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The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 3:41:41 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		This topic came up in the "jury duty" thread and i feel it deserves its own thread. i have lots of opinions -- some conflicting -- about the death penalty in this country. Here are some factoids:

As of 2002, it is a violation of the 8th Amendment (cruel & unusual) to execute a mentally retarded individual.

Atkins v. Virginia

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-8452.ZS.html

In 2005, it became illegal to execute an individual who was a juvenile when the crime occured.

Roper v. Simmons

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01mar20051115/www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/04pdf/03-633.pdf

According to the Death Penalty Information Center, the cost of execution is 38% higher than Life Without Parole.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#From%20DPIC

There is a series of factoids i could cite, but let me now relay my personal experience. i was a legislative staffer for the Commission on Capital Cases in Florida; the state which is second only to Texas in the number and rate at which inmates are executed. When an execution date is set, the family generally come to Tallahassee along with the District Attorney and others to see what the rulings of the State Supreme Court will be regarding any pending appeals. It generally requires several go-rounds of this before a death occurs. Thus, the victim's family has several more years of hell before the execution is carried out. Compare their experiences to families whose killer is given Life Without the Possibility of Parole. Those families have more closure, if such a thing is possible. Maybe it's better said, they can disengage from the legal system, and i think that's a better result.

Prisioners with LWPP sentences pose a huge risk to correctional officers and to other prisioners, as there is nothing -- short of a death penalty -- that can be done in the event of another murder behind bars.

Protecting the mentally retarded from execution may serve the ends of justice. It does happen that police departments close a case quickly by "extracting" a confession from the local mental defective. IMO, any interrogation in a potential death penalty case should be video-taped to prevent the police from "helping" retarded people to "confess".

i could go on, but perhaps it's time to cede the floor to others.

candystripper
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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 4:48:08 PM   
onceburned


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From: Iowa
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quote:

The color of a defendant and victim's skin plays a crucial and unacceptable role in deciding who receives the death penalty in America. People of color have accounted for a disproportionate 43 % of total executions since 1976 and 55 % of those currently awaiting execution. A moratorium of the death penalty is necessary to address the blatant prejudice in our application of the death penalty.
<snip>
While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims. Furthermore, as of October 2002, 12 people have been executed where the defendant was white and the murder victim black, compared with 178 black defendants executed for murders with white victims.
<snip>
In the 2003 Supreme Court case Miller-El v. Cockrell, the Supreme Court ruled in his favor that Miller-El should have been given the opportunity to prove that his death sentence was the result of discriminatory jury practices. Such practices included the so called �Texas shuffle� to limit or eliminate African American jurors. Other practices included disparate questioning of potential jurors based on race, and a training memo instructing prosecutors on ways to skew juries based on race.

http://www.aclu.org/DeathPenalty/DeathPenalty.cfm?ID=9312&c=62

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 5:47:55 PM   
michaelMI


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Status: offline 		personally, here's what they should do. before executing a death row inmate, they should allow human testing of various drug treatments for different dieases. a morbid thoughtm i agree, but it would save the FDA time and money and drugs needed to cure or treat various diseases would be available alot sooner than they are now.

afterall, aren't they gonna die anyway?

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 6:16:46 PM   
MadameDahlia


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From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline 		One could quite easily argue that doing that to someone would be cruel and unusual punishment.

However I'm of the mindset that if they're going to be put to death they ought to fork over some organs and speed along some of those patients waiting for a transplant.

I'm not entirely sure what all that would entail, but I doubt prisoners would be executed using most of the methods available at the moment if this was an option. I don't think they'd electrocute or hang them at any rate.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 7:46:32 PM   
onceburned


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From: Iowa
Status: offline 		Last year, of the 59 prisoners executed, one person was electrocuted and the others were snuffed via lethal injection.

And 107 prisoners on death row, last year, had their sentences overturned, commuted or tossed out.
Full news article

As far as organ donation goes, I think its a good idea for any of us to volunteer our bodies. But getting government involved in mandatory body parts confiscation.... and killing people to gain those parts... its a bit creepy.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 11/13/2005 7:47:06 PM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 8:39:39 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

According to the Death Penalty Information Center, the cost of execution is 38% higher than Life Without Parole.


Gee I wonder why this is?

1. Most of these ppl keep appealing and live on a good 5 to 15 years eating food and and other resources.

2. We higher professional personel to enduce the high costing drugs for humane reasons. Then pay a MD to pronounce the body dead.

The first one, well okay, it's only natural for a person to fight for his/her life till the bitter end. Not many want to die even if they were selfish enough to kill someone in cold blood.

The second however is rediculos. Whatever happen to cheap hangings, a $0.25 cent bullet to the head, simple decapation, and being burned alive in a bonfire where wood and hay is gatherd then lite with a few matches?
Yes exicutioners should be paid well for there job but other than that, I think we can truely cutt down on the other expenses that truely aren't needed. The cost is high now because to many people push for humanitary rights. Why can't ppl just be killed they same way the killed there victim? That sounds more appropriate to me.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 9:01:29 PM   
luvdragonx


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Status: offline 		I'm going to hold my opinions on the death penalty in reserve for the moment because while execution is certainly an important topic, I think the management of the incarcerated population is an even bigger concern.

Putting aside the various means by which many inmates find themselves incarcerated, my question is: why have we allowed them to become a separate society? Unaccountable for their alleged negative effect on the rest of us?

Part of the problem IMO, has been the privitization of the penal system. Due to a crisis in prison overcrowding, government has acceded responsibilty of managing this segment of society, yet they can still hold a prisoners life forfeit if the circumstances are right? That doesn't sound right to me. The moment a public service becomes big business, we're in trouble. The general attitude of the average citizen is "As long as they aren't bothering me, who cares?" So no one really knows how prisoners are treated in these facilities. Does their treatment adversely affect their so-called rehabilitation? Is rehab really a concern for these businesses? Do they benefit from higher or lower populations? Could the strategies of these private prisons be incorporated into the existing infrastructure and be even more beneficial?

I think that prisoners should be productive members of this society, even if they aren't directly interacting with the rest of us. I realize that many private facilities already have inmates performing jobs like highway clean up, laundry services and agricultural work. Some even have inmates doing things like phone work. Those situations are no

I think that if government - local, state and federal - can dictate the reasons by which you can become a prisoner, they should equally be concerned with the housing, oversight, and overall impact prisoners have on society once they become inmates. Outsourcing is the method du jour, it seems, but I've yet to hear what the long term benefits for everyone are supposed to be.

I'm not saying that all prisoners don't deserve to be there. I just believe that if you get sentenced to time, and you're getting a place to live, food and minimal medical care, you need to give back, dammit. There are too many people who haven't committed a crime who don't get those basic needs met, but no one makes a profit from 'taking care' of them.


To the topic of the OP: I would wholeheartedly support the death penalty IF I believed that the justice system was in fact Just.

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 11/13/2005 9:11:11 PM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 10:33:03 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

To the topic of the OP: I would wholeheartedly support the death penalty IF I believed that the justice system was in fact Just.


I worry about the system being Just and also Correct in their
convictions of people. There are people who are innocent that
not only reside in our prison systems but also get put to Death.

Just one innocent person getting put to Death for me, is Atrocious!
I also think the Death Penalty for some is too easy a way out...
I find that it would be more punishable to lock them up and
live with their loss of freedom and having to live everyday of the
rest of their life with the thoughts of their crimes to haunt them.

*Brightspot

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/13/2005 11:12:47 PM   
luvdragonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

quote:

To the topic of the OP: I would wholeheartedly support the death penalty IF I believed that the justice system was in fact Just.


I worry about the system being Just and also Correct in their
convictions of people. There are people who are innocent that
not only reside in our prison systems but also get put to Death.

Just one innocent person getting put to Death for me, is Atrocious!
I also think the Death Penalty for some is too easy a way out...
I find that it would be more punishable to lock them up and
live with their loss of freedom and having to live everyday of the
rest of their life with the thoughts of their crimes to haunt them.

*Brightspot


Which is why I'm not a rabid defender of the death penalty. You're right - WAY too many people are convicted and sentenced under questionable circumstances.

If the Justice system was fair - meaning testimony can't be bought or coerced, evidence can't be tampered with, and politics played no part - I wouldn't have a problem with the Eye for an Eye mentality. Matter of fact, I'd prefer that attitude toward crime. If someone is an admitted rapist - castrate him. Armed robber - work for someone else with no pay. Abusive spouses - forced to be sparring partners for pro-fighters.

My biggest issue wiith life imprisonment is the fact that it costs upwards of 20K a year to support the murderer convicted at 25 years of age. Given regular meals and health care, that useless member of society will be around for a long, long time. And that's assuming that the murderer is even remorseful, which he may not be. Then what punishment is there?

I personally feel that once you cross a line, you give up your rights. You kill for fun, guess what - you're rights as a human are forfeit. There are tons of drug companies who need human subjects for testing - put them to some use to the rest of us.



< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 11/13/2005 11:13:51 PM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 12:35:58 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:


According to the Death Penalty Information Center, the cost of execution is 38% higher than Life Without Parole.


This is my main argument with the death penalty -- The cost to implement it is too extreme for the tax payers. Not only that, but it further propels the need for more Lawyers, Judges and Burecrats, all of which if were converted into engineers, would make this planet a far better and more enjoyable place to live on.

My alternative to the death penalty is something along the lines of the movie ''No Escape'' with Ray Liotta. I say we stick all the murders and child molesters on an island, far far away from civilization, and then make routine air drops with food and supplies. No steel bars, no jail guards or lazy and over-paid administrators. With nowhere to go, let the toughest of crooks survive.




- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 11/14/2005 3:34:58 AM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 2:47:09 AM   
michaelMI


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Status: offline 		i still think they should use them as test subjects for curing diseases. it would be more beneficial to the world if they did. just my .02 worth

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 3:38:46 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

i still think they should use them as test subjects for curing diseases.


Are you talking about the Lawyers, Judges and Burecrats, or the criminals?


- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 3:42:49 AM   
michaelMI


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Status: offline 		well, they could start with the criminals that are behind bars first...LOL. then work their way down the chain...hahahahahahaha.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 4:38:37 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, onceburned, you have identified another factoid which should give people pause. District Attorneys are much more likely to seek the death penalty against people of color, particularly where the victim was white. People of color are hugely over-represented on death rows not just in Texas but in most states. (Or caucasian people are under-represented.) It is impossible to deny that color plays a role in what fate lies ahead for an individual convicted of murder one.

candystripper

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 4:44:36 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

personally, here's what they should do. before executing a death row inmate, they should allow human testing of various drug treatments for different dieases. a morbid thoughtm i agree, but it would save the FDA time and money and drugs needed to cure or treat various diseases would be available alot sooner than they are now.

afterall, aren't they gonna die anyway?

MichaellMI


Michael, there has been a debate concerning the donation of organs from executions. All forms of execution (expect possibly hanging) damage the internal organs to the point where they are unusable for transplant; one school of thought is that inamtes should be able to donate and that a new method of execution is needed in such cases.

i cannot site sources, but i know the Dept of Defense and other government agencies have experimented with drugs on inmates. They are offered more priviledges or a shorter sentence in exchange for participation in a study, but the problem lies in failing to fully disclose to inmates the side effects of drugs being exerimented. i am in favor of "hard time" but not of using an inmate carelessly, as if he were a guniea pig.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/14/2005 4:45:27 AM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 4:55:09 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

To the topic of the OP: I would wholeheartedly support the death penalty IF I believed that the justice system was in fact Just.

luvdragonx


That is the crux of the matter. Florida executed Ted Bundy as well as Oba Chandler; the Tampa man who lured a mom and her two daughters onto his boat; sexually assaulted them and then tied concrete blocks to their bodies and threw them overboard, bound so that they had no chance of survival.

i read the trial court opinion, imposing the death penalty on Chandler, and as it pointed out; after the first woman (or teenager) was killed, the other two knew what he was going to do to them and had witnessed their family member's death. For the second and third to die, this must have been unbearable. Chandler does deserve the death penalty.

However, i am also aware of cases where (IMO) the District Attorney over-charged; the standard for murder one was not really met. One-punch homicides are an example; premeditation -- even intent -- are difficult to perceive and i think the DA went for murder one because the defenadant was someone the jury would not like; in all probability, a person of color.

candystripper

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 5:10:53 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

This is my main argument with the death penalty -- The cost to implement it is too extreme for the tax payers. Not only that, but it further propels the need for more Lawyers, Judges and Burecrats, all of which if were converted into engineers, would make this planet a far better and more enjoyable place to live on.

Utopian Ranger


There is definately an increased cost to the death penalty verus LWPP. For one thing, a death-qualified jury must be empanelled; and after the defendant is found quilty of murder one, that jury must sift through evidence of mitigation and aggravation to reach a death penalty judgment. In high-profile cases, juries may be sequestered, driving costs up further. Poor counties sometimes appeal to the state for more funding for a particular trial, but such assistance is not always provided.

There is, in Florida, and probably elsewhere, a cost of post-conviction appeals, as the state provides an attorney for appeals at least to a degree. In Florida, approximately half of all state supreme court decisions (of all types) concern a death row inmate's appeal. This is obviously wasteful.

To deal with this problem, Texas has created a dual court system, with criminal matters being handled by a separate trial, appellate and supreme court system. An inmate has only 90 days post-verdict to present evidence of his innocence, and the US Supreme Court has ruled that innocence is not a bar to execution. The case i mentioned before, in which the public defender slept through portions of the trial but was nevertheless found to have provided "competent counsel" arises from a Texas trial.

There were many proposals in Florida to reduce appellate rights for death row inmates. It is a bit difficult due to US Supreme Court decisions; and most death row inmates first exhaust state appeals then move on to federal appeals, all the way to the US Supreme Court, which is why they live so long after sentence has been pronounced.

i can only assume that Utopian Ranger spoke tongue-in-cheek when He said lawyers, judges and bureaucrats should be converted into engineers. i really don't get why the position of engineer is so desirable.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/14/2005 5:13:36 AM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 5:20:20 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		Listen; i love lawyer jokes as much as anyone. However, it is a matter of record in Florida that everyone involved (apart from the police and District Attorneys) works very hard to assure that an inmate's rights are protected and that work reduces the number of unfairly-convicted and innocent people on death row by a margin.

Post-conviction death penalty work is extremely complex; and the lawyers and judges who handle these cases are generally working at their personal best.

For the sake of all concerned, the time between sentencing and execution should be made shorter. Many very bright people worked on this issue in Florida, but it was not possible to make much headway due to certain rights recognised by the US Supreme Court. So everyone has to go through the motions; filing Motions for New Trial, etc., which have little chance of success. It's a true conundrum.

candystripper

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 6:57:24 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

i can only assume that Utopian Ranger spoke tongue-in-cheek when He said lawyers, judges and bureaucrats should be converted into engineers. i really don't get why the position of engineer is so desirable.


Pink....

Don't let my facetious comments get to you. My father spent nearly twenty years as a securities attorney in San Francisco before he went into the hospitality industry. I have nothing personal against someone's choice to become an attorney {I do like lawyer jokes tho....} However, on numerous occasions, he and I have both agreed on the simple fact that :

A} There are way too many lawyers.
B} An overabundance of lawyers can only perpetuate more bureaucracy, hence a drain on the tax payer.

As for my comment regards converting lawyers,judges and bureaucrats into engineers? I'll just say this : When you can open up the yellow pages and see that there are more attorney's listed than the sum total of plumbers, auto mechanics, contractors and electricians combined, I think our society has a problem.

Look at it this way: When there are too many lawyers and too much competition between them, what do they do? Simple....They find ways to make more work for themselves, hence we end up with more laws and become more regulatory.

Now, I think if engineers had the same problem as lawyers and there were too many of them, society would end up much better off, as increased competition would only result in new inventions and breakthroughs in technology that would eventually make our lives much better.


JMHO


- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/14/2005 7:44:19 AM   
pantera


Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline 		1. Free all non-violent drug related offerders and make all drugs legal

2. If somebody is guilty, with concrete evidence linking him to a crime that merits the death penalty, kill the SOB and do it quick! Make it fast and make it efficient...don't waste money and resources. His victims never got a chance, why should him.

These two things are not going to "fix" the justice system, but I bet you they are going to help-

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