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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:06:32 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

he's said several times that he has respect for the gay belief



Slaveboy asked a very pertinent question, and I shall repeat it: what are gay beliefs?

I can't speak for him but what I took it to mean was based solely on the marriage part and their rights to be seen equal for it.as opposed to christian beliefs on not letting them...i thought it was farely clear..i think your getting caught on word usage looking for a way to just argue myself..i think he sees both sides is all hes saying..i know thats what i see.


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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:07:51 PM   
SteelofUtah


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Status: offline 		To answer the OP's Question.

Everything Posted above and Below this is Why.

Hope that helps.

Steel

< Message edited by SteelofUtah -- 6/11/2008 12:25:31 PM >

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:09:02 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

What you have specifically called people who hold a religious view of life, I don't really care to go back and look, but you've already made your beliefs about people of religion quite clear.  Do you deny it?



Religion is a wonderful thing for those that keep it to themselves - what is unforgivable is when religion is used as a political tool to establish rules for all of us. 

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:12:21 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		A society without rules and standards will soon turn into a very dangerous place. Dontcha know ?
At the moment the Liberals are the new authoritarians.

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:37:47 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

What you have specifically called people who hold a religious view of life, I don't really care to go back and look, but you've already made your beliefs about people of religion quite clear.  Do you deny it?



Religion is a wonderful thing for those that keep it to themselves - what is unforgivable is when religion is used as a political tool to establish rules for all of us. 


I'd ask that you think a little wider.

You have beliefs.  You think your beliefs are correct.  You use your beliefs to guide your political activities.

But that's not allowed by others?

Think deeper, kittin.

Firm


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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:47:26 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		We'll just have to agree to disagree: I wouldn't dream of telling people whether they can get married or not simply because it contradicts my personal religious beliefs. It's not an infringement on anybody's liberty that people should be allowed to marry who they like, regardless of the gender of their prospective spouse. Indeed, as stated earlier in this thread, marriage isn't even an altogether religious institution.

If it pleases people to express their displeasure at something, all the more power to them. Perhaps that's all you're arguing in favour of? In which case, fair enough.

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:52:59 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You have beliefs.  You think your beliefs are correct.  You use your beliefs to guide your political activities.



...all true. however i also believe in a thing called human rights, and in my universe my beliefs have no validity when they impinge on the rights of others. It is why i have not bombed a church where the preacher was being bigotted in any way.
Do we have a statistic to compare the bombing of abortion clinics for instance against the bombing of churches which pointedly refuse to condemn such acts?
Seems to me that in that light one side of this argument does not believe the other side has a right to a belief. Such a situation inevitably polarises things until both sides now have those who don't believe the other side has the right to their belief.
Therefore, in order to clearly analyse such a situation we have to look at the history of the problem as much as the status quo.

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 12:59:01 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You have beliefs.  You think your beliefs are correct.  You use your beliefs to guide your political activities.



...all true. however i also believe in a thing called human rights, and in my universe my beliefs have no validity when they impinge on the rights of others. It is why i have not bombed a church where the preacher was being bigotted in any way.
Do we have a statistic to compare the bombing of abortion clinics for instance against the bombing of churches which pointedly refuse to condemn such acts?
Seems to me that in that light one side of this argument does not believe the other side has a right to a belief. Such a situation inevitably polarises things until both sides now have those who don't believe the other side has the right to their belief.
Therefore, in order to clearly analyse such a situation we have to look at the history of the problem as much as the status quo.


In general, I do not disagree with you (there is a lot of room for a peaceful philosophical discussion, however. )

My entire point is that demonizing and antagonizing isn't helpful.  On either side.

Firm


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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 1:25:59 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

My entire point is that demonizing and antagonizing isn't helpful.  On either side.



...inarguably true Firm.......however, as you and i both know personally, it is all too easy to fall into such an antagonistic relationship. (strange but true, Firm and i have had our own version of a hissy fit some months back...didn't reflect well on either of us)........so, in honour of that episode, how does one hold back from unthinking partisanship? How does one honour ones opponent, even if what they believe is, by all your own belief-standards, wrong to the point of evil?
In the past i have seen even posing such a question to be defined as a 'liberal' viewpoint. Is it really? Or is it just trying to take a step back for perspectives sake? And doesn't defining it as 'liberal' simply demonise 'conservatism'?

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 4:30:13 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

My entire point is that demonizing and antagonizing isn't helpful.  On either side.



...inarguably true Firm.......however, as you and i both know personally, it is all too easy to fall into such an antagonistic relationship. (strange but true, Firm and i have had our own version of a hissy fit some months back...didn't reflect well on either of us)........so, in honour of that episode, how does one hold back from unthinking partisanship? How does one honour ones opponent, even if what they believe is, by all your own belief-standards, wrong to the point of evil?
In the past i have seen even posing such a question to be defined as a 'liberal' viewpoint. Is it really? Or is it just trying to take a step back for perspectives sake? And doesn't defining it as 'liberal' simply demonise 'conservatism'?


Disagreeing without being disagreeable - ty philosophy

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 9:47:46 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

You (beargonewild), slaveboy and kittin are either intentionally being obtuse, or you have simply failed to understand the plain meaning of my words (not kittin's words which I aped to make a point). 

Either that, or some people are really so deep into narrow-minded self-righteousness that they can not see my point.

And I ain't talking about religious people either.

Firm


I wasn't being obtuse Firm.  I am certainly not self righteous.  People who condone hate and intolerance are not Christians.  It amazes me how much the teachings of Jesus are corrupted and misunderstood by the people who profess to follow them. 

I was raised with Christianity.  I very much respect the teachings of Jesus.  Jesus taught love and tolerance.  The people who pervert his words for their own selfish and hateful agendas are the worst sinners of all.  If you remember Sunday school, Christ threw those kinds of people out of the temple.   

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 9:53:22 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

You might get away with arguing that 'Christianity' is the most prevalent form of religion in the US, but that term includes such a diverse group of churches, belief systems, cults and the like that to me it lacks real meaning.
 

Let's say for arguments sake and the fact that it's too late for me to start digging up statistical information that Christiianity is the prevalent form of religion in the U.S. (I know it is, I'm just too tired to prove it)
 
quote:


Nevertheless, it is precisely the purpose of the Establishment Clause and decisions flowing from it to prevent a majority of believers from imposing their symbols, practices, or theologies on the minorities.
 
Read a few of these decisions and You'll see what i mean.
 
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html
 
pinksugarsub
 


The Clause is completely irrevalent in this. This has nothing to do with seperating the Church and State through legal fine writing, but simply how a Democracy works.

Follow me on this...

A Democracy decides it's social laws, morals, and values based on what the majority wants or needs those laws, morals, and values to be.

Religion and philosophy are the two main sources from which an individual derives their values.

The majority of the people in the Democracy are Christian.

So when it comes time to make the laws, which type of values are going to predominantly influence the values those laws respresent?

The majority's values which are Christian values.

Christians might be composed of a ton of different sects, but you can still find a lot of common ground when it comes to the basic values it represents and that common ground has influenced the development of our society. Marriage and the monogamous commitment to one partner, the shame and repression of our sexuality, and the censorship and perscecution of various forms of sexuality because they stray too far from the conception of a fetus are just a couple off the top of my head that still linger today. We've dismissed and grown past countless more through out history.

Edited to Add : P.S. Everything in the link was something dismissed that had directly to do a religous belief. I am not talking about religous beliefs directly, but about the values we develop as individuals due to our religious and philosophical beliefs.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 6/11/2008 10:09:25 PM >

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 9:55:14 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Either that, or some people are really so deep into narrow-minded self-righteousness that they can not see my point.

Firm


And that's how wars start.

The zealousness of the trully right.

I enjoyed your posts and thanks for posting them. It's nice to know that there is other people out there who can see from both sides of the line.

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 9:58:29 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

You (beargonewild), slaveboy and kittin are either intentionally being obtuse, or you have simply failed to understand the plain meaning of my words (not kittin's words which I aped to make a point). 

Either that, or some people are really so deep into narrow-minded self-righteousness that they can not see my point.

And I ain't talking about religious people either.

Firm


I wasn't being obtuse Firm.  I am certainly not self righteous.  People who condone hate and intolerance are not Christians.  It amazes me how much the teachings of Jesus are corrupted and misunderstood by the people who profess to follow them. 

I was raised with Christianity.  I very much respect the teachings of Jesus.  Jesus taught love and tolerance.  The people who pervert his words for their own selfish and hateful agendas are the worst sinners of all.  If you remember Sunday school, Christ threw those kinds of people out of the temple.   


The influence of Jesus's love and tolerance would be more obvious if you didn't refer to people who don't agree with you or see things your way as "morons".


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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/11/2008 10:10:44 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

The influence of Jesus's love and tolerance would be more obvious if you didn't refer to people who don't agree with you or see things your way as "morons".


Well, I am not a Christian.  I just said I respected the teachings of Jesus.  I don't respect people who pervert those teachings to further their agendas.  People who claim to follow Jesus, then try to force their beliefs on others have not comprehended the words of Jesus.  I'll paraphrase a few for you:

"Remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about the speck in another's." 
"Judge not, lest ye be judged." 
"He who is without sin, cast the first stone." 
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" 

I don't see anything in the words of Jesus that tells folks to impose those teachings on people that think otherwise. 

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/12/2008 1:30:06 AM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

The influence of Jesus's love and tolerance would be more obvious if you didn't refer to people who don't agree with you or see things your way as "morons".


Well, I am not a Christian.  I just said I respected the teachings of Jesus.  I don't respect people who pervert those teachings to further their agendas.  People who claim to follow Jesus, then try to force their beliefs on others have not comprehended the words of Jesus.  I'll paraphrase a few for you:

"Remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about the speck in another's." 
"Judge not, lest ye be judged." 
"He who is without sin, cast the first stone." 
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" 



You left out a very well known, but often misquoted one....it can be found in Leviticus 7:

"And Yeah I say unto thee, Gris is always right".

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/12/2008 7:05:56 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

We'll just have to agree to disagree: I wouldn't dream of telling people whether they can get married or not simply because it contradicts my personal religious beliefs. It's not an infringement on anybody's liberty that people should be allowed to marry who they like, regardless of the gender of their prospective spouse. Indeed, as stated earlier in this thread, marriage isn't even an altogether religious institution.

If it pleases people to express their displeasure at something, all the more power to them. Perhaps that's all you're arguing in favour of? In which case, fair enough.


And when people use their right...the right of free speech, granted to those we disagree with as well as those we agree with...they have the right to do so without being labeled a "homophobe" or a moron, don't they?  Especially when the ONLY reason for labeling them as such is because their views are in disagreement with yours or because you have lumped them into one all-encompassing group...the "they are conservative in their outlook so they must all be gun-toting, bible-thumping, missionary-position-only, unenlightened, baby-killing right-wingers".  Sorry, speaking for this conservative...none of that defines ME.

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/12/2008 7:10:53 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		As I have never used these terms, I am at a loss as to why you addressed your post to me *shrug*.

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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/12/2008 7:24:55 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

As I have never used these terms, I am at a loss as to why you addressed your post to me *shrug*.


Perhaps you've never used that exact term, but your writings and posting scream disdain and distaste for anyone who thinks differently from you, and dares to express their opinion.

Firm


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RE: Why, in the Holy living Mother of God FUCK is this ... - 6/12/2008 7:29:26 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		You're entitled to your opinion.

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