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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/30/2008 11:26:41 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The cons seem pretty defencive,while the libs seem calm.

Here, anyway.

The investigation thing is the icing on the cake.A big yummy cake.

This will be an interesting month.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/30/2008 11:28:45 PM >

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/30/2008 11:33:23 PM   
SilverWulf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The cons seem pretty defencive,while the libs seem calm.

Here, anyway.

The investigation thing is the icing on the cake.A big yummy cake.

This will be an interesting month.


Your ability to spin never ceases to amaze.

As a conservative, I'm very calm and have no doubt that McCain/Palin will win easily.

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/30/2008 11:50:04 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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Status: offline 		of course,....

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 12:08:28 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Again, pay periods are the same in both charts, so the question remains:  Why are the lower-paid jobs on Obama's staff held by women while the higher-paid jobs held by men? 


Without a rate of pay scale to draw upon there is no evidence to suggest that women are making less than men on Obamas staff. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than I already have so that you'll grasp statistical analysis. You can't just pull numbers out of the air and apply them to a given situation. Statistics don't work that way. The only way to know for sure if women are actually paid less is with the rate of pay scale and we don't have such available. Such is required to determine what the actual salaries are of the various staffers. Since the tools needed to do that job are not available, everything is supposition and extrapolation.

The best thing I can come up with is a real life analogy. My daughter makes $32k per year. A co-worker, working the same place, same job makes $64k per year. Is my daughter in a lower paying job?

Consider now that she only works 20 hours a week while her co-worker puts in 40 hours a week. They make the exact same thing. Equal pay for equal work .. she just works less hours. Without that rate of pay scale though, it would appear as though she were making much less in actual salary.

Okay, that's the best I can do to explain it. If you don't get it and I don't get you, further discussion would seem to be pointless as it will become circular in nature.

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 12:18:50 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

You can't just pull numbers out of the air and apply them to a given situation. Statistics don't work that way.

Nor can you will them away.  This is not statistical analysis but rather empirical observation.  The top 5 paid positions on Obama's staff are held by men, and 7 of the top 10 paid positions on Obama's staff are held by men.  3 of the top 5 paid positions on McCain's staff are held by women, and 6 or 7 of the top 10 paid positions on McCain's staff are held by women.

That is observation, not analysis.


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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 1:04:53 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

You can't just pull numbers out of the air and apply them to a given situation. Statistics don't work that way.

Nor can you will them away.  This is not statistical analysis but rather empirical observation.  The top 5 paid positions on Obama's staff are held by men, and 7 of the top 10 paid positions on Obama's staff are held by men.  3 of the top 5 paid positions on McCain's staff are held by women, and 6 or 7 of the top 10 paid positions on McCain's staff are held by women.

That is observation, not analysis.



Without a rate of pay scale to drawn upon, you actually don't have empirical observations just opinions on what you 'think' those numbers mean. (Empirical observations are used as 'proof' and there is no proof here, no matter how you want to twist it.) I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that you don't know .. any more than I know. So, why is John McCain paying women more than men? Why doesn't equal pay for equal work apply to John McCain? Hillary Clinton was the only candidate who was paying men and women equally. (I'll be happy to provide the link should anyone have google troubles and not be able to find it for themselves.) Shall we all write in her name on the ballot and just forget about Obama and McCain?

Hillary 2008? That ring anyones bell? ::chuckles::



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 7:43:24 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Welcome back BitaTrouble!!!!

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 7:49:16 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Now add to that their respective VP picks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Nor can you will them away.  This is not statistical analysis but rather empirical observation.  The top 5 paid positions on Obama's staff are held by men, and 7 of the top 10 paid positions on Obama's staff are held by men.  3 of the top 5 paid positions on McCain's staff are held by women, and 6 or 7 of the top 10 paid positions on McCain's staff are held by women.

That is observation, not analysis.



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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 9:10:52 AM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		Do numbers help a bit?
quote:

According to data calculated from the Report of the Secretary of the Senate, which covered the six-month period ending Sept. 30, 2007. Of the five people in Obama's Senate office who were paid $100,000 or more on an annual basis, only one -- Obama's administrative manager -- was a woman.

The average pay for the 33 men on Obama's staff (who earned more than $23,000, the lowest annual salary paid for non-intern employees) was $59,207. The average pay for the 31 women on Obama's staff who earned more than $23,000 per year was $48,729.91. (The average pay for all 36 male employees on Obama's staff was $55,962; and the average pay for all 31 female employees was $48,729. The report indicated that Obama had only one paid intern during the period, who was a male.)


I know still anecdotal, eh? But what can ya do?


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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 10:12:14 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Without a rate of pay scale to drawn upon, you actually don't have empirical observations just opinions on what you 'think' those numbers mean.

Damn shame I'm not saying anything about what the numbers "mean".  I am summarizing what they are.  I am asking what they mean.  There is zero interpretation taking place.

True, the statistics would form the answer to the question of why the top paid positions on Obama's staff are held mainly by men, but there is no statistical analysis required to state that the top paid positions on Obama's staff are held mainly by men.  That is a summary of the reported data.

Again, observation, not analysis.

However, let us consider some possible statistical conclusions.  Yes, I am speculating here--idle pleasure for a Sunday morning and a pleasant change from watching Gustav bear down on New Orleans.
  • The men do more work.  All pay scales might be equal and the men are just turning more hours than the women.  Alternative construction: the women staffers are basically part-time staff while the male staffers are full time staff.
  • The men do more valuable work.  All staffers might be full time employees working at legitimately different pay rates. A "legislative director" could arguably do more valuable work than a "staff assistant."
I'm at the extreme by saying "all pay scales" and "all staffers" to streamline the syntax.  If the "more work" conclusion is valid (particularly in the variant of full- vs. part-time work), then a secondary question of why are men tapped to fill the roles requiring more time more often than women arises.  If the "more valuable work" conclusion is valid, the secondary question of why are men selected to do the "more valuable work" more often than women arises.

These are questions I am asking.  You are correct to state that the data itself does not answer the questions.  The data is what gives rise to the questions.

It would be interesting to see the statistical analysis that would answer these questions. 




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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 12:42:43 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Damn shame I'm not saying anything about what the numbers "mean". 


Not a damn shame, really. More like a forgone conclusion. You can't say anything (nor can I) about what 'else' those numbers mean .. because we simply don't know.

quote:

I am summarizing what they are.  I am asking what they mean.  There is zero interpretation taking place.


Then we are in agreement. You don't know what those numbers mean and any conclusion drawn from them is simply opinion .. as I already stated.

quote:

True, the statistics would form the answer to the question of why the top paid positions on Obama's staff are held mainly by men, but there is no statistical analysis required to state that the top paid positions on Obama's staff are held mainly by men.  That is a summary of the reported data.


At this point, we'll have to agree to disagree. I find that conclusion you've drawn to be flawed due to the unavailable data set. I do not agree that the top paid positions on Obamas staff are held by men. I will stipulate that I don't know if they are or not .. but certainly I won't agree that such is accurate but neither would I argue that it is inaccurate.. only that it is inconclusive.

quote:

Again, observation, not analysis.


Again, opinion, not empirical observation. Observe the numbers and what you 'can' conclude is that Staffer John Doe made X $'s during the period of April to Sept (or whatever time frame is pertinent to a given staffer). That is via empirical observation of the numbers and the one and only conclusion you can draw from the information which is available. That is the 'proven'. Anything else is extrapolation from a skewed data set. Since empirical observation would prove the premise and it does not it's simply opinion that the top paid staffers are men.

quote:

However, let us consider some possible statistical conclusions.  Yes, I am speculating here--idle pleasure for a Sunday morning and a pleasant change from watching Gustav bear down on New Orleans.


There are no 'possible statastical conclusions' to be drawn from the available data set. Without more information the numbers mean what they mean ... and that's all that they mean.

quote:

You are correct to state that the data itself does not answer the questions. 


Yes, I know.

quote:

The data is what gives rise to the questions.


Which is another debate. One I look forward to having if such data becomes available. So far, I haven't had any luck in that regard.

quote:

It would be interesting to see the statistical analysis that would answer these questions. 


Indeed and as I said it would take nothing more than a rate of pay scale (time cards or something along those lines would probably work) to be able to draw a myriad of conclusions. Think the RNC will be asking for them? Ever wonder why the RNC hasn't already asked? This data has been available for a very long time, after all. If there is smoke here, why isn't the RNC fanning them into a brilliant fire?  I have to wonder why that's not happening. You're voting McCain if I remember correctly. Ever think about dropping him a line with your thoughts on Obama's staff salaries? He might just be interested. Who knows.. maybe you could get a cabinent position or something! Seriously! I mean, this could be huge and the guy who calls attention to it would be a darling of the RNC.

Don't forget us little guys while you're up there in Washington.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 12:52:11 PM   
sensiia


Posts: 103
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Status: offline 		I don't understand why most of you are comparing Palin to Obama, they are not running for the same office. Obama is running for Commander in Chief, Palin is running for VP there is a big difference.

This race is actually between McCain and Obama period!

I am looking forward to see if Palin has what it takes, these debates coming up will be interesting to watch. I am sure Palin can handle her own against Biden.

< Message edited by sensiia -- 8/31/2008 12:55:56 PM >

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 1:11:40 PM   
sensiia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The cons seem pretty defencive,while the libs seem calm.

Here, anyway.

The investigation thing is the icing on the cake.A big yummy cake.

This will be an interesting month.


I have to disagree here Owner59, have you read the comments listed in all of the blogspots, all being the Liberal, blue collar dems ( a minority today) Republican, Moderate and Conservative? They show a percentage of libs foaming at the mouth, attacking her and her family as some put it...the mongaloid child she whelps, or how she should have aborted the baby as it leaves a carbon foot-print etc.

I try to keep an open mind and view all opinions as I OWN my own.

Icing on the cake? if we are discussing the same investigation.... he shoots a moose illegally, he is in his patrol car drinking, tasing his stepson (yes that is real healthy, NOT) threatening to kill her father if he hires a lawyer for his daughter divorcing him. Is that the type of cop you want protecting you and your family? As a retired NYPD myself I sure as hell wouldn't want to work with anyone fitting that criteria.

I heard about Palin a few weeks ago and looked up her accomplishments, bio etc  and have secretly hoped McCain would pick her but seriously doubted the Republicans would ever think of vetting a woman, though I disagree on a few of her stances I am willing to overlook them for the better of this country my daughter has yet to experience and stay free from socialism.

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 1:17:36 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I don't understand why most of you are comparing Palin to Obama, they are not running for the same office. Obama is running for Commander in Chief, Palin is running for VP there is a big difference.

Very true.  And many are still wondering why the Democrats can plausibly argue that Palin, with a deeper political resume than Obama, is not qualified (not "ready") to be VP, while the lesser experienced Obama is qualified and ready to be President.

The origin of the comparison?  Yet another question the Democrats leave unanswered.


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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 1:20:33 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensiia

I don't understand why most of you are comparing Palin to Obama, they are not running for the same office. Obama is running for Commander in Chief, Palin is running for VP there is a big difference.

This race is actually between McCain and Obama period!

I am looking forward to see if Palin has what it takes, these debates coming up will be interesting to watch. I am sure Palin can handle her own against Biden.


That is exactly why some of us are comparing Obama and Palin, because there is a huge difference between the jobs they are running for, and yet she has more experience than he does.  Yet those that are opposing her suggest that she has little to none, and thus is not qualified to run as the number 2 on a presidential ticket.  Just highlighting the hypocrisy, and asking "What has Obama done?".

I agree the Biden vs Palin debates are going to be great to watch, and I am enjoying the fact that some are underestimating her.

Just my opinions,
Thadius

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 2:05:18 PM   
Steponme73


Posts: 552
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Status: offline 		I think the Palin pick was very smart.  She is not one of the good ole boys, she is not a Washington beauracrat.  She has some sense about her and she is a quick study and I don't think she will say anything really stupid. 
Now Joe Biden on the other hand he will say several things that will be really stupid before November...he just can't help himself.

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 2:10:24 PM   
Masternslave07


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Status: offline 		With just her two years as Alaskan governor, she still has more "governing" experience than any of the other players, including Senator McCain. None of the others have run anything. She is actually the experienced one of the bunch.

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 2:21:17 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensiia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The cons seem pretty defencive,while the libs seem calm.

Here, anyway.

The investigation thing is the icing on the cake.A big yummy cake.

This will be an interesting month.


I have to disagree here Owner59, have you read the comments listed in all of the blogspots, all being the Liberal, blue collar dems ( a minority today) Republican, Moderate and Conservative? They show a percentage of libs foaming at the mouth, attacking her and her family as some put it...the mongaloid child she whelps, or how she should have aborted the baby as it leaves a carbon foot-print etc.

I try to keep an open mind and view all opinions as I OWN my own.

Icing on the cake? if we are discussing the same investigation.... he shoots a moose illegally, he is in his patrol car drinking, tasing his stepson (yes that is real healthy, NOT) threatening to kill her father if he hires a lawyer for his daughter divorcing him. Is that the type of cop you want protecting you and your family? As a retired NYPD myself I sure as hell wouldn't want to work with anyone fitting that criteria.

I heard about Palin a few weeks ago and looked up her accomplishments, bio etc  and have secretly hoped McCain would pick her but seriously doubted the Republicans would ever think of vetting a woman, though I disagree on a few of her stances I am willing to overlook them for the better of this country my daughter has yet to experience and stay free from socialism.
Sesilia, as a former cop you seem to be drawing some harsh conclusions regarding this trooper.Have you heard his side of the story,or are you just accepting as fact all that he is accused of.It seems to me someone could have made the Gov.of Alaska very happy if they could have found legitimate reasons to fire this man....that has not happened....so maybe just maybe he is not the complete asshole you seem to have decided he is.BTW what happened to the blue wall ,is that just for the lower 48?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 2:25:24 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sesilia, as a former cop you seem to be drawing some harsh conclusions regarding this trooper.Have you heard his side of the story,or are you just accepting as fact all that he is accused of.It seems to me someone could have made the Gov.of Alaska very happy if they could have found legitimate reasons to fire this man....that has not happened....so maybe just maybe he is not the complete asshole you seem to have decided he is.BTW what happened to the blue wall ,is that just for the lower 48?


The guy doing the accusing has stated as much, and concluded that the guy had already been punished for those actions.  However, I would also like to point to some folks casting that same kind of judgement on a couple of cops from a short video snippet posted by a group of bike riders...

As I said then, I say now, the truth will come out in the wash.

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RE: Six things the Palin pick says about McCain - 8/31/2008 2:37:56 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Sesilia, as a former cop you seem to be drawing some harsh conclusions regarding this trooper.Have you heard his side of the story,or are you just accepting as fact all that he is accused of.It seems to me someone could have made the Gov.of Alaska very happy if they could have found legitimate reasons to fire this man....that has not happened....



And you are still running away from the question as to why a labor union would commit or cover up such criminal actions for a Republican who wasn't even Governor at the time? 
Seems like you fell into your usual ad homs about the time that the link to the union saying that the trooper was treated fairly was brought up.  Or did you start them after if was pointed out that saying the trooper had already been fired was a false hood?



..


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