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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/21/2005 3:38:26 PM   
domtimothy46176


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Status: offline 		There's a rhetorics topic?

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/22/2005 12:10:51 AM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

There's a rhetorics topic?


Yeah. But it's an old one and a short one. I guess being rude is more common
Find it here

Roel

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/22/2005 11:52:56 AM   
pantera


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

I think it was Thomas Jefferson who proposed that criminals sentenced to death should be hanged in public the dawn following the trial and left in full public view until sundown.


No wonder I'm such a big fan of the guy! - that's it- I found a name for my baby boy: Jefferson it is-



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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/23/2005 11:59:09 AM   
Sartoris32801


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Status: offline 		Barbaric, non deterrent inconsistently applied by politically motivated individuals and enforced upon the indigent members of society

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/24/2005 12:23:50 AM   
Wolf1020


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From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline 		havn't read the entire thread but will comment.

I am a full supporter of the death penalty, if anything I think we don't use it enough. Is it more expensive then life without parole? Yeah, but that is because of all the hoops that get jumped through. I think anyone that will be in jail for the rest of their life anyway you might as well shortan their life and execute them. Just remember less then 150 years ago we (assuming you live in the US) were hanging people for stealing a horse. Now maybe translating to modern day executing someone for stealing a car is a bit extreme but it goes to jsut how far the way we view the death penalty has changed. If youd be in jail the rest of your life, rape someone (ges double if you rape a little kid), kill someone, have proven you will do nothing but be a career criminal that ends up in jail over and over agian, etc. I think yeah go ahead and execute you. And kiss the hoops goodbye. Right now in most areas if sentanced to death I believe yo uget an automatic apeal and so long as you get a good lawyer you can go through apeal after apeal. Cut that you get two apeals max and after you use those or choose to wave them you get a day to say goodbye to whoever and then get a bullet in the head. No muss, no fuss, no more 20 years of going through the legal system wasting money.

On that note I think victemless crime is that, victemless and not a crime. It is your body if you are of sound mind should be able to do most anything you want to it so long as it doesn't effect me or signifigantly increase the chances of you doing something that will effect me, in other words drugs which severly raise that risk such as PCP. Legalize most drugs since that is where the bulk of victemless crime comes from and you solve most of it. No more dealers on street corners poluting neighborhoods and pushing it to little kids, no more huge source of income for gangs, and no more jails filled with people who are only criminals because the goverment say's they can't put something into their own bodies.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/24/2005 12:51:12 AM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

But please, do not believe that any form of death penalty, however cruelly administered, however quickly passed, will ever be a strong deterrent and reduce crime; It has never done so in history, and it will never do.


No punishment we offer seems to be a strong deterrent to keep crime from happening. Death, life in prison, and such still don't scare people to not commint murder. Anyhow, the goal isn't to reduce crime. It's to punish the offender and hopefully keep him/her from doing it ever again. Dead men can't kill other people. However, they still have the chance of killing other inmates, correction officers, and members of the public upon escaping a prison. Killing the murder not only gives them what they deserve but also keeps everyone safer and out of harms way. If we are to eleminate the death penalty, then I'd like some insurance that they will never break out nor kill again. This can be mostly done by cutting off there arms, legs at the knees, and pulling out there teeth. We would then put the limbs in cryogenics. After all, if some evidence came up proving the person innocent, then there's a chance of reattachment and giving the individual a somewhat decent life outside of prison. Dentures easily replace teeth. If that can't work, well maybe we should put a temporary nerve pinchers in there spianl cords making these murders impossible to move untill we say so other wise. After all, I see nothing wrong with seeing some people die in a slow and suffering manner. Quick painless deaths are too good for so many. There are some who shoud be placed in cell with no AC/Heat, be injected with HIV, and then forced to live off of stale bread and water untill they die of AIDS having no medical treatment or pain relief. And to think, that's still to good for some.



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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/24/2005 2:10:10 AM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

No punishment we offer seems to be a strong deterrent to keep crime from happening. Death, life in prison, and such still don't scare people to not commint murder. Anyhow, the goal isn't to reduce crime. It's to punish the offender and hopefully keep him/her from doing it ever again. Dead men can't kill other people.


As I said, IIRC, I can see some valid justifications for the death penalty, even though I am against it myself. I responded, however, primarily to those who believe that the death penalty will deter people from committing horrible crimes. It won't.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/24/2005 8:45:44 AM   
Wolf1020


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Status: offline 		There will always be those who will laugh at our legal system, not care, or be of the mind set that they wont be caught. But you start doing things like fang said and it will make your casual criminal think twice. There was a time when your punishment was lumped into one of two categories. One you were executed, and the other you were publicly humiliated and/or beat. When you cut off peoples hands for theft you get more casual criminals that think twice. When you execute someone they can't commit other crimes. There will always be diehard criminals but extreme punishment does stop a good few of your more casual criminals if they know what is waiting for them when they are caught.

< Message edited by Wolf1020 -- 11/24/2005 8:46:37 AM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/24/2005 9:15:36 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I haven't read the whole thread.. But my only comment is:

Executions are iriversable. Some times the wrong person is executed. I know of no way of finding an absolute answer to ascertain the guild ot innocence of anyone (Unless caugh red handed) without the chance of a human screw up. I agree with the death penality but it does not act as a deterent. people will still commint abhorent crimes under the influence of social and/or financial pressure or when influenced by drugs. Humans always seem to believe that they wont get caught. Executions are akin to zapping a virus. They clean the system of one bug but leave a gap for another one to fill. This has proven true when drug families are removed, another onw is waiting to step in. However when it involved crimes against the elderly or the very young i am ruthless yet i still year for some form of 100% proof.

Just the thoughts of a aging Grizzly who cant sleep and wanders off into the realms of philosophical though at times (it's a age thing).

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 10:21:45 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

Executions are iriversable. Some times the wrong person is executed. I know of no way of finding an absolute answer to ascertain the guild ot innocence of anyone (Unless caugh red handed) without the chance of a human screw up. I agree with the death penality but it does not act as a deterent. people will still commint abhorent crimes under the influence of social and/or financial pressure or when influenced by drugs. Humans always seem to believe that they wont get caught. Executions are akin to zapping a virus. They clean the system of one bug but leave a gap for another one to fill. This has proven true when drug families are removed, another onw is waiting to step in. However when it involved crimes against the elderly or the very young i am ruthless yet i still year for some form of 100% proof.

IronBear


This is one of the basic conundrums; how to use the death penalty on the guilty and cull the innocent from the punishment. If this could somehow be resolved, many death penalty opponents would drop their objection. However, although the penalty could be reserved for fewer cases with greater proof; this would reduce the chance of executing an innocent person but would not eliminate the outside chance of an innocemt being executed. Everyone (apart from Texas proponents) agrees the system needs reform but nobody agrees as to how and the political will is not there as no pol wants the reputation of "soft on crime". The present system in Florida sucks; as i imagine it does elsewhere.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/25/2005 10:22:35 AM >

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 11:08:33 AM   
girl4you2


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Status: offline 		Edited:
quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

. This can be mostly done by cutting off there arms, legs at the knees, and pulling out there teeth. We would then put the limbs in cryogenics. After all, if some evidence came up proving the person innocent, then there's a chance of reattachment and giving the individual a somewhat decent life outside of prison. Dentures easily replace teeth. If that can't work, well maybe we should put a temporary nerve pinchers in there spianl cords making these murders impossible to move untill we say so other wise.

interesting ideas, but medically impossible. if you freeze limbs, they die. frozen blood vessels cannot be unfrozen successfully, and without those, the whole limb goes. no way to reattach and have it survive. as to the "temporary" nerve pinchers in the spinal cord, once you put pressure on the cord, the nerves die, and cannot be made to be "undead." as a paraplegic or quadraplegic. these things are not reversible.

so were these things to be done, and if one of the persons these things were done to were found to be innocent, you'd have created a person who would be unable to move for the rest of their lives (or move little, depending upon where their spinal cord had been basically severed--the same result from a pinch or a crush) or you'd have created an amputee.

there are no easy answers to this problem. some might start at the roots as to why people feel they have to commit crimes. some work in this area might prove to be the deterrent you seek.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 11:10:14 AM   
Sunshine119


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelus04

Drugs should be legal and the only reason there not is because our government would lose money afterall they need the money that they get from the drug lords to keep our country running


Now, I think drugs should be legal because the government could tax them the same way they tax cigarettes and alcohol. Just think of the income generated for states there! And, if we let all the non-violent drug offenders out of prison, we wouldn't need anywhere near the number we currently have. But, since the prison system is privatized, you can be assured that they have their own lobbyists in D.C. fighting for their own interests. Which is directly in opposition to every citizen's interest, as we pay more taxes to keep more prisons open.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 11:15:16 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

there are no easy answers to this problem. some might start at the roots as to why people feel they have to commit crimes. some work in this area might prove to be the deterrent you seek.

girlforyou2


You raise an interesting question. There is widespread agreement that the death penalty has little or no deterrent effect. Nothing will deter the sociopaths and pyscopaths from their carnage, but other murders, such as spousal murder, may be subject to reduction.

i have no site to verify this, but as i recall, Florida had incarcerated 1/3rd of all Black men between 18 and 25. An entire generation has been imprisioned. Surely this makes the point that unemployment and other factors contribute to the problem.

candystripper

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 11:26:43 AM   
girl4you2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
quote:

there are no easy answers to this problem. some might start at the roots as to why people feel they have to commit crimes. some work in this area might prove to be the deterrent you seek.
girlforyou2

You raise an interesting question. There is widespread agreement that the death penalty has little or no deterrent effect. Nothing will deter the sociopaths and pyscopaths from their carnage, but other murders, such as spousal murder, may be subject to reduction.

i have no site to verify this, but as i recall, Florida had incarcerated 1/3rd of all Black men between 18 and 25. An entire generation has been imprisioned. Surely this makes the point that unemployment and other factors contribute to the problem.

candystripper

having lived in florida as well as other parts of the south, i don't find this figure comforting. why would 1/3 of a group be incarcerated? does it truly mean that their being poor and unemployed supports that they have committed a crime they were incarcerated for? i doubt it. too many black men are incarcerated in all states merely because they are black. racism is alive and thriving everywhere, not just the south (although florida does have voter intimidation down quite well, especially in the northern part of the state).

were it true, then yes, it does show that we as a country have much work to do at the basic levels of minimum wage, jobs, and many other areas. it shoud be that 1/3 of the poor and unemployed of ALL men and/or women are found to be incarcerated. nothing is ever simple, but ideas do exist to work on recitifying much; they just don't happen to be important to the rich in power. more things to think on.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 8:54:29 PM   
IronBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

This is one of the basic conundrums; how to use the death penalty on the guilty and cull the innocent from the punishment. If this could somehow be resolved, many death penalty opponents would drop their objection. However, although the penalty could be reserved for fewer cases with greater proof; this would reduce the chance of executing an innocent person but would not eliminate the outside chance of an innocemt being executed. Everyone (apart from Texas proponents) agrees the system needs reform but nobody agrees as to how and the political will is not there as no pol wants the reputation of "soft on crime". The present system in Florida sucks; as i imagine it does elsewhere.

candystripper


I can see no solution in this debate. I can understand but veomently disagree with the slogan "Kill em all and let God sort em out!" I out grew that many eons ago.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 9:28:05 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		One thing that strikes me odd about the Death Penalty in the US is how some other countries view it. For example, if you are going to kill someone your best bet is to flee to the Country of France. If and when you get caught, France will refuse to deport you back to the USA untill an agreement is made that the Death Penalty can't be a punishment of your sentence. And to think, France is the country most famous for decapatation in the past.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 10:20:33 PM   
stef


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Status: offline 		Or you could just drive to Canada since they have the same policy of not granting extradition for capital cases. No passport required (until December 31, 2006) and no plane ticket needed.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 10:29:59 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
If and when you get caught, France will refuse to deport you back to the USA untill an agreement is made that the Death Penalty can't be a punishment of your sentence. And to think, France is the country most famous for decapatation in the past.


You prefer to repeat your own mistakes endlessly, or what?


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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/25/2005 11:59:45 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

You prefer to repeat your own mistakes endlessly, or what?


What's the mistake in murdering someone who commited murder? So there's the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right"
And we can say two deaths don't make a life. We can debate Justice, Vengence, and Punishment but most murders and serial killers are very likely to continue killing when the opprotunity occurs. Why do you think Charles Manson never makes parole? Untill he and others like him die, there's never the 100% garuntee that they won't kill again.

Any how it is nice that the USA now only gives the death penalty to murderers. Before then, it was given to horse thieves, ppl who stole anything worth over $1000 as grand theft, those who didn't give a judge a good impression, and etc etc etc...
I'm sure some if not most of us can be glad that the USA has evolved in changing its standards on what qualifies a person to be sentence to death. I'd like to see some rapist and alcoholic drives straped in the chair myself but then again killing is just to good for some people. It's good to see a cold blooded killer put down for the saftey of the mass public.

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RE: The Death Penalty in the US - 11/26/2005 12:52:06 AM   
Wolf1020


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Status: offline 		Fangs-
I agree, and like I said before I think if anything we don't use it enough.

Now I can understand wrong place wrong time etc but odds are if you are found guilty especially today if forensics and DNA are used as evidence the odds are good that you are truly guilty. Personally I wouldn't mind one bit seeing murder's, rapists, child molesters, and a few other of the earths most vial wastes of life have a noose put around their neck and tossed off the side of a prison. Will a few innocent people be executed? Possibly. But the vast majority would be truly guilty. And I for one if I was going to be in prison for the rest of my life wrongly convicted or not I'd rather have that be a short life and get it over with. I go into more detail in my above posts.

Now for the record I do think that if you steal a car (going for modern equivalent of horse thief) the death penalty might be on the extreme side

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