values'; W/we are a diverse culture and values vary widely.  t is simply ridiculous to posit that if they existed,'American values' are based on 'Christian values'; whatever that means.
 
The Founding Fathers were very concerned about the abuses they had seen in Europe when the power of the church was combined with the power of the state.  That's why there's a specific clause in the Constitution prohibiting this.
 
 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.'
 
pinksugarsub 

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: Icarys

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

It's not an argument based on the Bible or Christian values, but rather American values.

Ironically, American values are somewhat synonymous with Christian values, but that's not the point.

They feel that marriage is an American institution and a part of the "traditional values" that this country was founded on and are part of American culture.

I didn't say I respect the argument or the viewpoints, but respect the fact they are doing what they think is right. Which war in history had a side that declared themselves to be the "wrong" ones or the "evil" ones or did both sides think themselves to be "righteous"?

But then again...I have this annoying knack for seeing both sides of an argument most of the time.

Edited to Add : To answer the question of why the fuck this is an issue, beleive it or not, a lot of people don't share the vision of male-male and female-female couples walking down the streets, holding hands, and kissing in public.

Just thought I would throw in something a little different amongst the dog pile this time.

Religion is what drives this..where do you think the idea that two men together is wrong came from?the American values as i believe were drawn mostly from religion.this is one of them.

Thank you for repeating the bolded part of my argument for everyone who didn't catch it the first time (including you).

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

There's no such thing as 'Ameerican values'; W/we are a diverse culture and values vary widely.  t is simply ridiculous to posit that if they existed,'American values' are based on 'Christian values'; whatever that means.
 
The Founding Fathers were very concerned about the abuses they had seen in Europe when the power of the church was combined with the power of the state.  That's why there's a specific clause in the Constitution prohibiting this.
 
 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.'
 
pinksugarsub 

So Congress wrote a clause....big fucking deal.

To somehow think that Christian ethics hasn't had a huge influence on the formation of American social norms and values is ridicoulous.

Look at the general American norms regarding human sexuality. Think Christianity didn't have an influence on that?

What we as a society come to value as whole is based on what we know and how we are influenced and that influence has been predominantly Christian.

Further more, if traditional values don't exist in some shape or form, then how does marriage exist in the first place?

With such a huge variety of cultures and ethics and ways of life regarding areas such as polygamy and homosexuality, why is it that male-female monogamous marriages merged forth as the one instutition that is only recognized by law for the American people as a whole?

I'm sure Christian values had no influence on that.

I would say marriage in and of itself is a perfectly good example of a "tradition" that has been set forth via law as a value for all of us.

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ORIGINAL: Griswold

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ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

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I disagree with you there - marriage is a contract between two individuals (or bears), and it has been possible to get married outside of the religious context for a while now (isn't that what JoP are for?). 

Strictly speaking, a 'marriage' is not a 'contract' under the law -- that's one reason W/we have a separate family court system to handle matters arising from 'marriage' and related matters.
 
IMO, 'gay marriage' is patently constitutional, and -- hopefully soon -- there will be a Supreme Court decision on point that admits this, and ends the various attempts to 'protect the sanctity of marriage' by states overrun by the Religious Right.
 
pinksugarsub

P.S.  O hell's bells; i can't figure out what's happened to the quote thingie here.

< Message edited by pinksugarsub -- 6/10/2008 11:54:27 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Griswold)

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

-FR-

As someone who has a few friends who are adamantly opposed to gay marriage, all I can say is they do so from a position of conservative values and do so, because they think it's morally wrong and the destruction of an institution they hold to be sacred.

Even though I don't agree with their opinions and find all of them to have very ignorant and misinformed opinions of homosexuals, they are doing what they think is right.

And...

I just gotta respect that.

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But the unwillingness to acknowledge the humanity and the reasoning behind a religious person's opposition to gay marriage smacks of dehumanization. Pot ... kettle .... black.

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

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But the unwillingness to acknowledge the humanity and the reasoning behind a religious person's opposition to gay marriage smacks of dehumanization. Pot ... kettle .... black.

Moral relativism at its worst.

So those who fail to be tolerant of the intolerant are just as bad?

In the same way that the people who condemn those who dragged James Byrd to his death, or those who killed Matthew Shepard, are just as dehumanized as the killers?

Irrational. 

Those who claim that black people shouldn't be allowed to miscegenate, or that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry are denying  others something that they hold valuable for themselves...

Citing religion while ignoring the golden rule thusly is hypocrisy, and no rationalization based on that automatically deserves respect, no matter how much the holder of that belief appears to be sincere.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

How does it take anything away from 'good' conventional heterosexual couples that gay couples are able to sign a marriage contract too? If they don't like it, they don't have to watch.

You're defending a mentality that denies equality of rights and you're accusing those that argue in favour of equality of rights of being somewhat inhumane? That's really perverse, Firm. Not in the good way either  .

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's likely that many of us have reached a level of saturation when it comes to people with religious beliefs trying to impose their way of life and their vision on everybody else. I really respect religious people who are quiet about their beliefs. I don't respect religious people who try and shove down their religious system down everybody's throats as if it were some kind of panacea to the ills of the world.

That's the problem with a certain kind of religious belief, the idea the those that hold them are in touch with some kind of universal truth and have somehow the right to tell others what to do in their own bedrooms, with their own bodies, and with their own minds.

That's wrong.

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I really respect religious people who are quiet about their beliefs.

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It's likely that many of us have reached a level of saturation when it comes to people with gay beliefs trying to impose their way of life and their vision on everybody else. I really respect gay people who are quiet about their beliefs. I don't respect gay people who try and shove down their gay system down everybody's throats as if it were some kind of panacea to the ills of the world.

That's the problem with a certain kind of gay belief, the idea the those that hold them are in touch with some kind of universal truth and have somehow the right to tell others what to do in their own bedrooms, with their own bodies, and with their own minds.

That's wrong.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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I really respect religious people who are quiet about their beliefs.

Translation:  You don't respect religious people at all.

Beliefs are not things to be kept in a closet, kittin.  That is never in the order of things.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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I really respect religious people who are quiet about their beliefs.

Translation:  You don't respect religious people at all.

Beliefs are not things to be kept in a closet, kittin.  That is never in the order of things.

You couldn't be further from the truth - what you think is one thing, however, but I ask that you not presume to say what I think. Especially when you're so desperately wrong.

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There is a Southron saying you might learn to get familar with, kittin.

"Hit dawg hollars."

Firm

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ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

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There is a Southron saying you might learn to get familar with, kittin.

"Hit dawg hollars."

Firm

It's a "bit dog hollers" not hit.  In this case Firm, that dog don't hunt.