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RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/28/2008 7:16:23 PM   
StayOfExecution


Posts: 40
Joined: 8/25/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zechriel

Good evening!
Maybe the word "Fair" was misunderstood here or used incorrectly. I am not sure but what I know is that when I am punished..and yes I just was a few days ago...I would consider it "undermining my lesson" if Daddy were to tease or fondle me. Punishment to us is learning from not distracting from. And I would consider that distraction from my time of reflection. Also,to me it would confuse me as to if the punishment was a true punishment or if it was a mind trick( I hate cursing so I am not saying the f word) It would lead me to believe that the behavior that originally GOT me punished was maybe okay to do again since Daddy seems to enjoy touching or teasing me. Either way, I think it would confuse me and see him in a way as less than strict or "dom-ly" or whatever. Maybe I could say...."A negative behavior produces a swift and unpleasant response. To couple that response with positive or erotic emotions or sensations would be negating the point of the unpleasant response."
Wow, it must be late::rubs eyes::
Love,
Zechriel 


I agree with this post.  I've been reading all the responses on this thread and am surprised at how many posters just take the "oh well, it's Ds and you knew what you were signing up for, honey" attitude.  

Maybe the word "fair" was misused.  Maybe it should have been "justified.".  As a submissive, yes, I understand that I'm in a relationship based upon inequality, but that doesn't mean the D should just throw all caution to the wind, then pull rank and use that as an excuse to do whatever he feels like it without considering how detrimental the results may be to both the submissive and the relationship.

From my point of view, if my D was punishing me haphazardly and the punishments made no sense to me, or confused me, I would stop feeling respect and trust for him.  Ok, I may not agree with a punishment, or he may administer a punishment that turned out to be a mistake....it happens, and there's got to be some margin of error that's acceptable because Doms are human too.  But to just cop a cavalier attitude and say ..."oh well, it's what I feel like doing, I don't care if you get the lesson or the justification, just shut up and take it because you're the sub" is only going to render a confused and mistrustful submissive, or ultimately one who is out the door.

The way I see it, is if my Dom wants to tease and torture me,  then he gets to do that just because he can.  I'd have a lot more respect for a Dom who says "Hey, I feel like teasing you, get up against that wall and hold that dime there with your nose, and don't let it go,  no matter what I do to your body", than for a Dom who creates or extends a punishment so he can experience his kink without really owning it. 

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RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/28/2008 8:09:21 PM   
slaveinstockings


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Joined: 8/17/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

My guess is if she senses you are enjoying it (ie "fondling her") that it won't be a very effective punishment.  But I guess everyone is different.

even if you enjoy the fondling the punishment is trying to focus on keeping the dime against the wall while staying in your squat and withstanding the distractions.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/28/2008 8:13:16 PM   
LPslittleclip


Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline 		fair from a sub/slave perspective should be yes Ma'am/Sir. as far as playing while punishing it would confuse me as a sub. in training consistence is the key it should be related to the infraction as much as possible, the idea is to have the subject relate the punishment to the action so as to avoid doing so again. now in playing, it would be fun to keep the dime on the wall while being played with, in my opinion.

(in reply to StayOfExecution)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/28/2008 9:25:01 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

 If my dominant came to me and said your punishment for X will be Z .. then proceeded to change Z in the middle, it wouldn't take long before I didn't believe a word he says. Is that fair?

Bait and Switch isn't a good tactic to maintain trust. 


A D/s relationship is not an equitable arrangement.  However, I don’t believe that means the dominant should be unreasonable while wielding their authority.   
The rules and expectations need to be made clear and the dominant then needs to be consistent regarding what behaviors are acceptable or not.  It is my experience that switching the rules without prior notification leads to distress and confusion on the part of the submissive.  It also sets up a defeatist attitude; if one is never right then why bother to try? 
I’m not and hope to never again be in a dynamic where punishment is used as a tool.  I was twice in such a dynamic.  The first one was like living in a surreal world; he would set things up ( I called them the trick rules) so that I certainly would fail.  The only reason the second one worked is because he spelled out exactly what was a punishable offense on my part and also let me know what means he would use to mete it out. He never deviated from the parameters that he set. 
I guess I could say that the very concept of punishment is ‘unfair’. But the balance of power is on the dominant’s side.   That calls for accepting the responsibility to ensure the submissive understands what is happening, what will happen, and why. 
If a submissive ends up scratching their head while rubbing their sore bottom, (or nose in the OP’s case) if they wonder ‘what the hell was that?’, if they have to ask ‘was this fair?’ then I believe the dominant failed in their goal and the punishment was not effective. 


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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/29/2008 11:31:47 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveinstockings


quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

My guess is if she senses you are enjoying it (ie "fondling her") that it won't be a very effective punishment.  But I guess everyone is different.

even if you enjoy the fondling the punishment is trying to focus on keeping the dime against the wall while staying in your squat and withstanding the distractions.


Bravo!  Sheesh it took three pages to get to the point.  From what I could read from the OP the Dominant explained that the lesson was focus and concentration.  It's easy to focus when there are no distractions but how does that teach the lesson?  And where was your focus, Gr33nTOp?    Why it was on YOU and what YOU wanted and what YOU thought was fair. 

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/29/2008 12:05:17 PM   
tsatske


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Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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quote:

Why it was on YOU and what YOU wanted and what YOU thought was fair. 


THANK YOU!
That is really what I was saying when I asked questions about this thread in my last post.

Is it possible for a Dominant to be 'unfair', for lack of a better word - to make decisions regarding discipline or training that are not the best decisions? of course it is.
It might be a mistake. It might be misfocus on his part. It might be that he does not GET it. All of these things can happen.

Depending on the people in question - sometimes they can be cured with communication, sometimes not. If not, sometimes they are such a big deal that SOMETHING has to happen - sometimes not.

But, in this case, it really, really does not seem like THAT big a deal. I doubt he is 'ruining' her training with this. So what if she enjoys it? Where does this 'Uhm, Sir, you must stop doing that, I'm afraid I am enjoying it - HEY! I ORDERED YOU TO STOP PUNISHING ME LIKE THAT!' What is that about?

( okay, I say things almost exactly like that to Master all the time - but He knows I am just going for a laugh - and I usually get one. Usually the same laugh I get when I'm hollering 'Hey! Hard Limit! Hard Limit!') The fact that we joke about that whole thing might tell you what we think of it.....

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/29/2008 2:28:41 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveinstockings


quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

My guess is if she senses you are enjoying it (ie "fondling her") that it won't be a very effective punishment.  But I guess everyone is different.

even if you enjoy the fondling the punishment is trying to focus on keeping the dime against the wall while staying in your squat and withstanding the distractions.


Bravo!  Sheesh it took three pages to get to the point.  From what I could read from the OP the Dominant explained that the lesson was focus and concentration.  It's easy to focus when there are no distractions but how does that teach the lesson?  And where was your focus, Gr33nTOp?    Why it was on YOU and what YOU wanted and what YOU thought was fair. 


I can understand your point, and how you streamlined the point of the OP and made this comment based on the primary question of  "Is it fair."  However, there were actually two questions in the OP.  The first one ("Is it fair to do ABC?) which was asked before giving any details of the punishment.  And the second one ("Is it ok to do ABC in order to accomplish XYZ).   While I can't know the OP's exact meaning, these are two separate questions deserving two separate answers.

With regards to his first question, everyone who posted agrees that a Ds dynamic isn't equal and "fairness" isn't really the issue.

But the second question in which he asked if it was ok to fondle his sub in order to teach her to focus, was more ambiguous and became the gateway into the issue of the submissive possibly getting confused when sexuality is introduced into the punishment.

In my opinion, fairness isn't very important.  But "Ok" is.  I can think of tons of ways to teach concentration and focus without "fondling".  One would be doing calculus with rock music playing.  Of course it's the Dom's choice of how he's going to handle a punishment, or what the punishment will be.  But the question was "Is it ok".  And the reason it wouldn't be ok with some submissives is because they might become confused as to why their dom was including sexual arousal in a punishment.  The OP didn't mention what the infraction was, but he did mention "extending" the punishment (which would be a trust issue,because he originally told the sub it would be one thing, then he "extended" it to include "teasing" and "fondling".)   
Perhaps some men wouldn't become aroused by touching his woman's genitals and breasts, but so far I've never known one.  So, if my man was "teasing" and "fondling" me during a punishment, and likely becoming aroused by it, I'd have to wonder just how focused HE was on the actual infraction and correcting it.  Hence my answer..."no it's not ok",  why?  because you could be creating issues of mistrust and confusion when you "extend" punishment to include "teasing" and "fondling".   Furthermore, the sub herself might begin to enjoy the fondling and begin to associate punishment with sexual pleasure, which in my mind would cause it to be ineffective.  

Is it fair---No.  Does it have to be fair? No.  But is it ok?  Is it wise?  Guess it depends on the sub in question, but it wouldn't work well for me.


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/29/2008 5:57:58 PM   
Zechriel


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Good evening!
This is one of those times where I can see the differenes between our realationship and others relationships. Thank you for making me aware of this, sometimes Daddy drills into my head that we are "not like other couples" and "what is good for us, is good only for us".
  Daddy gives tons of cuddling time,which includes lots of things, as we se each other often during the week. So to have him do that DURING punishment is not called for. In fact , punishment clearly had time set aside with cuddling afterwards. he also knows how much I hate to be corrected-in any manner-so giving me mixed signals is a big no-no for us.
  I have heard over and over since I started this path and from slaves-Doms  communication is everything so there is no need NOT to tell me or explain to me. I have a very active, quick,and intelligent mind. Daddy knows I am "off on a mental tangent" when my eyes move upwards. I am not the perfect slave that does things without questioning or asking why, in fact I ask why alot. And Daddy does his best to expain to me. I could not be with a Master that refused to explain things,or have the attitude "Because I said so, or told you to." Both I consider cope outs. I hold my Master/Daddy to a higher degree than just a sadistic, know it all bastard, someone I could not have respect for.
Maybe that is why I have so much leeway, why I am a Daughter and not merely sub/slave. Absolutes limit my intellgence.
Love,
Zechriel

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Fair or Unfair - 8/30/2008 1:50:19 AM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Depends on the relationship.
Personally I don't enjoy being set up to fail. So if he told me to do something and then made it impossible for me to succeed at that, I would be royally pissed. Now if this was for fun and not for real, that's something else.
However I will note that not everyone uses a punishment dynamic and of those that do, not everyone uses something physical.

But if it is a punishment, then how is making her fail teaching her the skills needed to succeed in the future?

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/18/2008 1:24:30 PM   
Gr33nT0p


Posts: 10
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Status: offline 		BUBBLE GUM  that is what I was missing....

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RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/18/2008 2:00:43 PM   
bratnwranglers


Posts: 113
Joined: 5/24/2007
Status: offline 		as my Master says... "I say what is fair" soo as far as whether it being fair or not...but as a submissive...if i got fondled during my punishment......i might make sure to screw that one up often....lol ;) ...just saying

but i agree with the above as well, if i was being set up to fail, i would be very upset, and probably cause my too lose some respect for You.. how could i trust someone trying to get me to fail.

< Message edited by bratnwranglers -- 12/18/2008 2:03:01 PM >

(in reply to Gr33nT0p)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/18/2008 2:30:23 PM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Thought i was having dejavu reading this thread, then realized it was an older thread. Heck that is punishment on my mind, is it fair?

As for the thread, best i do not try to judge what type of punishment Sir is giving. He knows what he is doing and for what reason.

oceanwynds

(in reply to StayOfExecution)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/18/2008 8:05:16 PM   
BLGirl


Posts: 209
Joined: 10/17/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr33nT0p

Is it fair that during punishment you are teased or played with or even further punishment is extended?

example:
If you (the sub) did something wrong and were to be punished by your Dom/Domme, let us say by holding a dime to the wall with your nose as you are squating for 15 minutes.  Is it ok for your Dom/Domme to help you learn to concentrate by either fondling you, or taking the cane or flogger to your behind, or breasts or some other such distraction?

Please answer,
Would love to read the responses



That is their discretion and has nothing to do with fair/unfair. But, on that note, hell yes it's fair! I would hate it if Daddy did it to me, but I would love it at the same time. Quite a paradox, huh?
 
Fairly,
BLGirl

(in reply to Gr33nT0p)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/18/2008 8:10:09 PM   
Vanessacherry


Posts: 18
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Status: offline 		That sounds very hot!

(in reply to chamberqueen)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/18/2008 8:32:28 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Seems wholly reasonable to me (And amusing, in contemplation). 
  Davan

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RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/19/2008 8:21:05 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		What the hell does fair have to do with punishment?  The question to ask is whether or not it is effective in achieving the goal. 

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/19/2008 8:58:08 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		The thread's months old, but I'll bother anyway.

Please note the answer My sub gave above.  See, I don't play when I punish.  If something's gotten bad enough that I'm punishing in the first place, it's not going to be a happy time.  Fair or unfair has nothing to do with it.  As Michael was so correct in saying above, the point of it is to be effective, so that there's no need for it to be repeated. 


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/19/2008 10:11:17 AM   
lilgirl2008


Posts: 73
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline 		I don't personally believe in physical punishment. A submissive should actually want to submit. So a threat of some kind of  "punishment" doesn't teach a submissive to submit, in my opinion. They then only submit out of fear. I think this can be very damaging to their mental well being. All if ever takes is for my dominant (when I had one) to tell me he was disappointed, for me not to make that same mistake.

But if you agree to this type of relationship, where physical punishment would be part of it, then I say...anything is fair. Fair is not a word that should be used in a D/s relationship, because the sides are never "fair".

(in reply to Gr33nT0p)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/19/2008 10:28:51 AM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
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Status: offline 		~fr~

‘Fair’ is relative to the focus point. In my D/s relationship, Sir is the focus, therefore, what he wants is fair. Provided I am not in danger of being harmed.
 
Kim

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Fair or Unfair - 12/19/2008 10:42:35 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lilgirl2008

I don't personally believe in physical punishment. A submissive should actually want to submit. So a threat of some kind of  "punishment" doesn't teach a submissive to submit, in my opinion. They then only submit out of fear. I think this can be very damaging to their mental well being. All if ever takes is for my dominant (when I had one) to tell me he was disappointed, for me not to make that same mistake.

But if you agree to this type of relationship, where physical punishment would be part of it, then I say...anything is fair. Fair is not a word that should be used in a D/s relationship, because the sides are never "fair".

Along with whoever said punishments were fair, I'd also have to say whoever said all punishments are physical?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to lilgirl2008)
Profile   Post #: 60
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