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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 3:14:08 AM   
Termyn8or


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Though at times it doesn't seem so, people are keeping an open mind - at least enough to discuss the subject.

I used to read the NA newsletter every week back when Pierce wrote it, but since his death it seems to have turned into a bunch of whining and bitching. In one piece, called The Bums Are White Again, he made some very good points, and despite the title isn't all that racist in content. It speaks of what has been taken from us and what true wealth is. What it fails to mention is that the takers are equal opportunity takers and they take from everybody.

In the Turner Diaries, how did the Order get their hands on the nukes ? Due to corruption in the government. Due to PEOPLE in the government not having enough loyalty to keep it from happening. There is no amount of discontent, nor excusable sloth to make this right. But he envisioned it happening, at least in the story.

As far as being recruiting material, recruitability is in the mind of the reader, or the lack thereof. It didn't make me do anything, nor did it sway my views in any "positive" way. In fact it may be part of why I turned away from the ideas presented.

Reminds me of the time I used to take a bus to work. This kid, wearing a bunch of Nazi garb was trying to get on the bus without paying the fare. Giving the driver his sob story. The driver was Black, what was this kid stupid or what ? What I thought at the time was that I wanted to tell the kid something like "If you got White pride you got enough pride to get a fucking job and pay the fare like I did". That may sound racist, but that is not the intent.

I know someone who passed the firemen's physical test with flying colors, and claimed not to get the job because of racial quotas. What he failed to mention is that he is a convicted felon. Don't think that had anything to do with it do you ?

Nobody - of any race - can blame anyone else for their failures. And pride has no color. You have done what you have done. If you are proud of yourself good. If you are a fucking bum, oh well.

I find that common in racial groups, that there is a tendency to blame those of another race for their failures. But that is actually a more common flaw in people than one might think. It is not limited to racists. Everything bad that happens is someone else's fault.

Blacks do it too, not all, but some. They got a ticket because of racial profiling, but they forget to mention that they didn't stop at two stopsigns and were doing 50 in a 25, and had gone left of center three times.

It is always someone else's fault, no matter what. Linndale fined me nine hundred bucks because I am White, oh wait, could it be because of the DUI ?

I have been looking for a White group. Hispanics have their's and Blacks have their's, so we should have our's, but I keep finding people who constantly blame others for all the bad shit that happens to them. I have no respect for that. You create 90% of your own problems and I create 90% of mine. I know people who almost never admit they are wrong. I mean it takes about nine people to get them on the carpet so to speak, before they would ever consider the possibility that they were wrong. Guess when I don't answer the phone.

Pierce admitted that he made some mistakes in the Turner Diaries, but what's done is done. There were no plans for a rewrite. He also seemed to mellow with age. For those of you who think he was a crackpot, and claim to have an open mind there is a book written about him. It's called Diary Of A Dead Man's Deeds and was written by Robert Griffin.

Griffin intended to blast Pierce, but when he showed up and interviewed him said that he did not expect what he saw. He expected some little neonazi but what he found was a Real Man. The book is longish, about 400 pages, and you can tell this guy got coopted. Why did that happen ? Pierce was a compelling personality. And he made sense, to some, sometimes. Griffin later took to writing articles for the NA, and probably still does.

Pierce had an undying desire to leave a mark on the world, for good or for bad. Whether I agree or not I respect that. The rest of us live our lives and when we are dead it is as if we were never here. Might leave behind some offspring, but they are destined to the same fate.

Racial pride is good, for all races. And groups to support a race are just fine, as long as promoting and supporting the race is not at the expense of others. We are either takers or we are not.

The other oldsters here might remember real racism, actually bigotry. But I heard it from a real oldster. My Father, down south on his way to training at a USAF base. Maybe we don't deserve our own group, maybe we have become that decadent.

One incident, he was on a bus, he was sitting up front talking to the driver. At one point the driver stops the bus and goes to the back where a bunch of Black people were riding and says "I told you N______ to pack it in, otherwise I am putting you off the bus". There were plenty of open seats.

But that doesn't come close to the other thing he said. A Black guy whistled at a White Woman. Well the local yokels lynched him for that and wrapped his body in chain for weight, threw him in the river. They found the body and at the inquest the coroner said "Open and shut case your honor, N______ stole more chain than he could swim with". The Black Man's name was Emmet Hill.

The sins of the Fathers will be visited on the sons. Perhaps we don't deserve our own group. Perhaps this is the price we pay for that supremacy all those years. And we are paying dearly, we are losing our culture, with wiggers embracing Black culture and the apparent difficulty in even discussing the subject.

I have some rap music in my collection. I got 2live Crew, Banned In The USA, which is something that I like. I got Snoops Gin And Juice, along with the hillbilly version by Alan Jackson and a few others. Pump my woofers, that's what I bought them for. And Mowtown, I got a shitload of Mowtown.

Music has no color, money has no color, pride has no color, respect has no color.

That's my view today. It wasn't always that way.

And there is one other thing, my opinion. If you are going to claim to be superior to anyone, BE SUPERIOR. Do something.

T

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 3:43:40 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

I read it after an aquaintence of mine (Alan Berg, a Denver local radio talk show host) was gunned down by neo-nazis outside his home. The jerks they arrested for the murder cited the book as one of their "inspirations." So, I was trying to understand what kind of spiders these guys had in their brains.


Bipolarber, I hear ya.  Why aren't you leftist guys for the death penalty?  I just don't get that.  The idiots that were responsible for Berg's murder are not worthy of sympathy.  But most of them are still alive.  As far as I'm concerned, they all should have been hung. 

The guys that dragged James Byrd to his death were fans of this book.  Texas sentenced them to death, and GWB agreed.  But left wingers still gave him shit about this.  Why? 

Is it really hard for y'all on the left of center to accept that we don't want this garbage in our circles? 

I'm serious, why don't you want pieces of shit like this exterminated?

(in reply to bipolarber)
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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 3:47:49 AM   
Thadius


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Term,

I wouldn't consider myself an old timer (not even close yet), but I remember the racism of my youth.  I grew up in Bridgeport, and had family in Canaryville (neighborhoods on the southside of Chicago), I still remember the various marches, protests, and small racial riots.  I remember seeing folks lynched under the viaducts that seperated the white and black neighborhoods, I remember the permanant metal gates that were put in on most of the viaducts between those neighborhoods to prevent any travel (pedestrian or vehicular) on the streets.  We as a country have come a long way, and there is still further to go.

The Turner Diaries, Mein Kampf, The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, were required reading for a sociology course I took a couple years back.  They definitely opened my eyes to some of the radical beliefs on all sides of the spectrum, it also pointed out the similarities that each of them had to the others, the playing on the fears of ignorance, using that ignorance to inspire hatred, using that hatred to bring about some irrational notion of peace and prosperity.

I have read them all, sometimes shaking my head, sometimes jaw dropped that somebody could believe such things.  Just as an example, because I am not sure if many of you are familiar with the Isis papers...
quote:

The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors written by Frances Cress Welsing 1990

On both St. Valentine’s Day and Mother’s Day, the white male gives gifts of chocolate candy with nuts…. If his sweetheart ingests "chocolate with nuts," the white male can fantasize that he is genetically equal to the Black male…. Is it not also curious that when white males are young and vigorous, they attempt to master the large brown balls, but as they become older and wiser, they psychologically resign themselves to their inability to master the large brown balls? Their focus then shifts masochistically to hitting the tiny white golf balls in disgust and resignation — in full final realization of white genetic recessiveness


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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 5:33:50 AM   
Alumbrado


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How exactly did the Protocols promise to bring about peace and prosperity?

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 5:55:20 AM   
SailCapt


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Ok, so you asked and I'm going to answer. Why don't we liberals want the death penalty.. what is it that keeps us wanting the scum we all agree are so heinous, alive. Let me give you a set of reasons and you can choose to either agree or disagree, but at least for me they are the reasons.

1) I believe in the best of the government, but I also believe in the worst. There was a time, and it is probably still that time, when people in authority, in power, had the ability to create and manipulate evidence to ensure that people who are "trouble makers" are dealt with and removed from society. The classic frame up. I believe it happened and continues to happen. I don't trust the government to prosecute for the crime, but instead to prosecute the prejudice.

2) I believe that the criminal justice system even when operating as perfectly as it can, still makes mistakes. I believe it's possible that men who we think are guilty are in fact innocent. I can live with the idea that we will steal 20 years from a man's life, but I don't think it's conscionable to take a man's life by mistake.

3) I believe in the sanctity of human life, I really am pro-life. I don't think we elevate ourselves or our society when we stoop to the level of the men we are killing. I don't understand how killing a man shows that killing a man is immoral. I do not believe in an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, because I believe that leads to a nation of blind toothless people.

4) Finally, I think that life with out the possibility of parole, is by far a more difficult punishment to endure then death. In death you've ended the punishment. You've made it quick and easy and it's over. By making a convict live 20 or 30 or 40 years knowing that it is for the things done wrong, I think you make a much stronger statement about the depth of the mistake.


Finally, I guess I would say that I would say I believe it's better to let 10,000 guilty men not be executed to prevent one innocent man from being executed. There's no appeal from death.



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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 6:02:37 AM   
Termyn8or


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Thad, your post was fine, cogent and to the point, but that quote IMO was gibberish. I know you didn't write it, and were using it as a negative example.

You really read all of it, the Protocols ? Do you remember enough of it to discuss it ? I would love to know one other human being who has read and understands the Protocols. I judge it only on it's content, nothing else.

If you got to the end of the Protocols, you saw something. I don't believe the Bible either, but I cannot say there is no wisdom in it. Shrouded by anecdote of course, but it is there.

My Father is absolutely not religious, yet he has read the entire Bible and the Book Of Mormon. When the Mormons come to the door, he has issues, and he is worse than a preacher, This one eleven and that seven thirteen, shit like that. From different parts of their own book, that they are coming here to promote, or something.

He did not have to answer the door naked, they just come around alot less. Now with the Jehovah's Witnesses maybe he did. They just come and leave their literature between my screendoor and door. Nice old Lady drops it off. I have told her that I am not of her faith, but I mean no harm or anything, I just do not believe. But in coming she is doing what she thinks is right, and that is respectable. I would never insult her in any way, and I have told her that I am not about to be converted, but sometimes you find an article that is interesting.

I respect that old Woman, and her view. She is doing what she thinks is right. I don't agree with her beliefs, but she is out there doing something. Same with Pierce, he went against the grain and was willing to be hated by millions for his opinion. He didn't care what anyone else thought about his ideaology or opinions, he expressed them anyway. That is what is respectable about the Man. I don't agree with him, but that's not the point.

In that one way I try to be like Pierce. I speak my mind, and let the chips fall where they may. A couple of people have me hidden and blocked, and Mod 11 has me on "speed spank" as DA I think put it. But I think if you ignore certain aspects of life, even if your ignorance is not complete, it is the same thing.

You think I agree with everyone who writes for or writes in to AFP ? These anti-abortion people who never adopted a kid in their life ? Hippocrites. But they do bring up some valid points in other matters.

I think people have a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater so to speak. You make a judgment that someone is off center, ripped, or even a crackpot, and then everything else they say must be total bullshit. This is simply not true.

Even Charlie Manson, something he said during an interview in prison with Joel Rose impressed me. I already knew, but Manson presented it differently. It was a psychological fact, but not quite presented in the textbook sense. Remember Manson never killed anyone, he is there for manipulating others to do so. I could easily do that if I chose, but I choose not to. It is that simple. Just don't.

As far as the TD go, a nice fiction, a nice fantasy, but it could never happen now. Even a genius would have to have access already to get into a government facility with nukes. You can't read it because the fantasy does not go the way you want ?

Then  I guess Native Americans shouldn't watch old western movies. Gunsmoke is a tossup. But the movies don't show all the really nasty shit. And they don't show other things. They don't show that there was a bounty on buffalo. And they can't show why. The Native Americans you call Indians used buffalo dor meat, skins, everything. The buffalo was essential to their survival. The bounty on buffalo was an attempt at genocide, and if not it certainly qualifies as ethnic cleansing.

What does everybody think, that we live in a lovey dovey world here ? It is nasty, and it always has been. Who the fuck are you trying to kid here ?

Turner Diaries, all the rest, it is not so bad, in fact it can be quite compelling, at times. I too was unimpressed with the style in which the TD was written, but in case noone noticed, the schools are not doing the greatest job. What would you do ? Send people to the dictionary every five minutes and destroy the story for them ?

Also, on a side note know what Pierce's birthday was ? September eleventh. And yes he was alive for the attack on the WTC. Whaddya think of that ?

T

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 6:10:50 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

As far as the TD go, a nice fiction, a nice fantasy, but it could never happen now.



You need to rethink your literary taste.

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 6:18:04 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

The other major casualty was alot of legitimate (ie pro constitutional) militias and patriot movements got dragged into the same mud as the extremist fringe groups.  I don't even want to think about the various 4th Amendment violations that occured to sieze the names of members, check for legal ownership of firearms, and verify there were no "illegal activist" types involved.


So, you want to help the tourists!....err,... I mean terrorists!

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/26/2008 6:25:28 AM >


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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 6:43:57 AM   
Termyn8or


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Maybe so kit, but what's been read has been read. And I have a very high retention and comprehension level, so what's done is done. I have also read the Boble, and pick out a plum of wisdom here and there. How is that different from reading the Protocols, the Koran, the Talmud (y'all got some splaining to do on that one) or anything else ?

Even talking about Mein Kompf, you know what that Man did ? He almost took over half of Europe. A madman, maybe, but his words are a part of history.

Here, just for you. I believe Hitler made a mistake. I do believe he refused to bestow a medal on an olympic runner named Jesse Owens.

That was a bad mistake. And I will tell you why. Hitler did alot for that country and they still enjoy the fruits of some of his plan. But he did screw up really bad.

This is the olympics, this is where a bunch of people come from other countries to test their skill and strength against one another. One person, the best of the best represents their country. Sometimes more but you get my drift here, and Owens won. Fair and square. For him to do what he did, he was saying that it is only fair and square when we win. Otherwise we whine or something.

You can't be a leader with that attitude. You fucking lost, give the guy his medal. Show the world. Well he showed the world alright, and got his ass kicked into the ground. Really Black people were not his enemy, he was after Jews. But he thought that Owens was akin to an animal, and as such the race was unfair. That it was like running a race against a lion or tiger.

I have had this explained to me in detail, but from the other side. But I did not embrace their beliefs obviously, if I had I would not be here.

T

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 8:13:26 AM   
bipolarber


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Slaveboy,

Since the question was directed at me, I guess I'll try to cobble together an answer for you, even though I tend to agree with Robert Heinlien's take on this issue more than I tow a hardline "leftie" agenda on it. I personally feel that, in extreme cases, people do deserve to be put to death, simply to remove them from the possibility of harming anyone else, ever again... but this is just me.

The problems I have with the death penalty in this country pretty much match Sailcapt's views, but I would add this:

1) The death penalty is often inequitably applied. In TX (the "he needed killin' state) the number of racial minorities who get the death penalty, even adjusted per capita, is WAAAAY out of proportion. So, there seems to be something else at work here.

2) Almost weekly, we hear of new DNA or other evidence being found that clears someone of their murder charges. The fact that the system is fallible means that occasionally, someone innocent is murdered by the state, in retibution for a crime they are not guilty of committing. THAT is offensive to me.

3) and, as the old saying goes: "If you kill 'em, he won't learn nothin'..." Each of us are born, we live out our lives and according to judeo-christian ethics, we all are responsible for our own soul. By presuming that the state itself has the right to take a human life (even that of murdering scum) it is elevated to a status it has neither earned nor can it be trusted with: that of the giver of life and death. (Honestly, after the last eight years, would you really want to be in an America where slime like Carl Rove has a say over if you live or die? Fuck that!) By not killing them (in some cases) you leave the door open for their still being able to do something with their lives...

AS I said, these are some of the reasons I have. Sailcapt has the better arguments, I agree. These are just personal ones. As I said before, in extreme cases, where there can be no doubt about guilt, where there is no remorse shown, where the crime is so vile, then yes, I say "Screw their liberty, give them DEATH!"

The guys from "The Order" who killed Allan deserved it.
Harris and Klebold would have deserved it.
Henderson and McKinney certainly deserved it.
McVey deserved it.

But, doesn't a guy who killed someone during a gas station robbery (which he was robbing to feed his family), where the owner pulled a gun on the robber, at least deserve as much mercy to be allowed to see his kids grow up... even if it is from behind bars? If there is no room for variation, then what kind of "justice system" are we building here?

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 8:14:10 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Really Black people were not his enemy, he was after Jews. But he thought that Owens was akin to an animal, and as such the race was unfair. That it was like running a race against a lion or tiger.



Had I been born in Germany around Hitler's time, I most probably would have perished, starved, or tortured, or gassed, or all three. I find your equivocation over the man disturbing: but we've been over this before.

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 8:53:07 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Really Black people were not his enemy, he was after Jews. But he thought that Owens was akin to an animal, and as such the race was unfair. That it was like running a race against a lion or tiger.



Had I been born in Germany around Hitler's time, I most probably would have perished, starved, or tortured, or gassed, or all three. I find your equivocation over the man disturbing: but we've been over this before.
A simple but highly effective response...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 10:20:22 AM   
Owner59


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 "I find your equivocation over the man disturbing: but we've been over this before."


Yeah,hitler wasn`t all bad.

There must have been at least some nice things about the fella.

He made the trains run on time. (to Polish death camps)

WWII wasn`t all his fault All men make mistakes...

Built a great hi-way system and military and stuff

People are way to down on the guy.Maybe history will forgive him someday...


I need to take a shower.I feel dirty from this....





< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/26/2008 10:22:32 AM >


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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 1:45:31 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
You really read all of it, the Protocols ? Do you remember enough of it to discuss it ? I would love to know one other human being who has read and understands the Protocols. I judge it only on it's content, nothing else.

Why does it not surprise me that you've read the protocols and think highly of that piece of crap.

I've read the whole thing, much as it sickened me to do so. It is made up. The original work was a satiric piece against Napolean III written by Maurice Joly and not anything about Jews. This is proven fact and can be verified by simply comparing the two texts.

It has no merit and is certainly not an instruction manual for a new elder of a world wide jewish conspiracy.

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 3:04:09 PM   
Alumbrado


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It is made up....

....It has no merit and is certainly not an instruction manual for a new elder of a world wide jewish conspiracy.

That's the part I was waiting for somebody to append.

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 3:12:47 PM   
kittinSol


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Thing is, term tries to wiggle in his admiration for 'The Protocols' on a regular basis, and always gets called on it. He berates those of us who express knowledge and disgust at that piece of trash, and insults us by saying that we aren't 'open minded' about opinions that dissent from ours.

As if respecting that garbage of a 'document' was a sign of intellectual balance...

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 3:47:10 PM   
Thadius


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Term,

I agree with you about respecting somebody that is willing to state their beliefs, regardless of the fallout of public opinion.

The one commonality amongst all of those books I mentioned, is that there was just enough "fact" put in to hide the bullshit, at least from those that are already prone to agree with the authors message.

As for the Protocols, I am not sure I versed well enough in the book (not to mention the various versions, reprints), to discuss in great detail the minutia, but discussion is always welcome... if for not other reason than to help increase my own understanding.

The quote I provided from the Isis Papers, was meant as a negative example.  The author's position is that melonin is what determines the intelligence level of a person, and thus goes on to discuss the symbolism of various colors in the world, and how they all revolve around a desire to be black.

I indeed enjoy reading the books of people that I disagree with, it gives me a better idea of their positions, thinking, and how they are going to relate those to the rest of us.

Just some thoughts,
Thadius

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 4:51:51 PM   
kittinSol


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It's not a matter of 'disagreeing' with 'people who have a different opinion'.

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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 5:06:23 PM   
Alumbrado


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And how exactly does one 'understand the minutiae' of a complete work of fakery? 
Surely you aren't claiming to have learned something about the viewpoint of the Elders?

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Turner diaries - 7/26/2008 5:09:40 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's not a matter of 'disagreeing' with 'people who have a different opinion'.


Indeed, the reason I read these books was because of it being part of the sylabus.  However, I am in general in favor of reading materials that people with opposing viewpoints (including the extremists) publish, and disseminate.  It allows for a better understanding of what their tactics might be, and or what kind of propaganda they are spewing.  It isn't even that they have a different opinion, it is more that they have a different worldview (seperationists, supremacists, hate mongers, etc...).

Living in Chicago, it was damn near impossible to not know who Louis (Walcott) Farrakhan (aka Calyspo Louis in some circles) was, however many folks only have a limited knowledge of his beliefs or what he was preaching... In that light, I would watch any of his televised speeches, and read whatever materials I could get my hands on.  Being informed in my opinion is much better than remaining ignorant or sticking one's head in the sand and pretending the extremists don't exist.

Just my personal opinions,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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