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RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 7:34:22 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovewithoutfear

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic


I am one of 'those' submissives who is strong.  I am strong willed, strong minded, and opinionated. I have a brain and know how to use it. I am not; however, one of 'those' who require one to TAKE control.  I need one who compels me to submit.  By a look or touch or word.  Lord knows I do not need or want a relationship where it is a battleground...


Yes. If I resist, and he can bring me into line with a look, a touch or a word, he's got that special something I want, and then the last thing I ever want to do is displease him. He knows he can compel me easily, this confidence shows, and I know I can trust him. So I can, and want to, submit to him.

If I resist, and he does not appear to notice or care, is inconsistent OR feels he has to argue the point with me, then my resistance and his lack of confidence/skill together have created a battleground instead of a power exchange.


Not to nit-pick but again, is this not where part of the problem comes in?  You note that if he feels he has to argue the point with you, then it may be an indication of his lack of skill running up against your resistance.  But if you agreed to submit, why are you resisting?  And why does arguing a point, trying to show you in a reasonable and rational manner why you are wrong in your resistance and how it goes against what you agreed to when you agreed to submit, make him lacking in skill or confidence rather than show you as being the one who is not submitting?
You say that you would be more comfortable with "a look" or "a word" or "a touch" at those times but I would be willing to bet that there are other submissives who agree with you right up to that point...they want to be shown how and why they are wrong by someone intelligent enough to do so.
And the confusing thing is that this can occur within the same submissive, as you yourself note below and in many instances, the submissive expects the dominant to know just which time calls for which response.

quote:

This can happen at different times in the same relationship.


< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 7/1/2008 7:41:39 AM >

(in reply to lovewithoutfear)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 7:57:02 AM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

If I want my Dominant to do some taking, I have to give him that first inch...


I liked that spanklette...could you expand on it??


In literal terms, I just meant giving initial consent to whatever (it doesn't necessarily have to be something physical)...and he'll take it and run. So, I give him the first inch and he takes a mile.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 9:00:13 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

So, I give him the first inch and he takes a mile


you got more than an inch....and you probably gave him his first real smile

(in reply to spanklette)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 2:40:38 PM   
AzureShards


Posts: 7
Joined: 6/27/2008
Status: offline 		Hi,

I'm new to this site, but I find this conversation rather thought provoking.  

I'm submissive...  which to people who have just met me or don't know me intimately seems completely unbelievable.   I am a strong, confident, opinionated, and driven woman.  I work hard, study hard, play hard.  I have been told I am intimidating, ((often by men)) which I personally find worry some and perplexing.   I'm a very confident and in control person... which is exactly what makes me submissive.  Some times I just absolutly need to give all of it to some one else.  To put down my self imposed burdens and trust completely in some one else.

I don't think I'll ever be able to be a slave, or a 24/7 submissive.  But I do need a strong some one to take over from time to time.  

I think I may come off some times, with my confidence and opinions (( often perceived as arrogance )) as a "make me" sort.  I'm also of the opinion that "I may be submissive, that doesn't mean I'm your submissive."  I will not give that much power and trust and respect to just any body.  I will not fight over it either.   I agree that it shouldn't be a struggle.   I don't want that.   I want to know them and to be able to trust them, so I can hand it over gladly and with complete faith in them.

I'll admit doing so isn't always easy for me, I was raised to  rely on no one but myself.  And to often this has proven to be absolutly true.   Trust isn't easy, and beginings will probably be hard for me. 

I will need some one who is strong but who is also caring to help me through that.  I will need some one intelligent, who will know when to take control and when not to.   That may put people off,  but as I said I don't think I'd be able to be a slave.  There are parts of my life that I need to have control over,  but in a good relarionship, with a good dominate partner eventually he should know me well enough to know when to take over and help me be stronger for my own dam good.   I tend to take on too much, for myself and the people around me. 

I guess I'm still exploring what it means to be submissive for me.  But I agree with a lot of what people said.  I don't want a constant struggle.  I want to submit, to give all that to the right person as a gift, gladly and freely.   I like what several people said earlier....   I think the right person will be able to trigger my submission with out a struggle, with the tone of voice, an expression , the raise of  an eyebrow, or simple body language.   The right person will inspire my submission simply by being who he is, and letting me be who I am.

< Message edited by AzureShards -- 7/1/2008 2:44:33 PM >

(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 3:25:16 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

If we replace the biased word "squash" with something like "overcome", then I think this behavior is entirely normal. In the early stages of  relationships I'll give a submissive a task she probably doesn't want to do. I expect some internal conflict between the desire to submit and not wanting to surrender that little piece, and it may take a while. She may try to get out of it, but I won't let her and all I have to do is wait until she gives in. I'm not doing any squashing, though maybe she is. I see this as a necessary exercise we must go through to get deeper into the relationship; without it we're just scratching the surface.

Similarly, the comments about wanting dominants who can outthink them may come from those who are used to outthinking and manipulating others. In that case, they need someone who can see through their little games and even beat them at it, and wouldn't respect or submit to someone who couldn't do it. I know it's fun to see a submissive do what I want even after I've told her how I'm manipulating her, so I'm assuming it must be just as much fun to submit knowing you've been manipulated.

So I think strong submissives know they have power and simply want someone who has more. Nothing wrong with that.


Yer so cool. ~smiling~

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 4:59:42 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

... Once I determined that Sir is a man who possesses the characteristics that make him appealing to me as a dominant partner and decided to commit to a relationship with him....why then would there be any need for me to ... challenge him?


Mist, please don't misunderstand... I couldn't agree more that a dominant and submissive are partners and should work together for the success of the relationship.  Once a dynamic has been established, it shouldn't become a battleground of wills where the dominant constantly has to "win" submission.

However, I do think it's important to clarify that in some established D/s relationships, some challenge is desired and expected.  It just has to be the right kind of challenge and presented in an appropriate way.

Recently Firm wrote the following with regard to our relationship:

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

... part of my expectation in a relationship with Treasure is that she be strong enough, honest enough and smart enough to challenge me when she believes that I'm "off the deep end" or incorrect in some thought, action, or belief.

Is that a comfortable thing, to be challenged by my sub?

No, it's not always a pleasant feeling to be challenged, but growth and greater understanding generally comes from resolving challenges and differing points of view.  I realize that I'm' not (yet ) perfect, but I also believe that it's much more likely that I can achieve something close to it if I have at least a second point of view that I can value.

To me, that is an important part of what I looked for in a sub: the willingness and ability to acknowledge my "supremacy of position", yet comfortable and secure enough in themselves and a relationship to be able to confirm and or question me (in a tactful, respectful and caring manner) about my beliefs, methods and thinking.


Despite how it might sound, our relationship is anything but a battlefield.  I've yet to challenge Firm on much... in fact, I honestly can't think of any particular thing at this moment.   But the point is that, even though I've submitted to him and deferred to his authority in this relationship, there may be legitimate times when I'm going to challenge him.

But I don't really see it happening much if at all... I think he's much closer to perfect that he lets on.  

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 7/1/2008 5:01:55 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 7:50:44 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		There is a vast difference between what you describe and willful defiance in order to get a dominant to force you into submission though.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Battle for submission - 7/1/2008 10:45:40 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		From my experience, it has been one of two things. 

People who need some proof of why they should submit or an excuse to bottom and not submit.  The first reason has had any number or causes, like damage, ego, inexperience, too many books.   I am not referring to the wrestler types.  They are looking for a skill.

I no longer waste my time trying to convince a sub to sub.  I am not applying for the job of unpaid pro domme or as I tend to say, a blow up domme. 

I am (when I meet someone) looking for a compatible person to enjoy mutually fulfilling activities.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 7:28:04 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SurrenderForMe
unpaid pro domme


That's an interesting term.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to SurrenderForMe)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 7:30:39 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

There is a vast difference between what you describe and willful defiance in order to get a dominant to force you into submission though.


Exactly.  I see what treasure spoke of and Firm's description of it as part of a natural interplay between two humans, regardless of the fact that one is submissive and one is dominant.  The fact that they are and that both of them respect not only their own position but their partner's position is clearly laid out in what Firm writes.

Not willful defiance but honest challenge at an appropriate time and in an appropriate manner. 

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 7:55:13 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		It would seem that some have perceived what I have said suggests that if your submission is without defiance and that struggle for power that it must be boring, mindless,without thought, without spirit, fire or feistiness, that there can never be disagreement or discussion...that it must be on some robotic level. That is not at all what I was attempting to convey.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 8:01:48 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It would seem that some have perceived what I have said suggests that if your submission is without defiance and that struggle for power that it must be boring, mindless,without thought, without spirit, fire or feistiness, that there can never be disagreement or discussion...that it must be on some robotic level. That is not at all what I was attempting to convey.


I know that.  And I think that many get it.  As I said, I think Firm put it nicely.

There are always going to be some though who challenge their dominant regularly.  When it is done for reasonable reasons but on an ongoing basis, my question is "why did you pick a dominant that you have to challenge on a regular, frequent basis".  But then there are those who do so on a regular basis, not for reasonable reasons...though they claim it to be so...but because they can rationalize to themselves that he/she is not dominating them in the way he promised when in reality, it is they who are not submitting in the way they promised but they refuse to see that.  There are also those who challenge as part of the dynamic they have worked out with a dominant but again, that is not willful defiance in contrast to what they have agreed to but rather willful, NEGOTIATED, defiance.  Not my thing but for some, it works.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 9:25:59 AM   
bashfulhuck


Posts: 119
Joined: 5/26/2008
Status: offline 		I understand what you are talking about CreativeDominant. I for one am not the type of submissive that will try to make my Domina force my submission from me in life.
I gave her that, or some who were there when our relationship went from friendship to M/s, she took it from me. So there is no question in our lives together as to who the Owner is and who the slave is. In scene play, I might get rather "playful" sometimes, but that is because it is pleasing to her for me to be a bit bratty in scene. However, I also know when to not behave like that. She was flogging me Saturday night, and I was feeling rather bratty, so I looked her directly in the eyes in a public dungeon, and had a little smile on my face. She looked me straight in the eyes, and told me in a very loud voice, that I had better not do it, and that I needed to keep my mouth shut. All thoughts of being a brat flew right from my mind at that instant, because she communicated to me that I was in danger of going too far, and I turned back on the cross.
In our general lives together, she allows me my opinion, and allows me to voice it, but with the understanding that the final decision is hers alone to make, and that I trust her to make the best one for us.

Peace and serenity,
bashful

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 12:04:25 PM   
MasterDragon1963


Posts: 51
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		On the other side of the coin I see a similar perspective of the paradox. The attitude of "are you tough enough to make me" is found more in subs than slaves. I feel because many slaves understand something. It is not by me that your test in life shall be judge, but by yourself. If I place something hot in her hand, it is not meerly a force between my action and her responce, but between her instincts to jerk back, and her desire to hold still. Not all forces are external, and not all challenges are for us to choose.

Master Dragon

_____________________________

It is not enough to walk thru the fire, but to embrace it, the flesh may be burned, but the pureness of the spirit shall endure forever.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 1:01:51 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		(((((((mist))))))

Just seen this post and had to think some before responding. And being to lazy to read everyones responses, I wanted to respond to only you on this.

After reading your twice and should again I am sure. But for now I have to agree with you. Just since being on this site alone, I've seen this. Have even been accused of this personally. Though to me it was only because I would now bow before them from the start.

On the second go around of reading your post I thought perhaps it WAS true about me as well. I never really considered the aspects that... that was what I was doing. I think I was just trying to make sure they was the right one for me as they was making sure I was for them as well. I didn't really see it as a struggle for power or anything like that. I just seen it as one trying to hard to fast to take the power I was not yet ready to give to someone I wasn't totally sure of yet.

Then I now look back at the relation I have had with him over the past 2 plus years. I wonder if ours didn't start off the same way and to me sometimes slip back into it as I start questioning my submission/slavery to him and with him because of my own insecurities at times. I get somewhat stubborn. I do get a little mouthy. Question him and things about our relationship and dynamics.

Before reading your post I never considered it a battle for power. And I am not sure it even is still. But it doesn't make me rethink somethings and gives me something else to talk to Master about. Because the one thing I agreed to with him was he owns me. Mind, heart and soul. He's taken my submission and turned it and me into the slave he so desired. So I do see it as a battle as much as I think of it was making sure things are going smooth for him. Making sure that I am sure of myself. Are there improvements I need to be made aware of? If so what? Things like that nature.

Ok I got off track there for a few. I still am not sure if I battled or still try to battle. But I thank you for bringing this to my attention so I can regroup and make sure if I am battling.... I stop doing it before I screw up a great thing here.

Jessica

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 1:06:15 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Jessica, it's great to see you! Hope you're doing well.
I'm glad you're getting something out of the post....if you have time the whole thread really is worth the read. Some folks have just said some really great things and added more depth.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 1:19:30 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

my battle was with trusting that this man was different than all that.  My struggle was with myself - afraid to let go, afraid to trust, afraid to admit he was right and I wasn't.

He saw the capability and worked with it.  I am enormously grateful. 

One thought on the word "surrender."  He doesn't allow me to use it when conversing with or referring to him.  One surrenders to something one has preferred to win - like a war.  I willingly gave myself over, because I wanted what was on the other side, and I knew it was best for me.  Not because I had ceded to it. 



Taking erins advice and reading thru this thread, I'm glad I did. Running across owned's post pretty much says it for me.  I know even more so the battle wasn't for power over me. The "battle" was to see what I didn't know was there and Master seen it. He set out to make sure I seen it all. Not just some... or what I thought he might want to see. He wanted me to see it... know it... want it... love it....need it....live for. And I very much do. Master met a submissive.... that today... he refers to as his slave. So it was not a battle for control... power... but knowledge and release for me... so that he could have what I had to give him... willingly.

< Message edited by truesub4u -- 7/2/2008 1:21:22 PM >

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Battle for submission - 7/2/2008 6:54:30 PM   
WhatUrSeeking


Posts: 49
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		This thread is fantastic. This is a question I have often wondered about. Since I am a Dom I could only answer this question from the outside looking in. Instead I decided to read the entire thread and to gain the insight of the submissives who posted here. Thank you all. While it was not your intent you have served me well. I believe the thoughts expressed in this thread will help me to become a better Dom.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Battle for submission - 7/3/2008 4:15:01 AM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		Over the years I've heard countless submissives and recently seen several instances of such on the boards where they say things like "I am a strong submissive and I need a really strong dominant to TAKE control". Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. Some want a dominant who can outthink them and thereby outsmart them into submission. Some will say that their willful refusal is a test of their dominant's power. Some will go so far as to say that if their dominant fails such a test and they are the ones to "win out' in the end, it clearly indicates that the dominant is either not really a dominant or is too weak of one for them.
 
some of these statements like... Some want a dominant who can outthink them - i would totally agree with, as has been said already.  infact theres a thread about having to 'dum down' and that isnt a healthy thing to have to do atall.
 
others like squash their resistance and willful refusal is a test of their dominant's power is, possibly, just newbies being newbies who have this 'impression' that Dominants actually want that much of a challenge.  or as one Dominant friend told me, very wearily once, there are some women who are not sub atall, but have issues within them, where they want to be treated like crap, beaten to hell and are using D types to exorcise these issues, push the D beyond endurance before swaggering off to their next victim.
 
being afraid of losing your own identity when you first start out is totally normal but eventually we learn that in the right hands that just isnt the case - and i guess they will too.



_____________________________

even doves have pride (Prince)

(in reply to fluffyswitch)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Battle for submission - 7/3/2008 6:03:01 AM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3
Over the years I've heard countless submissives and recently seen several instances of such on the boards where they say things like "I am a strong submissive and I need a really strong dominant to TAKE control".  
being afraid of losing your own identity when you first start out is totally normal but eventually we learn that in the right hands that just isnt the case - and i guess they will too.


this slave was once a switch and thought that she needed a "strong Dominant to take her submission" ...and as life went on its merry way she met Master..and realized it wasnt a strong Dominant to take her submission she needed, it was a strong Master that makes her want to give her submission to him.


_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to lally3)
Profile   Post #: 100
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