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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:43:12 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

England, Italy, Greece, Spain,  Denmark et al. have had state churches or ties to powerful religions for centuries, Aren't people still put on criminal trial for violating canon over there? Isn't that where some churches can levy taxes, require monarchs to be church members, and even maintain armed forces?



Monarchies tend to have established religions because the whole concept of royalty is that the monarch is anointed by god.  Interestingly, the move to disestablish the Church of England is being led by the heir to the throne, who wishes to be known as "Defender of Faith", not "Defender of the Faith".  You must distinguish between constitutional monarchs and absolute monarchs.

As for canon law, blasphemy is the last one still extant (imminently to be repealed) but there's a debate to be had about whether EU law supersedes it anyway.  Last prosecution: when dirt was new.

Trouble is, many laws have a religious basis.  Where exactly is the crime in bigamy, for instance?   I mean, as long as you invite wife no.1 to wedding no.2?

Anyway, we all know you're much too clever and cultured to have been one of those Americans who attempt to "do Europe" in a week... so do try to appear a bit more informed, there's a good chap.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:54:49 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Church of England isn't even a state Church, even though it is an established church.

From the Church of England's own website:
quote:

Her Majesty the Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, and she also has a unique and special relationship with the Church of Scotland, which is a Free Church. In the Church of England she appoints archbishops, bishops and deans of cathedrals on the advice of the Prime Minister. The two archbishops and 24 senior bishops sit in the House of Lords, making a major contribution to Parliament's work.

That is the organization of the Church of England as of today, not 300 years ago.


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:56:19 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

...Last prosecution: when dirt was new.


The criminal trial for violating church law in Denmark a few years ago was 'when dirt was new'?   And it was meatcleaver who announced he gone on holiday in the US and therefor knew all about the entire country, not the other way other way around...


(BTW, the laws on bigamy and other things that would muddy up lines of succession had a distinctly political impetus, since things like taxation are involved).

But thanks for demonstrating convincingly what 'a bit more informed' means in your case...

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 8/28/2008 6:59:39 AM >

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:20:12 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
The criminal trial for violating church law in Denmark a few years ago was 'when dirt was new'?  


If you'd like to tell us precisely how many years ago and for what, so we can all benefit from your rather obvious education?

I love the way simply alluding vaguely to one point, for you, sets aside all the others that I made.  Also, its completely misleading to assign a common identity or spiritual ethos to all European states - particularly if you choose to support this by arguing from the specific to the general.  Naturally, among all these countries, isolated examples can be found to support virtually anything - demonstrating that they are continent-wide beliefs requires more proof.

Equally, with Celtic's belief that the bishops in the House of Lords signify anythiung other than tradition - 22 bishops out of 760 Lords hardly constitutes a theocracy.  And our second house works differently to your own (as, no doubt, does the Danes).

The reason Blair stood out as a British PM and as a politician is that he was very public about his faith.  He was lampooned as the vicar of Britain for years because we tend to find it a bit pointless to have someone publicise that which is rightly private.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:20:23 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I think you are wrong.


Because of course, actually dealing with facts would upset your fantasy.



No because a European politician ranting on about god and faith in a way American politicians do would haemerage votes and not gain power. Western Europeans have had their gut full of mixing politics and religion a long time ago and don't want any more of it.

Actually Amunbrado, my fantasy has more reality that your reality.


Which is why you have to resort to juvenile antics like mangling my name, or making up ealsiy debunked assertions about the history of the Church of England, (or history in general, as you have on the slave trade, etc.), and making up straw arguemtns that other people never said.

And when I and others here provide references, whether the dictonary, history texts, or even poitical economy theorists like Chiricos, it isn't 'my reality', it is an invitation to learn more about the world than can be gotten from your agitprop...

But, like all 'true believers' and blind faithful followers, you reject logic and documentation... apparently your illusions can't withstand open discourse.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:27:41 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Equally, with Celtic's belief that the bishops in the House of Lords signify anythiung other than tradition

And what does the fact that Queen Elizabeth II, on advice from the Prime Minister, appoints those bishops and archbishops signify?

What does the fact that the Church of England's Supreme Governor is the British monarch signify?

(Answer:  They signify the Church of England is a state church)


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:35:23 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		For "advice from the Prime Minister", read "instructions".  You just don't get British politics, though you won't accept it.

How many cabinet members in Washington, past or present, were publicly known to be atheists?

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:40:08 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

(Answer:  They signify the Church of England is a state church)



Remember how the Church of England came about, and know that it is seen as a bit of a national joke over there.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:41:47 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
The criminal trial for violating church law in Denmark a few years ago was 'when dirt was new'?  


If you'd like to tell us precisely how many years ago and for what, so we can all benefit from your rather obvious education?

I love the way simply alluding vaguely to one point, for you, sets aside all the others that I made.  Also, its completely misleading to assign a common identity or spiritual ethos to all European states - particularly if you choose to support this by arguing from the specific to the general.  Naturally, among all these countries, isolated examples can be found to support virtually anything - demonstrating that they are continent-wide beliefs requires more proof.

Equally, with Celtic's belief that the bishops in the House of Lords signify anythiung other than tradition - 22 bishops out of 760 Lords hardly constitutes a theocracy.  And our second house works differently to your own (as, no doubt, does the Danes).

The reason Blair stood out as a British PM and as a politician is that he was very public about his faith.  He was lampooned as the vicar of Britain for years because we tend to find it a bit pointless to have someone publicise that which is rightly private.


Your points? Are you a sock puppet?  The 'point' that was made, was that if the US would pass a law mandating atheism for all involved in government in any manner, it would cause the rest of the world to approve, and it is that 'point' which is falling apart under closer examination of the fact that the rest of the world has intertwined religion and government since long before there was a US, and continue to do so, whether the Vatican, or the Church of England, or the state churches of Denmark, etc.

If you want to pretend that Furlong and Groesbel indictments, or the Danish trial resulting in a criminal convition with punishment by fine took place when 'dirt was new', to maintain the 'only in America' fiction, don't let anything persuade you otherwise.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:44:44 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
For "advice from the Prime Minister", read "instructions".  You just don't get British politics, though you won't accept it.

How does the nuance you mention alter the fact that the Church of England is a state church?

(Answer: it doesn't.)


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:45:55 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Remember how the Church of England came about, and know that it is seen as a bit of a national joke over there.

Remember that joke or no, the Church of England is still a state church.


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:49:57 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		OK, Name one former president who was known as an atheist.  Just one, for crying out loud.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 7:52:14 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		How could I forget  ? You've been hammering the same point for the past five posts or something.

What you fail to see is that the name 'state church' is pretty much irrelevant for the Anglican church. It has no influence on public policy, and Queenie's power is symbolic at best. A little like Uncle Sam .

To go back to the original post: religion isn't important in British politics: most British people don't give a fuck and in fact, are pretty suspicious of the church.

That's a fact.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 8:09:41 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

To go back to the original post: religion isn't important in British politics:


And again, the OP is also calling for America to pass laws prohibiting anyone in government from having religious freedom, so that other countries will approve of the separation of church and state...

But which of those other countries have done the same or even gotten rid of things like the Vatican, Church of England, constitutional articles giving the Lutheran church government powers, etc? ( hint, Sweden is off to a good start... after how long?)

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 8:17:09 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And again, the OP is also calling for America to pass laws prohibiting anyone in government from having religious freedom, so that other countries will approve of the separation of church and state...



Nowhere did I see Aneirin advocate the prohibition of religious freedom for anybody: he did hint that people in government should not let their religion interfere with policy making: and I agree with that wholeheartedly. This doesn't mean policians have to abandon their religious or spiritual beliefs: rather, that they should leave them where they belong. Inside themselves. After all, it's between them and whatever they believe in, not between them and the rest of us.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 8:20:31 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Just think, if the US shelved this use of religion, it was banned in politics, what message would that send out to the world, bearing in mind, just about every nation on earth looks to the US and what it is upto to compare itself against ?


Riiiiight... nothing at all in there about prohibiting people from openly following their religous beliefs...

And another tap dance around why the rest of the world gets a pass

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 8:24:10 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Fuck the OP.  This is a social site not Hansard.  Debates move on.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 8:24:59 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Aaargh, you've done it again: you need to learn how to address a quote back to its author. It's terrible manners, this habit of yours, you know? It makes it look like posters said something they didn't say. Argh. Posting protocol hijack over  .

PS: Anyhow... I don't see anything about 'prohibition' there. You are making it look like the OP advocated 'prohibition'. He merely said 'banning it in politics', which I think was just a poor choice of words on his part.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/28/2008 8:27:38 AM >

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 8:31:02 AM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		That's lame, even for you.  Someone else other than myself broke up Aneirin's quote and didn't bother to reprint his name on every line, so I'm making up something that was never said but it doesn't matter because banned doesn't mean prohibited?




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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 8:44:24 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		I dont find there to be any difference.  But there it is different when taken out of the context it was placed in.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 8/28/2008 8:45:16 AM >

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