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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 6:46:32 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

*yawn*

Thread hijacks are not going to help you obtain anything resembling credibility here.  Moving right along....




You've been called again on the your assertions, like your claim that Obama played the race card before anyone else... what was your defense again?  Oh yeah, he mentioned that his father was black in his book. 

And you claimed Wright was lying about the government deliberately infecting black people at Tuskegee... Your rationalization?
Oh yeah, it wasn't the governemnt, the victims did it to themselves, even the women and children.   


And now we have you portraying a call for higher community standards as a bad thing...but only for a black presidential candidate. All the previous candidates get a free pass on anything that may have ever been said by any member of their church unless it was in full Klan regalia...

No wonder you have started hijacking your own thread with the yawns and chuckles and red herrings to evade the questions... Nothing you could say would offset the picture painted by your own words up till now.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 6:49:57 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Further, the issue which you refuse to address, is that you have no idea what the "b;ack experience" is or has been.Therefore, you have no context in which to judge or criticize the statement of " Black Values".

I have addressed it.  Repeatedly.

Once again, I am not judging the statement at all, beyond stating its superficial characteristics.  That it is race-centric is the reality of the verbiage; that it is open to the charge of being racist and separatist is shown by the very simple word substitution I did at the head of this thread.  This much is the reality of the words as they appear on Trinity's website.   Experiences of black Americans past and present do not and cannot alter that reality.

I do not claim to understand how it presumably benefits the Trinity congregation. 

I do not claim to understand how such a value system qualifies a man to be President.

I do claim the opinion that any explicitly race-centered philosophy, ideology, or theology is incompatible with the sworn duties of national elected office in this country. 

I do claim curiosity as well as skepticism on how Obama reconciles the race-centered teachings of the church of which he has been a member for 20 years with his current sworn duty as a US Senator and the presumptive sworn duty he would have as President.

On a side note, I would also claim that liberation theology--black or otherwise--is flawed theology, but that is a topic for another thread.  If you're interested in debating the point I'll gather some materials and start it.


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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 6:52:58 PM   
KMsAngel


Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		so how large a part of any of YOUR lives, are associated with your church. is it just because he's a politician that you're digging into the church he attends? my work has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. it's impact is generally limited to the fact that i try to be a good person and uphold christian values (summed up in the golden rule). the fact that he ATTENDED for 20 years implies if he's not a person with high moral standards, at least he tries to uphold moral standards.

why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?

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20 fluffy points!

flightless cherub


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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:02:43 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		As usual, you're wrong.

The government did not systematically infect black people with syphilis.  That is historical fact.  The government did withhold treatments and prevent treatment of the 400 black men in the Tuskegee study.  That also is historical fact.  Neither behavior is morally defensible, nor will you show where I even hinted otherwise. 

I have said that the behavior was not racist, merely evil--the government has no compunction about using any class of citizens, black or white, as guinea pigs, and has a shameful history of such egalitarian evil.  Not all evils are race related.

As for Obama's own statements, they are in the public record, and require no further comment.  The reality is what it is and all the venom and vitriol in the world will not expunge that reality.

As for anger and rage masquerading as discussion.....it fails to impress.  Again.


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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:05:19 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KMsAngel

why are you making a mountain out of a molehill?



Because it fulfills the partisan agenda: grab at anything that can discredit the opposing candidate to your racing dog - especially if it's as divisive as colour and religion and power, all mixed in one handy cocktail to pour down the throats of the gullible masses.

Thankfully, few are falling for it :-) .

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:08:59 PM   
Daddysredhead


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From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		Was this topic intentionally put in Random Stupidity?  I thought "political" type stuff usually sets up camp in Off Topic.  Or was this moved here?

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:10:52 PM   
sappatoti


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From: the edge of darkness...
Status: offline 		I do believe it was moved.

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:15:34 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		Thank you, sappa. 

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:20:07 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Moved shortly after it appeared, IIRC.

Which does not mean that polemic sophistry should be rewarded by going unrefuted.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/19/2008 7:21:46 PM >

(in reply to Daddysredhead)
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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:25:54 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		CL, obfuscation is your strong suite. But, it's transparent and weak. I've made my points, repeatedly, and choose to waste no more time or energy fighting smoke.

Edited to add: I think the mod who moved this thread did the appropriate thing. The OP, imo, is so transparently ridiculous, it belongs in Random Stupidity. Perhaps there should be a category for Habitual Stupidity.


< Message edited by cjan -- 6/19/2008 7:29:05 PM >

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" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:26:22 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Fancy a pipe :-) ? *puff puff*

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:27:15 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline 		    To the OP...  As someone who has lived, and thrived in your societal norms for all of my life, I ask you, simply, how does any of what you seem to have issue with prove that Obama CANNOT hold the concerns of ALL Americans close to his heart? 

If, as I often state to any who care to listen, I am enamored of Women-of-color, ANY color, as long as there is some present (and, spare me the simplistic, presumptive argument of reflected vs. refracted color); how does that "prove" that I am against Women lacking any cultural diversity outside of a northern-european lineage?  Your whole argument seems to me to be that Obama cannot care about ALL Americans because an affiliation he once held was pro-African-American.  If that is what you truly believe then I suggest that you cast your vote for someone who has ALWAYS and ONLY held a pro-Multi-Cultural/Multi-Divinical/Multi-Ethnic-churchly affiliation.  Anyone else seems to not meet your professed standards.  Good luck with that!

In fact, now that I think about it, aren't American Satan Worshipers ALSO "American," by definition?  We shouldn't leave THEM out, either, should we?  Any candidate who has not also embraced them, for his/her entire life would also fail your litmus, would they not?

Are you simply afraid that the shoe would end up on a foot other than "White"?  Are you afraid that the rules would suddenly be reversed?  Tell us, what is it that you REALLY fear?  Basketball fell, long ago...  So, too, did Baseball...  Soccer...  Golf...  Hockey...  Now, the hallowed halls of the "White" House...  "They" are moving from sports into business and political leadership, OH MY!!!  Afraid Obama will order it painted?  What color do you think he will insist on, I wonder?

edited to add:  YOUR pride in YOUR cultural lineage is evident in your screenname...  Yet, you give the impression that it is somehow wrong for others to pridefully assert their own.  You, sir, and those of your ilk, are the reason WHY such institutions feel compelled to trumpet their beliefs...  If only to drown out the cultural cacophony or white-noise that permeates the fabric of the society in which you and I share.  You have yours; the soft, low cultural rumble in the background of ALL that is America, and begrudge others theirs.  I would be willing to bet you think any who dare to speak other than American, in America, should "go back to their own country."  Tell me, what does your name mean in the Celtic language of your ancestors?  From your original stance, the only acceptable answer should be, "I do not know!"


< Message edited by N4SDChastity -- 6/19/2008 7:48:47 PM >

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:40:30 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

To the OP... As someone who has lived, and thrived in your societal norms for all of my life, I ask you, simply, how does any of what you seem to have issue with prove that Obama CANNOT hold the concerns of ALL Americans close to his heart?

It doesn't "prove"...it raises the question.


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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:50:10 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Ironically, racists rarely seem to recognize themselves as such, when it is patently clear to others who listen to their consistently stated views and witness them grinding the same old axe, or tying the same old noose. Strange fruit, indeed.


< Message edited by cjan -- 6/19/2008 7:51:08 PM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:52:20 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

To the OP... As someone who has lived, and thrived in your societal norms for all of my life, I ask you, simply, how does any of what you seem to have issue with prove that Obama CANNOT hold the concerns of ALL Americans close to his heart?

It doesn't "prove"...it raises the question.



The obverse of which non-whites have always had to ask (to themselves, or risk repercussions), and know the true answer.  Are you upset that you know have to ask the same sort of questions that have plagued Americas non-white denizens since before your ancestors came to these shores?

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:53:22 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

You, sir, and those of your ilk, are the reason WHY such institutions feel compelled to trumpet their beliefs...  If only to drown out the cultural cacophony or white-noise that permeates the fabric of the society in which you and I share.  You have yours; the soft, low cultural rumble in the background of ALL that is America, and begrudge others theirs. 



Fabulous post: thank you.

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:54:47 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity
The obverse of which non-whites have always had to ask (to themselves, or risk repercussions), and know the true answer.  Are you upset that you know have to ask the same sort of questions that have plagued Americas non-white denizens since before your ancestors came to these shores?

No.


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 7:57:29 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

You, sir, and those of your ilk, are the reason WHY such institutions feel compelled to trumpet their beliefs...  If only to drown out the cultural cacophony or white-noise that permeates the fabric of the society in which you and I share.  You have yours; the soft, low cultural rumble in the background of ALL that is America, and begrudge others theirs. 



Fabulous post: thank you.


I endevour...

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 8:04:24 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity
The obverse of which non-whites have always had to ask (to themselves, or risk repercussions), and know the true answer.  Are you upset that you know have to ask the same sort of questions that have plagued Americas non-white denizens since before your ancestors came to these shores?

No.



Then ask the question, to yourself, as those of MY ilk have asked since our shores and lands were taken from us.  Your question comes across as disengenious, at best, racist at worst.  That sour taste you seem to be experiencing for the first time isn't new, to me, my friend.  Ask your question in darkend rooms, late at night, among your kind, and secretly plot when you will be empowered...  Oh, wait, YOU already are, aren't you?  There goes that low, persistent rumble, again...

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 6/19/2008 8:13:19 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

Then ask the question, to yourself, as those of MY ilk have asked since our shores and lands were taken from us. Your question comes across as disengenious, at best, racist at worst. That sour taste you seem to be experiencing for the first time isn't new, to me, my friend. Ask your question in darkend rooms, late at night, among your kind, and secretly plot when you will be empowered... Oh, wait, YOU already are, aren't you? There goes that low, persistent rumble, again...

Ummm.....what sour taste?

I am asking relevant questions about one man's philosophy and values--questions in which I have an interest because that man aspires to the Presidency of the United States.

I am asking for explanation.  I am, in fact, demanding it.

But, sour taste?  Not in the slightest.

That would not be the order of things.


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