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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/16/2005 7:58:22 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

Not a problem. If I was offered the chance to "push the button" when my brother's murderer gets executed, I would gladly do so.

~stef


O Gawd stef; my heartfelt condolences.

candystripper

(in reply to stef)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/16/2005 8:02:05 AM   
candystripper


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I always knew that one day we'd both agree on something. HAR! Defending and keeping low-level drug offenders tied up in the penal-system is miscarriage of justice. Both the prison lobby and lawyers guild oughta be brought up on a RICCO statute for conspiring to defraud the tax payers of this great land.

- The Ranger


i thought we agreed all the time; not paying enough attention i suppose. Legislators lack the political will to repeal drug charges from the penal code, and the penal system itself is a powerful lobby; please make more acts illegal and sentences longer so we can justify our growth. "Third strike" legislation is an example. There have been cases where the third crime was shoplifting; yet the DA charged "Third Strike" and the offender faced a life sentence. Ridiculous.

candystripper

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/16/2005 1:52:26 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:


i thought we agreed all the time; not paying enough attention i suppose.


Actually, My post was directed to Pantera. But based on what I've read from you so far, you seem to be the type of Lawyer {Or former Lawyer} who is swayed more by ideals than greed. And I give you a whole lota credit for that.

The profession itself is a very noble one, however, the types of people that sometimes enter the profession are some of the most greedy, manipulative and power hungry on the planet.

Now, I dare someone to make that same argument regards Doctors and CPA's, that comes even an inkling close to the same scale.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the Third Strike legislation. However, I think we need to keep in mind that the whole Third Strike legislation was a direct result of overzealous and greedy politicians trying manipulate and capitalize on the grief of victims and their families.

Truth be told, that legislation combined with the greedy prison lobby, has picked the pockets clean of the tax payers. And the prison lobby might just be the most slimy of all.

I'll tell ya what, do remember old Jim Traficant, congressman from Youngstown? I don't think he went to prison because he was crook, I think he went to prison because he and few other congressman were pushing the idea that ''we the people'' need to systematically end payroll tax deductions by employers and make every single working person responsible for paying their own taxes.

I think that this group of congressman knew that if every single American working, had to pay their own taxes each quarter and received a detailed statement that broke down government expenditures into percentages, etc., some of these ''clown acts'' like all the prison building, class action lawsuits and other tort shemes, illegal aliens, and Halliburton tricks would quickly come to their demise.

Anyway... sorry for the long rant!! All this talk about how inefficient and ineffectual the death penalty is, really gets my goat. Too much of the time people rely on their emotions instead of logic and reasoning.



- The Ranger


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/16/2005 2:13:13 PM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I will agree that the death penalty, as it is currently administered, is not much of a deterrent.


The death penalty, in whatever way it is administered, is not a deterrent. It wasn't in medieval Europe, where the death penalty was quickly passed and utterly horrible. It isn't it in modern day China, where the sentence is passed often, and quickly executed. And it will certainly not be a deterrent for the psychopaths who commit the most cruel crimes.

Although personally I oppose the death penalty in all cases without exception, I believe there are valid arguments to be in favour, especially vengeance. If a relative of a victim wants to push the button in return, I can understand that, and I do think it's a legitimite feeling.

But please, do not believe that any form of death penalty, however cruelly administered, however quickly passed, will ever be a strong deterrent and reduce crime; It has never done so in history, and it will never do.

Roel

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/16/2005 2:44:18 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

Now, I dare someone to make that same argument regards Doctors and CPA's, that comes even an inkling close to the same scale.

Utopian Ranger


The Florida Medicaid budget is $3 Billion; everyone knows $1 Billion goes to fraud. Fraud committed primarially by MD's.

When an insurance company fails, somewhere, a CPA was signing their financials up to the day they stopped paying claims; putting legalese in the footnotes. Rarely if ever are they prosecuted for Conspiracy to Commit Fraud, or even struck from the rolls of CPA's authorised to sign off on ins co financials.

You will find a low level of ethics in ANY profession, especially when there's money in bad acts. i thank You for the compliment; i am proud of my career. Not every lawyer representing Big Insurance is a morally-bankrupt person, but many are...without consequence. It is very frustrating.

candystripper

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/18/2005 8:50:56 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		You are entitled to your opinion, although I disagree. There will always, under any circumstances, be those who are not deterred by the possibility of consequences but they do not make up the majority.
My position is that for any consequence to be an effective deterrent (for those who are capable of understanding the relationship between action and consequence) the consequence must be logically applied with sufficient consistancy that the majority perceive the equation to be [crime=punishment]. The three examples you cite fail to meet that standard, as does our current system.
My personal belief is that the death penalty should be admistered to any and all who will not constrain themselves to behaviors that respect the civil liberties of other citizens. Anyone can make a mistake, but those who refuse to respect the right of others to peacefully co-exist are a burden to society and should be removed. I have no moral or ethical obligation to support a secondary infrastructure for those individuals who refuse to observe the requirements of civilized behavior. I would put them down with as little remorse as I would any other animal that preyed upon humans.
Civilization is seperated from anarchy by the thinnest of veneers. Our freedom to carry on with our daily lives is predicated upon the assumption that we all follow the same rules of law. Those few who refuse to be so bound weaken the entire structure and thus pose an inordinate danger to our society. Excising the infestation is simply good sense. A doctor who proposed segregating cancerous cells would find his patients looking elsewhere for treatment in very short order and the current justice system is attempting a very similar feat
Timothy

(in reply to Guilty1974)
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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/18/2005 9:53:35 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I will leave it to the reader's judgment as to whether the current state of affairs is a direct result of the radical departure our society has taken from personal responsibility and Judeo-Christian ethics.


Nice try, but I call bullshit at the connection you are attempting to make. Many of the Founding Fathers were *NOT* Christians - and proudly not so. Many were Deists instead.

------------------------------

Deism: [1]deúism. noun. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion . . . has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble."
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles March 9, 1790

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin, in Toward The Mystery

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford April 1, 1774

"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew, Peter Carr

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of . . . Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"...denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian."
-- Ethan Allen, Reason the Only Oracle of Man

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religous opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-- Joel Barlow, Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, written during Washington's administration, ratified during Adams' administration.

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
-- John Adams

Further references:
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b44ab97110d.htm
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6177
http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1413815&mesg_id=1413815

------------------------------

Now you can say whatever it is you would like to say. But do not attempt to appeal to authorities that pointedly disgree with your stated viewpoints.



(in reply to domtimothy46176)
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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/19/2005 12:47:59 AM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

You are entitled to your opinion, although I disagree. There will always, under any circumstances, be those who are not deterred by the possibility of consequences but they do not make up the majority.


You may off course disagree. I'll simply wait until there's scientific evidence that the death penalty deters. So far there isn't.

Should your ideas on the death penalty be introduced, the result will not be a state without crime, but a state wherein the government will set a death penalty on more and more crimes and where more and more deviant behaviour will be criminalised. With your government that would be the end of our lifestyle, for instance. The reason why this is so, is present in your own line of argumentation: there is only a very thin layer of veneer. Unfortunately, history has shown us that government officials are not exempt.

Roel

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/19/2005 5:15:30 PM   
domtimothy46176


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From: Dayton, Ohio area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I will leave it to the reader's judgment as to whether the current state of affairs is a direct result of the radical departure our society has taken from personal responsibility and Judeo-Christian ethics.


Nice try, but I call bullshit at the connection you are attempting to make. Many of the Founding Fathers were *NOT* Christians - and proudly not so. Many were Deists instead.

------------------------------

Deism: [1]deúism. noun. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.



I never said the Founding Fathers were christian. I implied that the country was founded upon the principle of personal responsibility and that the rules of law were drawn from judeo-christian ethics. You may disagree with my implication as you see fit, but please don't attribute points to me that I never made. Had I intended to present the founders as devout christians attempting to construct a throcracy, I would have said as much.
Timothy

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/19/2005 5:33:01 PM   
domtimothy46176


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

You are entitled to your opinion, although I disagree. There will always, under any circumstances, be those who are not deterred by the possibility of consequences but they do not make up the majority.


You may off course disagree. I'll simply wait until there's scientific evidence that the death penalty deters. So far there isn't.

Should your ideas on the death penalty be introduced, the result will not be a state without crime, but a state wherein the government will set a death penalty on more and more crimes and where more and more deviant behaviour will be criminalised. With your government that would be the end of our lifestyle, for instance. The reason why this is so, is present in your own line of argumentation: there is only a very thin layer of veneer. Unfortunately, history has shown us that government officials are not exempt.

Roel


While you are entitled to your own opinions, I addressed what I find to be the most dangerous threat to civilization when I wrote::

"My position is that for any consequence to be an effective deterrent (for those who are capable of understanding the relationship between action and consequence) the consequence must be logically applied with sufficient consistancy that the majority perceive the equation to be [crime=punishment].

Our freedom to carry on with our daily lives is predicated upon the assumption that we all follow the same rules of law. Those few who refuse to be so bound weaken the entire structure and thus pose an inordinate danger to our society."

Obviously, I am cognizant of the critical role that consistant logical application of the law plays in deterring crime. In an earlier post, I wrote this:

"It's my personal opinion that this inconsistency, where justice becomes a roll of the dice rather than a certainty, has lead to the lack of faith in the established system. Whenever consequence becomes divorced from action there is a decreased ability to guide behavior. Until and unless we see a sustained revival in consistently clear, logical applications of the law, I believe we will continue to see a decline in the effectiveness of the legal system and an increasing disregard for the rule of law, in general."

I think I addressed the importance of applying the law equally to those of all stations when I wrote this:

"It is important to note, however, that the entire system is mired in inconsistencies that hinder the effectiveness at all levels. Even swift, harsh justice meted out inconsistently will fail to be effective at providing an efficient deterrent. The law must be both blind to class and race as well as logically consistent at all levels in order to engender an atmosphere that promotes good citizenship."

My question for you is this:

If you are against the administration of the death penalty under any circumstances, what steps would you take to ensure that non-predatory citizens are able to proceed with their lives unmolested?

(in reply to Guilty1974)
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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/19/2005 6:48:39 PM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

My question for you is this:

If you are against the administration of the death penalty under any circumstances, what steps would you take to ensure that non-predatory citizens are able to proceed with their lives unmolested?



Actually, with the death penalty obviously being a lousy deterrent, I doubt if there is any deterrent at all that would ensure safety for all law-abiding citizens. There simply is a baseline rate of crime that cannot be rooted out by deterrence, only punished after the fact. I think life imprisonment is a viable alternative for the worst cases.

But a question for you. I live in a pretty poor area of one of the biggest cities in my country, a country which has abolished the death penalty decades ago, which rarely applies life without parole, has no three-strike-out system, has relatively low setencing standards compared to the US, and yet I feel remarkably safe in even the worst parts of my city, and I'm not a really big guy. Why do you think harsher punishments are gonna work?

Roel

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/19/2005 7:42:34 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I never said the Founding Fathers were christian. I implied that the country was founded upon the principle of personal responsibility and that the rules of law were drawn from judeo-christian ethics.


The inference is clearly there - in two sentences you go from telling us what you think Thomas Jefferson meant to yapping about "Judeo-Christian" ethics. Can I ask you something? What exactly does "Judeo-Christian" mean? I can look it up in the dictionary as well as the next person, but the definition: "...of or pertaining to the religious writings, beliefs, values, or traditions held in common by Judaism and Christianity" seems pretty sloppy to me. I can't honestly think of many "writings, beliefs, values, or traditions" held in common by those distinct groups. The word is void of any tangible meaning. You might as well have stated "Judeo-Islamic" and mystified us all just as well.

Did you mean to say Mosaic Law? Why didn't you say that? Frankly, I don't claim to know what you meant. You are drawing from shoddy arguments and rhetorical techniques as are often used by fundamentalist Christians. "Moral underpinnings"? That's rich!

BTW, I anticipated your making this very argument - which I find funny.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/19/2005 10:27:09 PM   
domtimothy46176


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

Why do you think harsher punishments are gonna work?

Roel


As I've stated previously, "Until and unless we see a sustained revival in consistently clear, logical applications of the law, I believe we will continue to see a decline in the effectiveness of the legal system and an increasing disregard for the rule of law, in general." The price of extra-legal activity must necessarily be axiomatic for any punishment to be an effective deterrent. This is currently lacking within the US and it is this lack of consistency, coupled with a haphazard application of logic in judicial ruling that I find to be the primary reason behind the degradation of civility.
Where you and I are in complete disagreement is the application of the death penalty against those who are unrepentent predators. I have no issue with rehabilitating those who demonstrate a desire to live within the bounds of polite society. I see no reason, however, to maintain a second infrastructure for the sole purpose of segregating the few who prefer to prey upon their fellow citizens. Those who insist on behaving like savages should be put down.
Timothy

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/19/2005 10:42:47 PM   
domtimothy46176


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Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I never said the Founding Fathers were christian. I implied that the country was founded upon the principle of personal responsibility and that the rules of law were drawn from judeo-christian ethics.


The inference is clearly there - in two sentences you go from telling us what you think Thomas Jefferson meant to yapping about "Judeo-Christian" ethics. Can I ask you something? What exactly does "Judeo-Christian" mean? I can look it up in the dictionary as well as the next person, but the definition: "...of or pertaining to the religious writings, beliefs, values, or traditions held in common by Judaism and Christianity" seems pretty sloppy to me. I can't honestly think of many "writings, beliefs, values, or traditions" held in common by those distinct groups. The word is void of any tangible meaning. You might as well have stated "Judeo-Islamic" and mystified us all just as well.

Did you mean to say Mosaic Law? Why didn't you say that? Frankly, I don't claim to know what you meant. You are drawing from shoddy arguments and rhetorical techniques as are often used by fundamentalist Christians. "Moral underpinnings"? That's rich!

BTW, I anticipated your making this very argument - which I find funny.



I'm pleased you've anticipated my rebuttal with as much humor as I have anticipated yours. I do find it interesting, I must say, that you are unaware of "many "writings, beliefs, values, or traditions" held in common by" jews and christians. I intentionally referenced judeo-christian ethics, rather than mosaic law or talmudic law, because, despite your lack of comprehension, acceptance and/or ignorance of the terminology, it does have "tangible meaning" in the context in which I used it.
I regret that you're "mystified" and "don't know what (I) mean. I can understand how that might lead you to conclude that I am "drawing from shoddy arguments and rhetorical techniques". I can only assume, based upon what you've written, that the concept of moral underpinnings has no relevancy within the context of your personal belief system either. Unfortunately, since we obviously have no common understanding within which to reference to discussion, it would appear that I'll be unable to relate my position in a way that would have meaning to you. Perhaps we can try again, after you've spent more time "look(ing) it up in the dictionary".
Until then, I wish you the very best of luck in your reality.
Timothy

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/20/2005 12:24:42 AM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I do find it interesting, I must say, that you are unaware of "many "writings, beliefs, values, or traditions" held in common by" jews and christians. I intentionally referenced judeo-christian ethics, rather than mosaic law or talmudic law, because, despite your lack of comprehension, acceptance and/or ignorance of the terminology, it does have "tangible meaning" in the context in which I used it.


Great! Teach me.

I want a list of those commonalities maintained by both most Jews and most Christians.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/20/2005 2:36:52 AM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

Where you and I are in complete disagreement is the application of the death penalty against those who are unrepentent predators. I have no issue with rehabilitating those who demonstrate a desire to live within the bounds of polite society. I see no reason, however, to maintain a second infrastructure for the sole purpose of segregating the few who prefer to prey upon their fellow citizens. Those who insist on behaving like savages should be put down.



Actually, i wouldn't mind unrepentent predators beig shot. Yet I am against the death penalty. I think where we are in disagreement, is where you seem to believe that a government can consistantly and logically apply justice. The simple fact is, that judges and juries do make mistakes, always have, always will. People can be wrong. People can be framed. Justice is not a mathematical, logical issue.

So to prevent innocent non-predatory citizens to be executed by mistake by a predatory government, one simply always needs an extensive system that allows appeals etc. I see no reason to pay for such a death penalty system that executes at times the wrong people (and at that moment is no better than an unrepentent killer) and where locking 'em away is way cheaper.

Roel

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/20/2005 4:28:46 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		Sorry, but I only take the time to teach those who I feel have an interest in learning. Thus far you have not shown yourself to be open to new ideas. Besides, I'm certain that you can, if you're truly interested, make use of plentiful resources available to educate yourself.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/20/2005 4:40:07 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
Sorry, but I only take the time to teach those who I feel have an interest in learning.


Ouch, sorry bro...

domtimothy46176 waves white flag.

Thanks for playing!

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/20/2005 5:53:28 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		LOL

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/21/2005 12:19:43 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

Sorry, but I only take the time to teach those who I feel have an interest in learning. Thus far you have not shown yourself to be open to new ideas. Besides, I'm certain that you can, if you're truly interested, make use of plentiful resources available to educate yourself.


Hmmmm...I wonder, would this be an example for the rhetorics topic, or the rudeness topic (any of the many)?

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 60
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