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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:01:53 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Yeah, Nuremberg was such an abysmal failure, look at how well the Reich used that to their publicity advantage, and regained all their support and power.


Because nothing deters a terrorist like putting his spiritual leader in jail.

quote:

Abdel-Rahman’s imprisonment has become a rallying point for Islamic militants around the world, including Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. In 1997, members of his group Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya conducted two attacks against European visitors to Egypt, including the massacre of 58 tourists at Deir el-Bahri in Luxor. In addition to killing women and children, the attackers mutilated a number of bodies and distributed leaflets throughout the scene demanding Rahman’s release


quote:

Or did you mean on the 'we don't need to learn from no steeenking history' planet?




And if there's one thing we've learned from the last eight years, it's that the right model for fighting terrorism is how we fought Nazi Germany in WWII and how we prosecuted Holocaust criminals afterwards.


And that little bit of dishonest fakery takes you right off the table as far as having anything worthwhile to contribute.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/19/2008 4:05:05 PM >

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:02:16 PM   
celticlord2112


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Kittin, I'm not as "nice" as Celtic.

Fuck nice.  I want Al Qaeda gone.

Problem with your approach is that it has the opposite effect.  As leader of the Yugoslav partisans during WWII, Josip Tito often triggered Nazi reprisals against villages in order to recruit additional partisans.  I'd like the US to be not quite so easily and fatally manipulated.


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:05:52 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Kittin, I'm not as "nice" as Celtic.

Fuck nice.  I want Al Qaeda gone.

Problem with your approach is that it has the opposite effect.  As leader of the Yugoslav partisans during WWII, Josip Tito often triggered Nazi reprisals against villages in order to recruit additional partisans.  I'd like the US to be not quite so easily and fatally manipulated.



Celtic, I agree but you can't be "nice" to your enemies.
The second you show any empathy towards them those savages will take advantage of you.

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:17:33 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Celtic, I agree but you can't be "nice" to your enemies.
The second you show any empathy towards them those savages will take advantage of you.

True.  The trick is to outmaneuver my enemies by not making more enemies. 


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:26:32 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Celtic, I agree but you can't be "nice" to your enemies.
The second you show any empathy towards them those savages will take advantage of you.

True.  The trick is to outmaneuver my enemies by not making more enemies. 



Celtic, that assumes that your enemies are intelligent and "civilized" and not savages.

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:29:16 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Celtic, that assumes that your enemies are intelligent and "civilized" and not savages.

No, it assumes that they are of species homo sapiens  and will respond to events based on their self-perceived self-interests.

I have yet to see any evidence that this assumption is flawed.


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:42:22 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Celtic, that assumes that your enemies are intelligent and "civilized" and not savages.

No, it assumes that they are of species homo sapiens  and will respond to events based on their self-perceived self-interests.

I have yet to see any evidence that this assumption is flawed.



You are talking about al qeada right?

And if George Bush hasn't gotten Bin Laden and al qeada what makes anyone think Obama will do it?
I just don't think Obama is "tough enough" to be president when it comes to things like that.
At least McCain said; "I will go after Bin Laden, I will get him!"
Now if Bin Laden could vote in our elections................

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/19/2008 4:50:40 PM >

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 4:58:59 PM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I think any military member who puts a bullet through Bin Laden's head should be eligable for that $50 million reward too!
But,...if it were me I'd make him suffer for a few hours.
Cut his balls and dick off and not only put them in his mouth but actually make him eat them!

You would send him straight to martyrdom. Bad idea.

Bin Laden is the architect of one of the worst acts of savagery visited upon the American people.  On a purely human level, he merits an equal visitation of savagery upon him.

However, there are too many in the world who idolize bin Laden, and who would hear of such savagery and make it their rallying cry.  Motivating terrorists is not the way to prevail against them.

Bottom line: it's not enough to just cut off bin Laden's dick.  Victory means taking the heart of any and every terrorist and suicide bomber wannabe out there.  I like the idea of bin Laden dead, but not if it gives his troops fresh heart for a fresh battle.



    It is my understanding that if he was shrouded in pig skin it would block his trip to paradise.  True or not, it would be a statement.  For all the hoopla surrounding things, it would almost have to be public and/or documentable.   Otherwise there woudl be those who would still bring out the thought that BinLaden was hiding in the north of palestine or the hills of Afghanistan.
     i am going to feel stupid for a moment (nothing new here) but wasn't BinLaden part of those who were considered allies when the former Soviet Union stretched a field exercise into Afghanistan?  if so, that could explain hesitation to take him out prior to 9/11.

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 5:02:52 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

And if George Bush hasn't gotten Bin Laden and al qeada what makes anyone think Obama will do it?
I just don't think Obama is "tough enough" to be president when it comes to things like that.
At least McCain said; "I will go after Bin Laden, I will get him!"

Ok, now that's a different point entirely.

Obama isn't tough enough to take out a pizza, let alone a terrorist.  That's a given.


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 6:57:59 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Yeah, Nuremberg was such an abysmal failure, look at how well the Reich used that to their publicity advantage, and regained all their support and power.


Because nothing deters a terrorist like putting his spiritual leader in jail.

quote:

Abdel-Rahman’s imprisonment has become a rallying point for Islamic militants around the world, including Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. In 1997, members of his group Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya conducted two attacks against European visitors to Egypt, including the massacre of 58 tourists at Deir el-Bahri in Luxor. In addition to killing women and children, the attackers mutilated a number of bodies and distributed leaflets throughout the scene demanding Rahman’s release


quote:

Or did you mean on the 'we don't need to learn from no steeenking history' planet?




And if there's one thing we've learned from the last eight years, it's that the right model for fighting terrorism is how we fought Nazi Germany in WWII and how we prosecuted Holocaust criminals afterwards.


And that little bit of dishonest fakery takes you right off the table as far as having anything worthwhile to contribute.


Care to back that charge up with some facts?


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:16:48 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		The fact is that neither the article on Obama, or I said anything about WWII miltary tactics being a great way to pursue terrorists... you made that up out of straw to avoid addressing what Obama actually said about trials being preferrable to Clinton's assassination order.


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:29:27 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		"Obama: I refuse to be lectured."
Oh, he's not going to be lectured to now that he's opted out of public funding like he said he *wouldn't* do.
They haven't even had the DNC yet and he's already flip-flopping!
He's really selling out now.
He's going to be someone's Corporate Lapdog!
3M Corp; "Fetch Obama!"
Exon/Mobil; "Roll Over Obama!"
Haliburton Corp; "Go get that stick Obama!"
What a fucking hypocrite!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:33:55 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The fact is that neither the article on Obama, or I said anything about WWII miltary tactics being a great way to pursue terrorists... you made that up out of straw to avoid addressing what Obama actually said about trials being preferrable to Clinton's assassination order.




Bullshit.  I addressed the point about trials (TWICE) by referring to the example of Abdul-Rahman.  As to my remarks about WWII tactics... Let me get this straight.  You accues ME of being ignorant of history

quote:

Or did you mean on the 'we don't need to learn from no steeenking history' planet?


all the while continuing some lame-ass defense of Obama's ridiculous analogy of fighting suicidal jihadists with Nuremberg-style courts, and in response I point out (sarcastically, I admit) that one can learn from history, but one needs to be a little careful about what lessons one draws...?

And somehow this is dishonesty on MY part?


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:35:27 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Obama: I refuse to be lectured."
Oh, he's not going to be lectured to now that he's opted out of public funding like he said he *wouldn't* do.
They haven't even had the DNC yet and he's already flip-flopping!
He's really selling out now.
He's going to be someone's Corporate Lapdog!
3M Corp; "Fetch Obama!"
Exon/Mobil; "Roll Over Obama!"
Haliburton Corp; "Go get that stick Obama!"
What a fucking hypocrite!

Now, now, popeye....

Selling out will be when he takes the "corporate lapdog" metaphor and rolls out his own line of T-shirts a-la "Curious George".


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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:35:49 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Obama: I refuse to be lectured."
Oh, he's not going to be lectured to now that he's opted out of public funding like he said he *wouldn't* do.
They haven't even had the DNC yet and he's already flip-flopping!
He's really selling out now.
He's going to be someone's Corporate Lapdog!
3M Corp; "Fetch Obama!"
Exon/Mobil; "Roll Over Obama!"
Haliburton Corp; "Go get that stick Obama!"
What a fucking hypocrite!
Your inclusion of Haliburton in this little drama was a bit ironic, don't you think?

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:38:27 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Your inclusion of Haliburton in this little drama was a bit ironic, don't you think?



That wasn't a little drama. It was tragedy on a grand scale  .

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:41:47 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Yes, its a fact the democrats conveniently gloss over. The planning and training for the 9-11 attacks took place under CLINTON's watch.



       Yep.  It did.

      Of course, there are a few things that get glossed over the other way, DA.  What might the Republicans have been up to during the late 90's, in the thrall of their new majority?  A savage partisan attack against a sitting president.  How many briefing papers stayed on the desk a bit longer while he read something from the lawyers?   What notes might he have made in the margins if he hadn't been dodging the flung poo of the dick-swingers in the House? 

       You seem to enjoy analogies to active military service.  If the O3 pilot of a kajillion dollar airplane was the subject of constant criminal investigations, how long would he be trusted to keep landing on the giggitygillion dollar boat?  Somebody is going to rightly decide that he just doesn't have the sort of focus he needs.  He might fuck up badly.  Presidents aren't replaced with a trip to the paint shop, though.

       Call it blame, history, or water under the bridge, there is plenty to go around.  Saying 9/11 was Bill Clinton's fault is bullshit.

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:48:48 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Obama: I refuse to be lectured."
Oh, he's not going to be lectured to now that he's opted out of public funding like he said he *wouldn't* do.
They haven't even had the DNC yet and he's already flip-flopping!
He's really selling out now.
He's going to be someone's Corporate Lapdog!
3M Corp; "Fetch Obama!"
Exon/Mobil; "Roll Over Obama!"
Haliburton Corp; "Go get that stick Obama!"
What a fucking hypocrite!
Your inclusion of Haliburton in this little drama was a bit ironic, don't you think?


Not at all!
Haliburton is going to need a lapdog when Bush leaves.
They don't care who takes their money.
And now that Obama's going to be taking corporate money he won't need all those $20 donations will he?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/19/2008 7:50:25 PM >

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 7:51:01 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

all the while continuing some lame-ass defense of Obama's ridiculous analogy of fighting suicidal jihadists with Nuremberg-style courts, and in response I point out (sarcastically, I admit) that one can learn from history, but one needs to be a little careful about what lessons one draws...?

And somehow this is dishonesty on MY part?



Feel free to call it what you like,  fabricating something that was never said in order to argue against it, instead of addressing what was actually said, is in fact intellectual dishonesty.

What was actually written in the OP article was that Obama refused to say how he would fight suicidal jihadists.

He also (in specific reference to the the existing 'dead or alive' order) opined that it may be better (albeit harder) to capture OBL alive for a trial, as was done in the past.

If you have a valid rebuttal to those points, why put forth a fabrication of something that wasn't even said?
.

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RE: Obama: I refuse to be lectured - 6/19/2008 8:01:58 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

all the while continuing some lame-ass defense of Obama's ridiculous analogy of fighting suicidal jihadists with Nuremberg-style courts, and in response I point out (sarcastically, I admit) that one can learn from history, but one needs to be a little careful about what lessons one draws...?

And somehow this is dishonesty on MY part?



Feel free to call it what you like, 


YOU called it that.

quote:

fabricating something that was never said in order to argue against it, instead of addressing what was actually said, is in fact intellectual dishonesty.


I was responding to YOU, not Obama.  YOU made the accusation that I was ignorant of history. 

quote:

What was actually written in the OP article was that Obama refused to say how he would fight suicidal jihadists.


Funny, that.

quote:

He also (in specific reference to the the existing 'dead or alive' order) opined that it may be better (albeit harder) to capture OBL alive for a trial, as was done in the past.


And I disagree.  Cf. Abdul-Rahman.

quote:

f you have a valid rebuttal to those points, why put forth a fabrication of something that wasn't even said?
.




How many times are you going to raise this strawman?  Are you even reading my replies?

To answer your question, yes, goddamn it, I have a rebuttal to those points -- they're in my prior post, for a second time, in case you missed it on the first go-round.  How mahy times are you going to ignore it?

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