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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 12:06:51 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
If you'd have been more tactful in your response to me, I might have been willing to listen to what you had to say.  I may have even been willing to accept that I may have erred in judgment.  But I don't respond to venomous, hateful remarks from anyone. 


I fucking hate snake killers and I won't apologize for it. People who kill slow reproducing apex predators without bothering to learn how to deal with them safely and humanely do not get any tact from me.

quote:


Well since you have chosen to indirectly accuse me of lying and/or ignorance, I figured you'd be more than ready to state your qualifications.  As I said before, you came off as pretentious in your diatribe towards me.


A few people here do know my qualifications.  They are all laughing at you.


quote:


The number of calls and your qualifications doesn't pertain to me or my experiences.  I am actually educated beyond high school, and I am not an idiot.  It isn't that difficult to know whether a snake is venomous or not.  Cottonmouths are not that difficult to spot.


Really now?  So if I posted field photos of Agkistrodon and Nerodia, you would be able to identify each one accurately and immediately?  Of all of people I have ever trained in snake identification, the majority of them are absolutely sure that they can identify the venomous snakes of their region.  Average test performance, even for wildlife officers, is no better than chance odds with live specimens in clear plexiglass boxes on the table for leisurely viewing at close range. 

That's the first lesson they get to learn.  You think you can, but you can't, because there are too many close lookalikes. I can't say exactly how many people I've trained and tested over the years, but it's in the high three digits and could be up to four by now.  So yes, I absolutely do not believe the claim of anyone not keenly interested in and experienced with snakes who says they can reliably differentiate.  The people who say they can generally can't.  They most likely have never seen them side by side and they simply don't know how difficult it is to tell them apart when so many of the obvious visual characteristics are extremely similar - head shape, body shape, color and pattern to be specific.

quote:


Yeah and they aren't keeping them as pets are they?  So again what's your point?


Aren't they?  What is a pet, other than an animal held in private captivity?  The owner of the venom lab I'm talking about has a number of snakes that aren't on the venom line, but they are rare or beautiful and worth breeding in captivity.  It's situations like this, private people and hobbyists breeding rare animals, that has replenished zoo stock and preserved the gene pool while habitat is destroyed and wild populations dwindle.  If hobbyists and private keepers had not been breeding the San Francisco garter snake - as pets - that species would be in a whole lot more trouble now than it is.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 7/17/2008 12:08:34 PM >

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 12:54:55 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Najak started this by responding to my statement that I will shoot or kill any snake that comes near me.  She obviously is a snake lover and that really pissed her off.  ... Najak could have chosen to be tactful, but she decided to be sarcastic and spiteful.  Well I don't respond to that kind of attitude. 
Yes, I noticed that she was rude. Yes, knowing your confrontational nature I also understand that you do not respond well to that.
 
My advice is to ignore it. Sometimes it is wise to make allowances.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 1:01:59 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I was surprised at the amount of tissue damage involved in that particular bite!
Is that genis more poisonous than other types?


Crotalus horridus has five distinct venom typings, one of which is insanely high in neurotoxins, lab assays up to 37%, which is higher than the previous North American record holder C. scutulatus.  Flatlines have been reported in 45 minutes post-bite in individuals not predisposed to anaphylaxis by prior exposure.  The geographic distribution for that venom typing is the FL-GA-AL border area, extending up into some areas of GA.  A bit further north you start seeing more cytotoxins and fewer myotoxins and crotoxins, which translates to more localized tissue damage and less systemic effect. One of the big debates in envenomation protocol is pressure immobilization (PI), which is completely appropriate and incredibly helpful for a snake with significant neurotoxicity and minimal cytotoxicity, but inappropriate and potentially harmful if it's the other way around as the lymphatic wrap isolates and concentrates tissue-destroying toxins, increasing local effect.  How do you make general recommendations in a situation where a single species has five different venoms separated by overlapping geographic boundaries? 

It gets even more amusing with the Eastern diamondback, where two snakes in the same litter can express radically different toxins.  And there's also some species that do ontogenic (age related) shifts in the types of toxins they express, but only populations in environmental niches where the juvenile diet is substantially different from the adult diet.

quote:

They have a place called "Allegator Adventure" here that's a tourist attraction and some of those critters must weigh 1,000 pounds!


Nowhere near that much, despite what it may say on the zoo signs.  There's a lot of bad and inaccurate information floating around about what they weigh.  It's less than people think.  Fortunately it's easy to ask the big boys to walk out to a weighing platform as long as there is a chicken in it for them, so any zoo that invests in a livestock scale for cattle can get accurate weights on their specimens for veterinary purposes.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 1:24:18 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

I fucking hate snake killers and I won't apologize for it. People who kill slow reproducing apex predators without bothering to learn how to deal with them safely and humanely do not get any tact from me.


I didn't ask for an apology.  I simply stated that you missed a grand opportunity to educate someone who is so ignorant on the subject.  Imagine how many snakes you could have saved, but you chose another route.  Now since I don't have any more information than I entered this discussion with, I will have to be extra cautious when I venture into the great outdoors. 

quote:

A few people here do know my qualifications.  They are all laughing at you. 


I know and that really breaks me up inside. 

quote:

Really now?  So if I posted field photos of Agkistrodon and Nerodia, you would be able to identify each one accurately and immediately?  


Are you going to post photos of every snake in both genus?  If so, you're right I wouldn't be able to name everyone or even most of them.  I'm not a snake expert, and I never made that claim.  I said I know what a cottomouth looks like.  I'm aware that some water snakes resemble it.  But now you've put doubt in my mind. As I said previously, you missed a grand opportunity to explain it.  Now I am going to have to be extra cautious when I head outdoors.  So I will have to intensify my policy of "better safe than sorry." 

quote:

Aren't they?  What is a pet, other than an animal held in private captivity?   


Well let's see, according to Merriam-Webster:

1pet
Pronunciation: \ˈpet\
Function: noun
Etymology: perhaps back-formation from Middle English pety small.
Date: 1508
1 a: a pampered and usually spoiled child b: a person who is treated with unusual kindness or consideration : darling  2: a domesticated animal kept for pleasure rather than utility. If you'll note part two of the definition, an animal kept for utility is not a pet.     

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 7/17/2008 1:28:45 PM >

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 1:26:24 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		What is pressure immobilization? How does it work?
 
How about cutting some veins and spilling half your blood? Will that remove half of the poison? Or is that a bad idea?

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/17/2008 1:27:03 PM >

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 1:58:39 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER
As an owner of many pets and horses I tend to keep the snake population to about net zero, the only snakes allow around here are the black and garter ones to keep the mice down,the trails we ride have some copperheads and a few timber rattlers so a shot gun or revolver with snake shot is alway taken along...


If you are arrogant enough to think you can "allow" only certain species to exist not just in your immediate house and yard, but in the entire surrounding wild area, think again.  Species genocide either doesn't work or has nasty long term effects that will eventually bite you in the ass.  I know of some cattle ranchers who decided to dynamite all the rattlesnake dens and wipe out the species locally because they lost two or three head a year to snake bite.  They eventually succeeded after waging a vicious campaign for years, at which point they started losing two or three hundred head a year to broken legs.  The prairie dog population had competely exploded and the pastures were honeycombed with their tunnels to the point that livestock were constantly falling through and breaking legs. 

There was a hunting club that did the same thing.  Rodents eat the eggs of ground nesting birds.  So much for their expensively nurtured pheasant population.  When you break something in an ecosystem, you really can't replace it with something else.  You're just fucked.  There was an old woman who swallowed a fly, and that was bad enough, but swallowing a spider to eat the fly just created more problems than it solved.

Human beings are extremely dangerous; should I pre-emptively shoot them because they might possibly hurt me or my pets at some unspecified future time?  For that matter dogs are dangerous.  If you attack them, they might fight back.  I think I'll go shoot all the dogs I see, because they might possibly bite somebody who attacks them first.  That's a good idea. 

Garter snakes don't eat a lot of rodents in the wild, and when they are fed a rodent diet in captivity they tend to die early of fatty liver disease.  Black racers (Coluber constrictor) are indiscriminate in their dietary habits and the percentage of rodents they eat varies by locality.  Despite their taxonomic designation, they are not constrictors, making them poor candidates to take on any of the larger rodents.  Adult copperheads and timbers are dedicated rodent eaters, close to 100% of their diet in most regions.  So not brilliant choices.

You probably don't care, but snakes can survive extreme metabolic acidosis and hypoxia that would kill a mammal, and they don't die quickly even from mortal wounds.  They are as well innervated as any mammal and they do feel pain.  "Snake shot" is the worst thing you can shoot a snake with. 

Humane capture and relocation isn't that difficult, and leaving them alone is even easier.  If you want to keep your pets safe, train them properly, and keep them on well groomed, non cluttered areas of your own property in areas that do not attract snakes.  Going out into the woods and shooting snakes is not the most effective way to keep your pets safe, and it's also pretty fucking disgusting. My opinion of snake killers is somewhere lower than a bug's asshole, especially if they're going out and attacking animals in the wild.  I got the impression that was what you were doing, please feel free to correct this impression if it's wrong.

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 2:16:41 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I didn't ask for an apology.  I simply stated that you missed a grand opportunity to educate someone who is so ignorant on the subject.  Imagine how many snakes you could have saved, but you chose another route.  Now since I don't have any more information than I entered this discussion with, I will have to be extra cautious when I venture into the great outdoors. 


I've been at this for too many years to have any ability left to be tactful to people who are doing stupid things to the wildlife.  I can't stop assholes from trashing the wildlife no matter how hard I work at it.  There's just too many assholes.  People who choose to continue to be assholes when they know they could learn to be better than that are going to make those choices whether I'm nice to them or not. 

quote:

Are you going to post photos of every snake in both genus?  If so, you're right I wouldn't be able to name everyone or even most of them.  I'm not a snake expert, and I never made that claim.  I said I know what a cottomouth looks like.  I'm aware that some water snakes resemble it.  But now you've put doubt in my mind. As I said previously, you missed a grand opportunity to explain it.  Now I am going to have to be extra cautious when I head outdoors.  So I will have to intensify my policy of "better safe than sorry."


I did explain, and because I'm not particularly nice about laying out the facts, you decided to ignore them.  That's your problem.  If you want to be safe, the absolute safest thing to do is to give all snakes a wide, respectful berth.  The majority of snakebites in North America occur because the person attacked the snake on purpose.  If you do have a close encounter with a snake, you are safest if you do not escalate the level of violence and cause the snake to be not just nervous but terrified, hurting and fighting desperately for its life.  If you attack the snake and it bites you, you get what you deserve.  If you walk away from it or push it away gently with a stick instead of attacking, you are much safer.  So you get to choose your level of risk.  Is being a macho badass and attacking the snake instead of remaining calm and in control of the situation really worth the increased risk?

quote:

If you'll note part two of the definition, an animal kept for utility is not a pet.


So in your black and white world, an animal is either strictly utility or strictly pleasure, nothing in between?  Working in a venom lab, or owning one, means crappy pay, long hours and an insane amount of daily risk to life and limb.  Nobody today in this country does it unless the animals are a pleasure as well as a utility to them.  There are far better and safer ways to make a living.  

Pets do have utility on many levels, and working animals can also be pets.  The keeping of a wild animal is a significant responsibility, but it is not an impossible one to discharge with honor.  I do see some people abusing wild animals by keeping them inappropriately, but I also see a lot of people doing a damn fine job of using their animals to educate others, to contribute to science and to preserve the species.  Captivity and captive breeding may be the last and best hope for many species, and that does mean pets.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 2:27:03 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
What is pressure immobilization? How does it work?


Short form, it's a lymphatic (not arterial) tourniquet, like a support wrap for a sprained wrist.  A wide (4") compression bandage is used, such as an Ace bandage, and applied proximal to the bite to sequester venom in the local area to delay the onset of systemic symptoms.  Substantial delay can be achieved while the victim is rushed to the hospital for support care.  This is invaluable in the case of venoms that cause respiratory paralysis.  It is contraindicated in species whose venom produces significant local damage.
 
quote:

How about cutting some veins and spilling half your blood? Will that remove half of the poison? Or is that a bad idea?


Bad idea.  Very bad..  Binding on a cellular level takes place quickly enough that cut and suck is ineffective and is likely to significantly worsen patient morbidity and general outcome.  Surgical removal of affected tissue was a technique suggested by Glass some decades ago, but invariably worsens patient morbidity and mortality.  Eg, it's totally ineffective and will fuck you up.  Unfortunately some hospitals are still using the old protocols because they don't keep up with the literature on every rare medical condition.  Envenomation is actually a pretty rare medical condition and most doctors have not seen or managed a case, let alone read Dart's Medical Toxicology or White's Clinical Toxicology with the most modern updates. 

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 2:47:25 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
Short form, it's a lymphatic (not arterial) tourniquet, like a support wrap for a sprained wrist.  A wide (4") compression bandage is used, such as an Ace bandage, and applied proximal to the bite to sequester venom in the local area to delay the onset of systemic symptoms.  Substantial delay can be achieved while the victim is rushed to the hospital for support care.  This is invaluable in the case of venoms that cause respiratory paralysis.  It is contraindicated in species whose venom produces significant local damage.
Okay, I get that. Of course it is no use to me, as I being a lay person do not know whether it is indicated or contraindicated. I suppose it is only useful in case of a bite in the limbs? How about a bite in the neck, head, belly or chest?
 
I suppose that staying passive or running the marathon when bitten is also dependent upon indication or contraindication? I was once stung in a finger by a wasp that I had not noticed that sat on the same berry that I wanted to harvest. That hurt a LOT. I was on my bike and about one kilometre away before I realized what had happened. I imagine that a snake bite is somewhat worse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
quote:

How about cutting some veins and spilling half your blood? Will that remove half of the poison? Or is that a bad idea?


Bad idea.  Very bad..  Binding on a cellular level takes place quickly enough that cut and suck is ineffective and is likely to significantly worsen patient morbidity and general outcome.  Surgical removal of affected tissue was a technique suggested by Glass some decades ago, but invariably worsens patient morbidity and mortality.  Eg, it's totally ineffective and will fuck you up.  Unfortunately some hospitals are still using the old protocols because they don't keep up with the literature on every rare medical condition.  Envenomation is actually a pretty rare medical condition and most doctors have not seen or managed a case, let alone read Dart's Medical Toxicology or White's Clinical Toxicology with the most modern updates. 

Them physicians don't know nothing. Most of them are even unable to correctly diagnose an appendicitis or a heart attack.
 
I suppose drinking lots of water will be ineffective as well as the poison has already bound to the tissues, so it cannot be diluted? Are the poisons fat soluble? If so, will eating a tub of butter help?

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/17/2008 2:52:47 PM >

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 3:06:56 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Okay, I get that. Of course it is no use to me, as I being a lay person do not know whether it is indicated or contraindicated. I suppose it is only useful in case of a bite in the limbs? How about a bite in the neck, head, belly or chest?


Correct.  You're just fucked in those cases.
 
quote:

I suppose that staying passive or running the marathon when bitten is also dependent upon indication or contraindication? I was once stung in a finger by a wasp that I had not noticed that sat on the same berry that I wanted to harvest. That hurt a LOT. I was on my bike and about one kilometre away before I realized what had happened. I imagine that a snake bite is somewhat worse.


Staying calm and not moving is indicated in all envenomation cases except when you need to walk out to get help and there is no other alternative.


quote:

Them physicians don't know nothing. Most of them are even unable to correctly diagnose an appendicitis or a heart attack.


I don't think the failure rate is that bad for common medical conditions, but for native and especially exotic envenomation, it really is that bad.

quote:

I suppose drinking lots of water will be ineffective as well as the poison has already bound to the tissues, so it cannot be diluted? Are the poisons fat soluble? If so, will eating a tub of butter help?


Eating or drinking anything is not going to help you.  In most snake envenomations you're going to be puking your guts out in short order anyhow.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 3:09:30 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Rule, good questions!
Also, I was wondering why they consider a bite from a Coral more "serious" than a Copperhead or Cotton Mouth?

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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 3:39:00 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		My questions reflect that I am rather a snake venom dumb person. I saw some documentaries on national geographic about people that got bitten. Not pleasant such a bite.
 
Anyway, Najakcharmer has given a lot of good advice, most importantly: respect snake space.
 
It is a good thing that we have nary a snake in The Netherlands. I have never seen one in the wild. But then I do not get out much. I got bitten by a mosquito last Monday, though, when I urinated in the woods. Guess where it landed and did the damage...

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 3:41:47 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I was wondering why they consider a bite from a Coral more "serious" than a Copperhead or Cotton Mouth?
I seem to recall that Robert Anson Heinlein once mentioned that the coral snake is the most poisonous snake in the USA. He or his main character played with one for some time as a child before he realized the nature of his pretty snake.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 3:46:06 PM   
Najakcharmer


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Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Also, I was wondering why they consider a bite from a Coral more "serious" than a Copperhead or Cotton Mouth?


Micrurus fulvius is a pretty little thing, and generally docile, with teeny tiny fangs (1-2mm) that can deliver a sub-q injection to human skin, just barely, but cannot penetrate shoes, gloves or clothing.  Bites to dogs and cats are almost invariably in the mouth, as they can't bite through fur either.  That's the good news.  The bad news is that if you are bitten, it's quite a serious neurotoxin that can shut your body down and you won't be breathing without assistance.  Onset of symptoms can be delayed for many hours, leading to the annoyingly common scenario of  a patient presenting for snakebite and being discharged a few hours later with no symptoms, then crashing suddenly (and sometimes irreversibly) up to 19 hours later when they are at home and perhaps asleep. 

The even more fun part is that the production of Micrurus fulvius antivenom is largely fucked at the moment, and existing stocks are dwindling,   The good news is that spending a few days (or possibly weeks) on a ventilator can often get a patient through just fine, whether the patient is human, canine or feline.

We have another coral species in the US, Micruroides euryxanthus, but bites are rare and they are not nearly as dangerous.  Deaths have not been recorded from this species.  There is no specific antivenom but the existing Micrurus serum - if you can find some - is considered effective.

Bites from our local Agkistrodon (cottons and coppers) are cytotoxic and tissue destructive, the former much more so than the latter, but won't paralyze you or make you stop breathing.  They can definitely ruin your day, or even your life, since it's not too uncommon for the outcome of a cottonmouth bite to a distal extremity to be the loss of that extremity, either in whole or part, or permanent impairment of function.  Copperhead bites are generally managed conservatively without antivenom, and outcomes are generally good barring pre-existing health complications.  Death from copperhead bite would be almost unheard of, and death from cottonmouth bite fairly difficult to achieve without horrendous bad fortune (say, an extremely rare intravenous bite) or significant pre-existing medical conditions. 

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 3:51:09 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I seem to recall that Robert Anson Heinlein once mentioned that the coral snake is the most poisonous snake in the USA. He or his main character played with one for some time as a child before he realized the nature of his pretty snake.


Yes, it was RAH.  Children (and adults) play with them frequently.  Bites are still surprisingly rare, as a coral snake picked up gently rarely tries to bite, but will tolerate extended handling.  If you scare it or squeeze it too hard, or as some toddlers have done, bite the snake first, it's going to bite back.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 4:01:32 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		When a nearly brainless nephew of mine was a toddler he bit their huge dog in its ear, hard. The startled dog snapped at his face. My brother was killing mad at the dog. I talked him out of shooting the dog; I never got any gratitude from the ingrate dog for that, though. (The dog had property rights to the candy that he ate as that had fallen to floor, so my nearly brainless nephew was not justified in biting him.)

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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 4:09:27 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		When man calls an animal "vicious", he usually means that it will attempt to defend itself when he tries to kill it.

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RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 4:15:37 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Najak, evidently the drunken rednecks who think they can molest and grab snakes don't realize that if they get bit they can lose a finger or two or have a lot of tissue damage to deal with along with a lot of medical bills.
Alcohol makes people do stupid things.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 4:22:12 PM   
OnlyMels


Posts: 115
Joined: 2/27/2008
Status: offline 		eww I remember going to summer camp one year and woke up with a huge pregnant wolf spider by my head I think me and the 3 other girls in the tent woke up the whole camp. Try hair spray for the ones n your house thats good for anything flying or heck even some bug spray or call pest control.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: advice: too many tan spiders - 7/17/2008 4:23:30 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Alcohol makes people do stupid things.


A goodly percentage of North American snake bites involve a male age 17 to 23 and alcohol or drugs.  That is the single most common victim profile.  The words "Y'all watch this" may also figure in a statistically significant number of these cases, but  I don't think anyone has collected formal numbers on that. 

(in reply to popeye1250)
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