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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 12:30:57 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Not to a lot of people. 

And the record on Vaz and Rushdie doen't show anything about him wanting Rushdie punished for blaspheming against the Pope, but rather for violating sharia decrees....  hardlly the non-religious standard being proclaimed.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 12:49:18 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Not to a lot of people. 

And the record on Vaz and Rushdie doen't show anything about him wanting Rushdie punished for blaspheming against the Pope, but rather for violating sharia decrees.... 

oh hell...if blasting the pope was a punishable offense most of us would be handed our heads on a collection plate.


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 1:08:43 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What this means for the putative separation of church and state is rather unsettling. It implies a cherry picking approach to the constitution.

Not true.  As these are elected representatives, the Constitution has no relevance to the topic at hand.

The Constitution forbids Congress from enacting any law respecting the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof.  If the people, in exercising their right of the franchise, opt not to vote for atheists, nothing in the Constitution suggests they do otherwise.

The Constitution is properly silent on how people "ought" to vote.



...fair enough, point taken. What i was suggesting though is that the general voting population are taking a cheerry picking approach to the spirit of the constitution. You're quite right in suggesting that there are not, indeed ought not, to be any legal constraint on how people vote.  That notwithstanding though, the constitution is, right or wrong, seen by many as the moral blueprint not just for legislators but for US society as a whole. It is that society that seems to me to be cherry picking.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 1:58:10 PM   
RCdc


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 3:39:25 PM   
sirsholly


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Status: offline 		i am certain you can provide the link to back that up.


< Message edited by sirsholly -- 8/28/2008 3:46:54 PM >

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 3:05:47 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		And you can post links also to back up your ideas I am sure?
 
.But.
Why do I have to provide a link when anyone can go to a catholic priest and a christian one and ask them to relate doctrine?  It's very simple.
 
Besides, I prefere to do the teaching as God intended.
 
First you would have to define what you (personally) identify as being 'christian'.  You attend church as you have stated, what is your churches stance as well as your personal belief? 
 
They have different agendas.  They have different doctrine and ways.  The only similarity that they hold fast is that christ is the way to go.  They do use the same bible, but it is interpreted differently.  Catholics have idols, Christians don't(or at least shouldn't according to doctrine)... christians do not believe in the authority of the vatican nor the pope, christianity stems from catholicism absolutely, but it is certainly isn't the same as, in the same way as JWs aren't.  It would be misleading to claim a catholic to be a christian and visa versa.  Being seperate doesn't demonize one or the other.
 
The fundemental core of christianity is that to be a christian one must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and believe him to be the only way to God and follow the teachings of Christ and no other.  If the basis you are using is that they both believe in christ and have a personal relationship with christ, then sure, but then you could group in any number of sects or religons and call them christian.  The Roman Catholic Church however has very defined and preset 'rules' of being a Roman Catholic, and knowing Jesus is only one of them - you have to take a course of teaching.
 
Can you be a Roman Catholic AND a Christian?  Absolutely.  But to try and make them the same would be a denial of someones individual and personal faith.
 
And besides and I believe you are missing the point, Vaz identifies himself as a Roman Catholic which is what the post I made is about.  I am merely pointing out his standpoint is that he is not a christian nor a muslim, but a Roman Catholic.
 
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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 3:32:42 AM   
sirsholly


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Status: offline 		i simply asked you to post a link to back up your statement that catholicism is not a Christian religion. You provided your OPINION which, by the way...i agree with for the most part. But Christianity covers many religions and catholicism is one of them.


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 4:02:33 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Holly.  If I provided a link to back it up, there are equal that you could post to conter-act.  I rarely post links
What I posted wasn't just personal - it is doctrine.
Christianity is a religon by itself.  Not one that is all encompassing.  If RC was christianity, then RCs would say they were christians, not identify personally as RCs.  In the UK, if I was to ask someone what religion they were, the answers are always the same - christian, muslim, JW, hindu, RC, etc.  I have never had a person who is quaker, baptist, etc identify as such - but christian.
 
I think the mix up here is denominational.  I was speaking as christianity as the religon itself, not the collection of denominations as you seem to be.
 
And it was vital to the post to identify Vaz as a RC, because he has been very vocal on his faith and in turn, the events that he was involved with over here.
 
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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 4:07:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Not to a lot of people. 

And the record on Vaz and Rushdie doen't show anything about him wanting Rushdie punished for blaspheming against the Pope, but rather for violating sharia decrees....  hardlly the non-religious standard being proclaimed.


Vaz is a nobody or at least he is just a junior minister which is the same thing but in a democracy he is allowed to air his views, just like Rushdie is. I have to admit, he is something of a hypocrite but then, he is a politician so no surprise there. If criticizing religion or religious figures makes someone religious then I'm religious because I think religion is a load of nonsense, the pope is a wanker, the arch bishop of canterbury a tosser etc etc etc until I've got through the lot of them.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 4:12:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Holly.  If I provided a link to back it up, there are equal that you could post to conter-act.  I rarely post links
What I posted wasn't just personal - it is doctrine.
Christianity is a religon by itself.  Not one that is all encompassing.  If RC was christianity, then RCs would say they were christians, not identify personally as RCs.  In the UK, if I was to ask someone what religion they were, the answers are always the same - christian, muslim, JW, hindu, RC, etc.  I have never had a person who is quaker, baptist, etc identify as such - but christian.
 
I think the mix up here is denominational.  I was speaking as christianity as the religon itself, not the collection of denominations as you seem to be.
 
And it was vital to the post to identify Vaz as a RC, because he has been very vocal on his faith and in turn, the events that he was involved with over here.
 
the.dark.

 
Roman Catholicism is a christian denomination just like C of E or Reformists, Lutherans, Orthodx etc etc. Just because they identify themselves as the one and only true christians doesn't make them not christian just as all the other denominations believe they are the true christians and know what's in god's mind.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 4:18:18 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Yes, as I said, it was denominational.  My post was about Vaz, who was quite outspoken that he was not 'christian' but identified as RC. Go take it up with him - he has a website.
 
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< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 8/29/2008 4:19:56 AM >

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 4:20:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Yes, as I said, it was denominational.  My post was about Vaz. Go take it up with him - he has a website.
 
the.dark.

 
OK someone pissed on your cornflakes, not to worry, it will give them some flavour.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 4:21:55 AM   
RCdc


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 8:00:25 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		Actually semantics aside thats a really interesting point the.darkness, its true though in the UK you ask someone of their religion they either say christian (meaning most of the denominations) or catholic, ive never heard a catholic here describe themselves as christian how odd

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 8:01:35 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


I've spent quite sometime in America, going to church is like going to a club, there is social pressure to do it and to be seen to do it.




your ignorant generalization could be offensive to those of us Americans who go to church for the right reasons....if your opinion mattered.



What are the right reasons for believing in superstition?

I can understand people saying they believe for political reasons, that is being rational if not entirely honest.


What does that have to do with "your ignorant generalization"?

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 8:04:28 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		From a total external point of view i DO think that as a rule American politicians are far more vocal about their faith than British ones, however i dont see that as either a good or bad thing its just due to the nature of the culture I think

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 8:12:49 AM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		According to Wikipedia, Roman Cathelic is not only considered a christian church, but the world's largest christian church....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

The Roman Catholic Church, officially known as the Catholic Church,[1][2] is the world's largest Christian church and represents over half of all Christians and one-sixth of the world's population.[3][4] It is made up of one Western church (the Latin Rite) and 22 Eastern Catholic churches, divided into 2,782 jurisdictional areas around the world. The Church looks to the Pope, currently Benedict XVI, as its highest human authority in matters of faith, morality and Church governance.[5] The Church community is composed of an ordained ministry and the laity. Either may be members of religious communities like the Dominicans, Carmelites, Franciscans, Jesuits, Salesians and many others.

But I am sure you know more than they do, so please, carry on.....

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 8:20:34 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		More than wiki?
Probably.
 
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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 8:24:41 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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Status: offline 		"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death."

"If churches want to play the game of politics, let them pay admission like everyone else."

Quotes by George Carlin


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/29/2008 8:27:39 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Actually semantics aside thats a really interesting point the.darkness, its true though in the UK you ask someone of their religion they either say christian (meaning most of the denominations) or catholic, ive never heard a catholic here describe themselves as christian how odd


Maybe it is a cultural thing?  Maybe it works in reverse in the states, but over here in the UK, all the RCs I have known have been adamant in being called RC and don't appriciate being called christian.  I am sure, just as anywhere, there are exceptions, but that has been my experience.  I have found that any christian friends I have that are american cannot fathom the divide that seems to exist here, and even in europe.
 
the.dark.

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