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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/18/2008 11:02:36 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

       Not a caveat, O59. A critical component. Maybe look beyond the very next election when we are talking about national security issues.

      On a complete side note, I respect your decision to put your support behind Barry, now that Hillary has gone dark (no puns of any sort intended), at least until the convention.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 21

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/18/2008 11:20:52 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Not a caveat, O59. A critical component.

This is confusing to me.

It's all right with you that Al Qaeda attacked the Madrid commuter train system and nightclubs in Bali just as long as they don't blow anything up inside the US?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 22

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/18/2008 11:25:17 PM

Bethnai

Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline

They didn't do that and you can't legitimitaly claim it on their part.

but I'm still listening.

< Message edited by Bethnai -- 6/18/2008 11:26:24 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 23

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/18/2008 11:42:05 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai

They didn't do that and you can't legitimitaly claim it on their part.

but I'm still listening.

Madrid's bombing is subject of much debate but the convicts islamists who were at least inspired by Al Qaeda. Where the money came from to pay for the explosives etc. has never been adequately answered and much speculation exists that it was money from OBL and Al Qaeda.

As to Bali there really isn't even any serious doubt. These attacks were carried out by Jemaah Islamiyah which is linked by money and people to Al Qaeda. Furthermore the attack has all the earmarks of an Al Qaeda attack multiple bombs, coordination of the attacks and targeting westerners. It is also known that Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number 2 man in Al Qaeda, contacted JI seeking to have them attack a civilian target. JI did not have the money or expertise to carry out these attacks on their own.

(in reply to Bethnai)

Post #: 24

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 1:44:51 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

A quote of Obama's from the article

"I refuse to be lectured on national security by people who are responsible for the most disastrous set of foreign policy decisions in the recent history of the United States," Obama said in opening remarks that in part referred to the Iraq war.

Seems an entirely sensible stance to me.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 25

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 1:49:19 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai

They didn't do that and you can't legitimitaly claim it on their part.

but I'm still listening.

Madrid's bombing is subject of much debate but the convicts islamists who were at least inspired by Al Qaeda. Where the money came from to pay for the explosives etc. has never been adequately answered and much speculation exists that it was money from OBL and Al Qaeda.

As to Bali there really isn't even any serious doubt. These attacks were carried out by Jemaah Islamiyah which is linked by money and people to Al Qaeda. Furthermore the attack has all the earmarks of an Al Qaeda attack multiple bombs, coordination of the attacks and targeting westerners. It is also known that Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number 2 man in Al Qaeda, contacted JI seeking to have them attack a civilian target. JI did not have the money or expertise to carry out these attacks on their own.

Al Qaeda doesn't exist, it was an umbrella name made up in Washington DC to cover a multitude of fundementalist Islamic groups.

Bush's war on terror has been punching at ghosts from day one because he and his advisors have never understood the enemy, that is why the US is bogged down in Iraq.

Wrong enemy, wrong country, wrong war!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 26

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:00:40 AM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

Wasn't it the blind sheik(ali khalal?) who proposed flying planes into US buildings in the early to mid 90's, while in jail? this was after having failed at trying to bomb the world trade center from the parking lot in 1993, if i recall correctly? As the preparation and assembly for the WTC buildings and pentagon had to have been planned pretty well in advance, would it not have been Clinton's National Security team that, in large part, dropped the ball on gathering and disseminating the information, and preparing countermeasures? 8 years of planning and preparation should have caused a few questions to be raised, or at least asked. While one may not agree that there has not been an attack on US soil, and that might be a terrible thing, but to bring the team back together that brought about the conditions for the WTC attack does not seem to be the wisest approach.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 27

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:23:09 AM

DomAviator

Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline

Yes, its a fact the democrats conveniently gloss over. The planning and training for the 9-11 attacks took place under CLINTON's watch. In at least three occassions flight instructors at the Pan Am sim center (Pan Am Intl Flight Academy) called the FBI, you know Janet Reno's FBI, to report suspicious student behavior. One of the instructors, who I know personally, called about Hani Hanjour who turned out to be one of the Sept 11th "pilots". Obviously he was not taken seriously. Flight instructors in Norman OK, Pheonix Az, and Minn MN contacted Janet Reno's FBI about these men. One of them was PRACTICING THE FUCKING ATTACKS IN A SIMULATOR AT $500 AN HOUR! He was deliberately flying into terrain! The FBI actually rebuked the flight instructors - experienced airline pilots and military officers - for "racial profiling". But when in doubt the Democratic mantra is- Blame Bush!

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 28

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:59:31 AM

pollux

Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Yeah, Nuremberg was such an abysmal failure, look at how well the Reich used that to their publicity advantage, and regained all their support and power.

Because nothing deters a terrorist like putting his spiritual leader in jail.

quote:

Abdel-Rahman’s imprisonment has become a rallying point for Islamic militants around the world, including Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. In 1997, members of his group Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya conducted two attacks against European visitors to Egypt, including the massacre of 58 tourists at Deir el-Bahri in Luxor. In addition to killing women and children, the attackers mutilated a number of bodies and distributed leaflets throughout the scene demanding Rahman’s release

quote:

Or did you mean on the 'we don't need to learn from no steeenking history' planet?

And if there's one thing we've learned from the last eight years, it's that the right model for fighting terrorism is how we fought Nazi Germany in WWII and how we prosecuted Holocaust criminals afterwards.

< Message edited by pollux -- 6/19/2008 5:00:50 AM >

_____________________________

Oppressed by massive structural violence.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 29

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:21:09 AM

Irishknight

Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

Wow. There's so much to disagree with and so much to agree with. Good points and stupid statements seem to abound.

O59. there was a point when military action could have prevented 9/11. The president seated at that time chose not to send in military forces to kill OBL and his people at th terrorist training camp. What other things such an attack might have stirred up, no one can actually say.

I agree with the need to try OBL for his crimes. When he is found guilty, we should put him in the worst hole of a prison in this country and into general population. When he becomes the prison bitch and is known as "Osama Ben Dover" there will be no martyrdom for him.

As for the OP, I hate the "McCain-Bush" crap. I believe McCain would have prosecuted the war on terror in a much different way. If serving in congress makes this his plan then we need to credit all. It becomes the "Bush-McCain-Clinton-Kennedy-etc" plan of war. Other than that, I really don't have a problem with what Obama said.

And what's wrong with Winnie the Pooh? We've had Goofy runnin the show for quite a while now.

(in reply to pollux)

Post #: 30

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 8:12:13 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wow. There's so much to disagree with and so much to agree with. Good points and stupid statements seem to abound.

O59. there was a point when military action could have prevented 9/11. The president seated at that time chose not to send in military forces to kill OBL and his people at th terrorist training camp. What other things such an attack might have stirred up, no one can actually say.

I agree with the need to try OBL for his crimes. When he is found guilty, we should put him in the worst hole of a prison in this country and into general population. When he becomes the prison bitch and is known as "Osama Ben Dover" there will be no martyrdom for him.

As for the OP, I hate the "McCain-Bush" crap. I believe McCain would have prosecuted the war on terror in a much different way. If serving in congress makes this his plan then we need to credit all. It becomes the "Bush-McCain-Clinton-Kennedy-etc" plan of war. Other than that, I really don't have a problem with what Obama said.

And what's wrong with Winnie the Pooh? We've had Goofy runnin the show for quite a while now.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

Anyone who thinks they know about what happened in the days leading up to September 11, 2001 attacks,should view this Frontline piece.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Irishknight,

So the much maligned cruse missile attacks into Afghanistan(based on intel) to kill OBL, never happened?

You mean I never heard republicans chant,"No War For Monica,No War For Monica" as those missiles were launching?

Did I imagine republicans complaining about using the military in this way?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On one hand,we had a president fully engaged and seeking out OBL.

One the other,you had the republicans, doing their very best to help OBL with their stupid political clown tricks,like claiming that the missile attacks were only an attempt to distract attention from the Lewinsky scandal.

It would be really really funny,if Bush hadn`t of dropped the ball,demoted the terrorism czar and eliminated it`s cabinet position and ignored his advisers.His PDBs were sreaming "get OBL,look out for these guys,watch out,etc".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bikRrJo8G-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ri1i6nAGOE

Thank god it`s on the record.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/19/2008 8:22:23 AM >

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 31

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 8:38:45 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

Its pretty safe to say that Obama will bring in a better foreign policy team then the idiots in place now.

Republicans (and Americans) need to get away from politicizing intelligence gathering as a way to feed pre-conceived ideological agendas.

A good president would have fired Rice on the spot.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 6/19/2008 8:52:41 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 32

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 8:50:34 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Yeah, Nuremberg was such an abysmal failure, look at how well the Reich used that to their publicity advantage, and regained all their support and power.

Because nothing deters a terrorist like putting his spiritual leader in jail.

quote:

Abdel-Rahman’s imprisonment has become a rallying point for Islamic militants around the world, including Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. In 1997, members of his group Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya conducted two attacks against European visitors to Egypt, including the massacre of 58 tourists at Deir el-Bahri in Luxor. In addition to killing women and children, the attackers mutilated a number of bodies and distributed leaflets throughout the scene demanding Rahman’s release

quote:

Or did you mean on the 'we don't need to learn from no steeenking history' planet?

And if there's one thing we've learned from the last eight years, it's that the right model for fighting terrorism is how we fought Nazi Germany in WWII and how we prosecuted Holocaust criminals afterwards.

If we still used the same criteria that was used to put the NAZIs on trial, we should be putting Bush, the American leadership and his lapdog Blair on trial.

I couldn't put it better than Noam Chomsky

' Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it.'

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to pollux)

Post #: 33

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 11:26:23 AM

Irishknight

Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

Owner, I think we are talking about seperate incidents. Had a special forces team been sent in at a particular point, OBL could have been taken out. The choice was made against it for a number of reasons. The president made the choice, and believe it or not, I'm actually not second guessing him. Clinton saw a reason not to send in troops to take the man out. Had he done it, there might not have been a 9/11. There also might have been something worse done in retaliation.

I was actually against the missile attack for different reasons. Again, a trained team of spec ops could have done a better job with less collateral damage. Assassination? Hell yeah. I would much rather we had assassinated OBL annd Sodamned Insane than gotten into this war.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 34

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 11:38:13 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Owner, I think we are talking about seperate incidents. Had a special forces team been sent in at a particular point, OBL could have been taken out. The choice was made against it for a number of reasons. The president made the choice, and believe it or not, I'm actually not second guessing him. Clinton saw a reason not to send in troops to take the man out. Had he done it, there might not have been a 9/11. There also might have been something worse done in retaliation.

I was actually against the missile attack for different reasons. Again, a trained team of spec ops could have done a better job with less collateral damage. Assassination? Hell yeah. I would much rather we had assassinated OBL annd Sodamned Insane than gotten into this war.

You're seriously suggesting inserting special forces operators several hundred miles inland with no other viable escape route but helo evacuation is a plan you support vs. launching the highly touted supposedly super accurate cruise missiles?

If the intelligence as to OBL's location had been accurate the missiles would have gotten him just as well as the SEALS. However the intel was suspect at best and by the time you helo a team in and they hump across a few kilometers of rough terrain to get to the camp OBL could be long gone even if the intel had been good, the guy was not sleeping in the same place twice in those days.

SEALS and the special forces teams are great assets but deep insertion against a highly mobile target without good on the ground intel is a way to get guys killed.

BTW SEAL team doctrine calls for causing lots of "collateral damage," i.e. blow lots of random stuff up, when their target is a person. It gives the bad guys something to keep occupied with while the job gets done. That way they're less likely to get engaged by the enemy which means they're more likely to get the job done and get home safe. The idea that a guy with a rifle and a great scope drops the target from a half mile away forgets that afterwards the dead guys friends/cronies/troops are going to be stirred up like a hornets nest and will get out in the countryside looking for the sniper. That makes successful extraction much less likely. Better that a couple of hours later when all the fires are out somebody goes into the targets tent and finds him with a big smile on his neck.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/19/2008 11:44:29 AM >

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 35

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 11:39:27 AM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wow. There's so much to disagree with and so much to agree with. Good points and stupid statements seem to abound.

O59. there was a point when military action could have prevented 9/11. The president seated at that time chose not to send in military forces to kill OBL and his people at th terrorist training camp. What other things such an attack might have stirred up, no one can actually say.

I agree with the need to try OBL for his crimes. When he is found guilty, we should put him in the worst hole of a prison in this country and into general population. When he becomes the prison bitch and is known as "Osama Ben Dover" there will be no martyrdom for him.

As for the OP, I hate the "McCain-Bush" crap. I believe McCain would have prosecuted the war on terror in a much different way. If serving in congress makes this his plan then we need to credit all. It becomes the "Bush-McCain-Clinton-Kennedy-etc" plan of war. Other than that, I really don't have a problem with what Obama said.

And what's wrong with Winnie the Pooh? We've had Goofy runnin the show for quite a while now.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

Anyone who thinks they know about what happened in the days leading up to September 11, 2001 attacks,should view this Frontline piece.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Irishknight,

So the much maligned cruse missile attacks into Afghanistan(based on intel) to kill OBL, never happened?

You mean I never heard republicans chant,"No War For Monica,No War For Monica" as those missiles were launching?

Did I imagine republicans complaining about using the military in this way?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On one hand,we had a president fully engaged and seeking out OBL.

One the other,you had the republicans, doing their very best to help OBL with their stupid political clown tricks,like claiming that the missile attacks were only an attempt to distract attention from the Lewinsky scandal.

It would be really really funny,if Bush hadn`t of dropped the ball,demoted the terrorism czar and eliminated it`s cabinet position and ignored his advisers.His PDBs were sreaming "get OBL,look out for these guys,watch out,etc".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bikRrJo8G-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ri1i6nAGOE

Thank god it`s on the record.

Does that mean that if Clinton had not been distracted by intern issues that he could have gotten the job done in the first place, rather than leaving OBL around after attempting to kill him? Was there no expectation that OBL would try to strike back?

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 36

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 11:47:38 AM

Irishknight

Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

Do you have all of the facts on the mission, Ken? I bet you don't. All involved, including the president said that they thought it would work. Then President Clinton had other reservations about it. Unless you were in the meeting you have as little clue about it as the rest of us. Or do you presume to tell us that you were Bill's right hand at the time?
As for the hundred of miles in, we have a lot of ways of insertion. You're act of limiting them in your mind to helos and walking only does not lessen their capability.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 37

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 12:04:51 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Do you have all of the facts on the mission, Ken? I bet you don't. All involved, including the president said that they thought it would work. Then President Clinton had other reservations about it. Unless you were in the meeting you have as little clue about it as the rest of us. Or do you presume to tell us that you were Bill's right hand at the time?
As for the hundred of miles in, we have a lot of ways of insertion. You're act of limiting them in your mind to helos and walking only does not lessen their capability.

? How else would you do it, HALO? They're good but HALO isn't accurate enough for a time critical op. Also see below for other issues with a HALO drop.

A standard jump from a C-130 or other aircraft has the problem of from where? Afghanistan isn't exactly surounded by countries that let us stage special forces teams on standby. The closest friendly field is likely Diego Garcia out in the middle of the Indian Ocean and the carrier group is likely closer and already has the helos and pilots trained to do the insertion and recovery.

The other option would be insert teams and have them dig in near each camp and hope one gets lucky before they all get found. Which puts a lot guys at risk for a bad plan.

Realistically a helo insertion and recovery is the simplest most foolproof way of inserting troops deep inland.

If you just want to kill a guy putting a lot of HE on top of him is much simpler than dispatching highly trained and difficult to replace special forces teams.

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 38

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 12:23:26 PM

Irishknight

Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

I refuse to get into another long argument with you on what would have worked and what wouldn't. EVERYONE in the planning room including Clinton has said that the plan would have most likely have worked. He found other issues with it and decided against it. Unless you have knowledge unavailable to everyone in that room, you are arguing from a lack of knowledge.
As for how I would do it. Thats simple. I would say, "Take whatever resources you need short of nuclear and make this man dead. Get in. Kill him. Get out." They know their job better than armchair generals.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 39

RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 1:04:11 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wow. There's so much to disagree with and so much to agree with. Good points and stupid statements seem to abound.

O59. there was a point when military action could have prevented 9/11. The president seated at that time chose not to send in military forces to kill OBL and his people at th terrorist training camp. What other things such an attack might have stirred up, no one can actually say.

I agree with the need to try OBL for his crimes. When he is found guilty, we should put him in the worst hole of a prison in this country and into general population. When he becomes the prison bitch and is known as "Osama Ben Dover" there will be no martyrdom for him.

As for the OP, I hate the "McCain-Bush" crap. I believe McCain would have prosecuted the war on terror in a much different way. If serving in congress makes this his plan then we need to credit all. It becomes the "Bush-McCain-Clinton-Kennedy-etc" plan of war. Other than that, I really don't have a problem with what Obama said.

And what's wrong with Winnie the Pooh? We've had Goofy runnin the show for quite a while now.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

Anyone who thinks they know about what happened in the days leading up to September 11, 2001 attacks,should view this Frontline piece.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Irishknight,

So the much maligned cruse missile attacks into Afghanistan(based on intel) to kill OBL, never happened?

You mean I never heard republicans chant,"No War For Monica,No War For Monica" as those missiles were launching?

Did I imagine republicans complaining about using the military in this way?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On one hand,we had a president fully engaged and seeking out OBL.

One the other,you had the republicans, doing their very best to help OBL with their stupid political clown tricks,like claiming that the missile attacks were only an attempt to distract attention from the Lewinsky scandal.

It would be really really funny,if Bush hadn`t of dropped the ball,demoted the terrorism czar and eliminated it`s cabinet position and ignored his advisers.His PDBs were sreaming "get OBL,look out for these guys,watch out,etc".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bikRrJo8G-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ri1i6nAGOE

Thank god it`s on the record.

Does that mean that if Clinton had not been distracted by intern issues that he could have gotten the job done in the first place, rather than leaving OBL around after attempting to kill him? Was there no expectation that OBL would try to strike back?

So can we put you in the "No War For Monica"cheering section?

He got one single blow job.One!lol

The eager to help OBL neo-cons were the distraction.Not a blow job.Get real.

All the GOP offered us was 6 years of endless,dead-end investigations and obstructionism.And Clinton still did well!He should have gotten a BJ a day.

I wounder how much more could have been found out about OBL, if those hundreds of government lawyers/investigators and FBI agents/LEOs were working on bin-laden/al-queda and not looking down Clinton's pants?

If the millions of dollars(60 mil.) and all the man hours and law enforcement resources spent on that witch hunt were instead used where they were meant?

What could Clinton have done if he wasn`t hamstrung by a bunch of adulterous,fornicating,thieving republican hypocrites.Two of which had UMs out of wed-lock.

And these ass-clowns were going to stand in judgment of Clinton and point their smelly fingers at him?!

I fault republicans for helping to distract Clinton, at a time when he needed help to fight OBL and al-queda.

For their own selfish personal political reasons,they un-wittingly helped the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11,by distracting Clinton.

Maybe they did`t realize it at the time,but that`s what happened.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

lol

The republicans knew nothing about al-queda,OBL or world wide terror networks before 9/11.They weren`t interested and said so.

Now they`re going to act like the "experts", who know it all and can`t be questioned,even for fuck ups like Iraq..

They even criticized Clinton,for spending to much time and effort on OBL,before 9/11.Fuck`n clowns.

They have little credibility to lecture anyone,especially Mr.Obama.

Mr. Obama will however,engage in a discussion and debate on the subject.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/19/2008 1:18:51 PM >

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 40

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