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RE: Battle for submission - 6/30/2008 6:16:02 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I have not read all your posts in this thread, erin, so hopefully my thoughts are not contrary to what you are presenting.

Much of what you say, I agree with and it is how my relationship works (much to my frustration on rare occasions).  I cringe when I read the word "should" though.  I don't like the idea that everyone's D/s or M/s relationship should or should not look like something.  I will try to put aside my distaste for that word and respond to my thoughts on the OP and how it works in my relationship.

I have a chemical imbalance in my brain that causes me to go through boughts of depression every few years or so.  As a result, I struggle with negative thinking on a regular basis.  I have been in relationships with only one person with the knowledge, skill and the will to call me on this and hold me accountable to get out of this mindset.  Finding that was critical for me in order to want to submit to that person.

For me it isn't about being a test of wills or a battle for my submission.  It is about struggling against a character trait that has negative consequences on me and my relationships.  Many times I don't even realize that I am slipping into this mindset until he calls me on it.  The frustrating part for me is that I wish at times he would be even more of a hard ass in making me open up to him and get back to where I need to be, but he won't.  He points it out and then waits for me to do the work to get back where he wants me.  He will help, but I have to reach out first. 

While some people may actually mean "battle" when they talk about this, I don't think that is the connotation for everyone.  I also think that if two people get together and they enjoy this struggle and it fulfills them and gets them off, then I am not sure why they shouldn't do it.  I am sure there are people out there that enjoy this type of thing, just like I know there are people out there that really enjoy negative drama (and that just boggles my mind).  They wouldn't fit in my relationship, but I am sure that they may fit with someone out there.

To me, submission is doing someone else's will.  How you get there, what motivates someone to get there and how you feel doing it is going to vary, but in the end if you are doing someone else's will instead of your own, then you are submitting in my opinion.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Battle for submission - 6/30/2008 7:04:56 PM   
Abraxus


Posts: 56
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline 		you can repay Me with a few extra gobbles this week. WEG

_____________________________

Master Sage

"There is no sacred law than that of my own."
~unknown

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Battle for submission - 6/30/2008 7:42:52 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Abraxus)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Battle for submission - 6/30/2008 8:03:59 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		I love all these thought provoking threads you create!

I am one of 'those' submissives who is strong.  I am strong willed, strong minded, and opinionated. I have a brain and know how to use it. I am not; however, one of 'those' who require one to TAKE control.  I need one who compels me to submit.  By a look or touch or word.  Lord knows I do not need or want a relationship where it is a battleground... been there, done that.

Of course, the occassional 'taking' is extraordinarily hot.  It is not something I want everyday. 

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Battle for submission - 6/30/2008 10:05:22 PM   
lovewithoutfear


Posts: 153
Joined: 7/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

 Having someone hand you only half of what you want is no bargain if you have an opportunity to work for it and get all of what you want.


THANK you for writing of a Dominant "working for it" as an -opportunity.-  There are opportunities for growth and change (which take work) on both sides of the slash.

I believe some resistance is normal, not equivalent to power struggle, and doesn't make someone "not submissive."  Our culture trains us for personal agency and overcoming that training is not easy.

I think what many girls who want to be taken, overpowered, outsmarted etc. really want is to know that their Dom cares enough about them to invest energy into them.  That's not to say that there aren't better ways to accomplish that.

(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Battle for submission - 6/30/2008 10:31:42 PM   
lovewithoutfear


Posts: 153
Joined: 7/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic


I am one of 'those' submissives who is strong.  I am strong willed, strong minded, and opinionated. I have a brain and know how to use it. I am not; however, one of 'those' who require one to TAKE control.  I need one who compels me to submit.  By a look or touch or word.  Lord knows I do not need or want a relationship where it is a battleground...


Yes. If I resist, and he can bring me into line with a look, a touch or a word, he's got that special something I want, and then the last thing I ever want to do is displease him. He knows he can compel me easily, this confidence shows, and I know I can trust him. So I can, and want to, submit to him.

If I resist, and he does not appear to notice or care, is inconsistent OR feels he has to argue the point with me, then my resistance and his lack of confidence/skill together have created a battleground instead of a power exchange.

This can happen at different times in the same relationship.




(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 5:41:19 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

If I want my Dominant to do some taking, I have to give him that first inch...


I liked that spanklette...could you expand on it??

(in reply to lovewithoutfear)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 5:46:45 AM   
nhite


Posts: 85
Joined: 8/28/2007
Status: offline 		i like how you worded this!   it says a lot i never found the words for.  

i have to say that when i met someone who was compatible in the ways i was searchign for, much to his and my surprise, i went to absolute pudding submissive (as in during our 3 hour first conversation EVER, i was completely open and his if he took),   and never had a clue i had done it.  yes i still kept my playfullness and there is one area where i am very uncertain so i tend to ask a often to make sure i still get teh same answer and what a thrill the time time he answered me "i already told you"   not only did it mean the answer stayed the same, but that i couldnt manipulate him in the little askign game.  

if not for the experience of having met him i would so be doubtful i even could be submissive so i learned its really not impossible and that my inner sub has no problem recognizing her dom.   since the circumstances made it unviable fo rpursuit, i hope he isnt the only one i ever respond to :(  

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

ok... this will surely earn me the ire of a lot of folks..

I'm one of those who said "I want a dominant who can outthink me." However, it's not about him being able to "outsmart" me into submission. It's about me not being able to manipulate him.

I submit because it's something I want to do with him. At the same time, I will also admit to struggling against the ability to manipulate. In fact, as much as I may dislike this about me, if I can manipulate someone into doing what I want (and I'm VERY good at that), then who is controlling whom? I wanted and looked for someone I couldn't do that to.

If you can't tell from the general length of my responses, I like discourse. I ENJOY talking about difficult subjects in great detail. I am thrilled when I find someone I can do this with. After years of living with someone (my ex) and having there be an ever-growing list of topics we had to not discuss because we were so opposed to each other, I wanted someone I could have these conversations with. That was important to me. I knew I wanted someone who was able to do that. That meant that I really DID have to do the whole bantering thing back and forth. I wanted to see how that person handled stress and how well he could take a stance, develop it and converse without resorting to anger driven accusations and insults.

So yes, I suppose I'm one of those folks you talk about. Although, while I don't fight him in order to be "bested." I do think he's the best person I've ever met... and if it took all that to be sure of this before I became emotionally invested in him, then well... that's how I was going to handle things.

As far as the physical "besting" goes...That's not a part of who I am - so I don't do it. And frankly, like you, I don't get it either.

juliet

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 5:54:44 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

if not for the experience of having met him i would so be doubtful i even could be submissive so i learned its really not impossible and that my inner sub has no problem recognizing her dom.   since the circumstances made it unviable for pursuit.
quote:



I do well understand that nhite. Very nice post.

(in reply to nhite)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 5:56:14 AM   
VioletAshes


Posts: 101
Joined: 1/16/2008
Status: offline 		Fabulous post - I entirely agree.

_____________________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm not like other girls that you know
but I believe I'm worth coming home to"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(in reply to fluffyswitch)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 6:02:47 AM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		this girl thinks that the "take me and make me" aditude is mostly from SAMs or kinksters...NOT from lifestylers or M/s and D/s...
when this girl was single, she enjoyed a lover to "take" her and still enjoys rape type sences but that is NOT a part of this girls 24/7 M/s relationship...its a fun side note....
Just this girls two cents
Master Dragons slave

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 6:03:42 AM   
nhite


Posts: 85
Joined: 8/28/2007
Status: offline 		i think for me it's sometimes a case of affirming the answer is still the same one.   that yes he really does mean what he said and i like to touch that now and again that its still really there -- a little affirmation/reminder.  if there's a time where i have a long-term situatino and / or collar i think that tangible reminder will serve me well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovewithoutfear

I think what many girls who want to be taken, overpowered, outsmarted etc. really want is to know that their Dom cares enough about them to invest energy into them.  That's not to say that there aren't better ways to accomplish that.


(in reply to lovewithoutfear)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 6:20:02 AM   
hisdarlinsweetie


Posts: 55
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		It is not about being bested, but being compatible, isn't it?  I possess quailites that I find important (i.e. intellect, passion, empathy, humor, etc).  There are qualities that I need for my partner to have, especially if I am going to submit to him.  There are characteristics that I really respect, such as intelligence, stregnth in character, decisiveness, confidence, passion, ect.  If I don't respect someone, I can't submit to him.  It's not a competition between my Sir and I.  I respect him, in large part, because he possesses the qualities that I think are important.  It's easy to submit to someone who I respect and find attractive.  Does that make me less submissive because I use personality traits that I find important to screen who I spend my time with?

(in reply to VioletAshes)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 6:30:23 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

If you are a submissive and your submission is what fulfills you, why on earth would you need someone to fight you to get it from you? It should be something that comes from you willingly....out of respect, out of trust, out of joy, out of your own need to surrender...but not because someone coerced it from you, battled you for it, outsmarted you, threatened you into it, placated, bribed or bartered with you to get it. That's not submission...that's being the loser of the battle....and there shouldn't have had to be a battle in the first place.


Is that the only true way?

Compare the same thing to those who consent to being slapped/whipped/etc etc as punishment for being disobedient.
That is a battle. A battle of wills maybe or even just a test. Are people who do this not 'true' either?

Are they more 'true' of a submissive because that is their agreement?

Any form of stubborness (either within intial stages of meeting or with a long term bdsm partner)is just that...a denying of 'rights' being given to another (physically or mentally) and often it takes a nudge (mental or a whip) to / as a reminder of just who is in charge and who isn't.

Not all of *us (submissives) submit in some uncreative or immediate version of puppy-dog love mentality. Maybe it is because of circumstance (be it fear of commitment, trust, economics, location, and a million other issues).

To say someone who doesn't submit quickly or they shouldn't at all is judgemental and pious. 

To some it is a fight because it is a just plain inner battle of one's conscience, in others who knows what varied reasoning they may have.

Maybe it was as simple of not being sure if the person is the right choice...

too many reasons, too little time.

To some, trust and respect is not easily given quickly, to some it is.  Thus, with some of the ones who do trust and respect quickly, we soon see them here after knowing that person a few weeks and the are posting that they were 'used' or 'abused' or they never heard from said person again.




< Message edited by came4U -- 7/1/2008 6:31:31 AM >

(in reply to nhite)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 6:34:33 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Came4U,
You are so far off the mark and have twisted what I have said into something so foreign that it doesn't even begin to resemble what I put out there. 4 pages of responses and you are the first to see it that way....I think we must be speaking different languages.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 7/1/2008 6:38:04 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 6:36:06 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		k, let me re-read your post again.

brb lol

quote:

I fail to see where submissiveness comes into those scenarios. That's not being dominated...that's being coerced. That's not submission...that's losing a battle. D/s and M/s relationships should not be battlegrounds where one has to fight to win or lose.  


ok, so this is with a Dominant who a gal hasn't met yet or if so, hasn't 'played' or whathaveyou. (I assume).

I stand with my statement then.

If two people, choose to engage as such...whether it turns out or not, then why does it matter?

Again, compare it to one who has already submitted.  A time may come when she fights his decision/power and it becomes physical (whip, chains).  Is she then no longer a submissive or never was a submissive? NO, she is what she is...and up to the Dominant if he chooses to play her game, whip her, or walk. 

If she has to be coerced in any matter, is she less of a submissive?


< Message edited by came4U -- 7/1/2008 6:47:25 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 6:55:10 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		I cannot respect someone who is obtuse. Be they dominant or submissive.

CD

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 7:01:07 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		No, it's targetted more to those who are in committed relationships where there is a constant power struggle going on.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 7:04:08 AM   
ServingGirrl


Posts: 115
Joined: 10/10/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		This may sound simplistic but, surely, if there is a 'battle for submission' then ultimately there IS no submission, merely a victor and a vanquished at the end.   As a slave i give my submission freely else it is not submission.   As a switch i expect the same from my own slaves and if there was to be a battle then i would consider i had already lost it by judging and choosing my slave poorly in the first place.   A submissive who wishes to battle is not submissive.   A dominant who must battle to gain submission is not dominant, merely domineering.

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 7:05:18 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		oohh ok gottcha then.

Forget what I said then, I guess it doesn't count.

I guess in that instance then, it is up to the dominant whether he will continue or drop it.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 80
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