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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 1:59:26 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Hello Asmodeus,

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate as much as you did in your post.  It does appear that this is an issue of concern for you, and I can empathize.  No one likes being in a potentially lose/lose situation socially.  Especially when someone we care deeply about and feel protective toward, appears to be at risk of being  unairly assaulted by their social peers. 

It is my belief that new and eager submissives (or anyone for that matter) are better served when they are encouraged to take responsibility for their own choices.  Which she seems to have done, by feeling remorse for making the choice to let the woman you refer to as 'the switch' try the flogger out on her.  I know how easy it is to get caught up in the thrill of new experiences and how that can cloud ones judgments, but your submissive still was in a position to step away from the flogger after just a few hits, and should bear the responsibility of not having done so.  While I understand she is knew to the lifestyle, and new to BDSM experiences, I tend to assume that she's an adult and not new to life experiences, nor new to accepting the consequences for the good and bad choices she makes for herself. 

My concern here, is that having been caught up by her excitement, at fault or not, she seems to at least partially begin her own personal slander campaign against this switch woman - which is a common and natural thing for someone to who has 'been caught' doing something they know/believe they shouldn't have done.  I know I was wrong, but she took advantage of me, hints as much at someone playing the victim as actually being one.  The drama is perpetuated at the party when the submissive is offended for having her ass touched. I sympathise, to an extent, because it really is a rather touchy situation,  no pun intended.  But, there just seems to have been more emphasis here on demonizing the switch than needs to be.

Obviously this switch woman is lacking in common sense, respect and public protocol, and I'd definitely limit my personal interaction with her, but I get this nagging sense of your submissive fueling the flames of this drama, although innocently and unintentially, I'm sure.  You know your girl, as I apparently do not, so please understand I'm not in anyway slandering her or your good sense.  My instincts here, and I concede that they are tainted by my own past experiences in situations like this where BOTH parties were drama queens, is that your girl is feeding on the attention she gets from you and your partner coming to her defense and could very well be inadvertently playing you both against this woman. 

If you begin to see a pattern of your girl feeding off drama, and fueling it,  you may have to begn to call her on it and help her to learn how to get her excitement and thrills from a healthier outlet.  I say this not to slander the girl but to encourage you to go into this with both eyes open, and be accepting that new and inexperienced  and eager, brings its own pitfalls and responsibilties. 

Perhaps learning how negatively your partner is being effected by her actions and this switches actions may already be a teaching experience that she learns from.  I've witnessed how effectively people can be manipulated by those 'new and inexperienced' victims of others, and the damage it can cause.  Often, the drama queen, no matter how knew he/she may be at it, has no clue just how damaging their actions are, until it is too late.  If they learn at all.  Its the bane of many a public setting that I'm sure several will attest to.

Best wishes and all the fondest hopes that things work out for all of you,

WinD

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/16/2008 2:06:45 PM >

(in reply to Asmodeus)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:01:27 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		What ever you do don not sit down and have civilised conversation between all the adults that are being effected, do not try to find out if mistakes were made and that folks may have over reacted and are still in the process of learning.

Yes i think creating more drama is the answer, and it would be totally silly to invite her out to dinner and talk to her like a person face to face with your new sub, and your partner and clear the air in a loving supportive enviroment where every one there can learn and grow.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 9/16/2008 2:04:24 PM >

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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:04:01 PM   
Asmodeus


Posts: 81
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		WinD -

While there might be some element of truth there, I've seen the emails that this woman has sent to her, after the fact, attacking my partner and everything we have been doing with the new sub. I do computers for a living; it wasn't faked or altered. So I don't think is a drama thing with the sub. if anything, she is the least drama-interested person I've met in a long time.




< Message edited by Asmodeus -- 9/16/2008 2:10:59 PM >

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Deus Ex Machina

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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:08:43 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Just a thought that you may not agree with:  I do think this is not only the other girl's fault, but your sub's fault as well.  After three blows with the flogger, she should have said, "that's enough", and got up/moved away/whatever.  She needs to take some accountability for what she allowed to happen, and understand how not to let it happen again (with anyone, not just that girl).  Roleplay and practice if necessary, but unless she was tied up (and if you said that, I missed it), she shares the blame here.

And I do understand that you punished her for breaking the contract, but that's not the "blame" I'm talking about.  I'm talking about letting something happen that she did not want to happen, outside of the contract, if that makes sense.  If not, let me know.

Cali





We've talked about this. She was not restrained physically, but it certainly sounded like the switch had started to move her mentally into the head space she wanted the sub in. Our sub is aware of this being partially her responsibility, and accepts that, but I need to make it clear to her that she can make friends in the lifestyle with people who aren't after her as an object of affection or plaything. She really trusted this woman and looked up to her, and the sense of betrayal is palpable when you talk to her about it. She was manipulated and she recognizes that now, but it is very important that she not develop a jaded view of the people in the lifestyle and instead realize that they are just like everyone else. Just because they have a "rep" isn't reason to let your natural guard down. And this woman played her pretty well, pushing all the right buttons , getting into a position of authority, and building up a large amount of trust. if our sub hadn't decided that we were the right people for her, the other woman would likely not have made her move until she was more secure in her position.


Cali is correct. Your submissive has quite a bit of the blame on her shoulders "if not most" in my opinion. For allowing someone to manipulate her. For trusting where trust was not due.

Sharks are sharks no matter what title they wear. Top/bottom/switch/Dominant/submissive/Master/slave/tunafishsandwich. You dont put your bloody hand into a pool full of hungry sharks and not expect it to be bitten off. You dont put yourself in a position of play when you have certain weaknesses and expect everyone to be honorable and forthright. She did and then suffered the consequences. Rather then piss and moan about it and drag you into the drama, she should learn from the experiance, hope that it matures her a bit more, and move on. Adding more fuel to the fire by "calling someone out" out a large public event just makes you look petty and brings you down to the level of the "shark" in question. Rather spread the word quietly to those you trust and respect... and things will even out eventually.

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to Asmodeus)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:16:12 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		*sigh*.....re: "new one" ....sadly there is nothing new about this, her reaction your subs reaction or your reaction...it is as old as time...

if you want to do something "new" to solve the problem....try what i suggested above....or just hand the switch in question a flower and say "hey can we talk?"

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to CruelDesires)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:21:11 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus

WinD -

While there might be some element of truth there, I've seen the emails that this woman has sent to her, after the fact, attacking my partner and everything we have been doing with the new sub. I do computers for a living; it wasn't faked or altered. So I don't think is a drama thing with the sub. if anything, she is the least drama-interested person I;ve met in a long time.


Hello Asmodeus,

Thank you for not taking my comments personally and responding with some clarification on the situation. 

I truly do feel for you, and I understand you are now in the potentially lose/lose situation I mentioned earlier.  In a he said/she said verbal war, there really are no winners.  As you have expressed your concerns with putting people into a position of taking sides, I will tell you that the likelihood of coming out in a positive light if this happens, is not very good. 

Really, as much as we all hate backing down from a fight, it would seem to me to be in your own best interests (yours, your parterns and your submissives) to take the high road here, and not allow yourselves to be a party to it any further.  Move forward with a positive outlook by presenting yourselves in a public setting with dignity,  show yourselves gracious and just focus on having a good time.  Honestly, at this point, the only advantage this other woman has, is the one you allow her and hand over to her.

Again, yikes, best wishes and good luck!
WinD

(in reply to Asmodeus)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:26:22 PM   
Asmodeus


Posts: 81
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

*sigh*.....re: "new one" ....sadly there is nothing new about this, her reaction your subs reaction or your reaction...it is as old as time...

if you want to do something "new" to solve the problem....try what i suggested above....or just hand the switch in question a flower and say "hey can we talk?"


This other woman sends emails to our sub spewing lies about my partner, inventing things that never happened, twisting the situations to fit her own ends, and making statements that are not only blatantly untrue, but that have independent witnesses to verify. There was no over-reaction, no mistakes, no misunderstanding; but rather a specific attempt by this woman who, under false colors, attempted to win over a submissive who likely would have been interested in her had she simply been honest. She was playing games, got caught, and has decided to attack me and mine.

Yet you seem to think that we should make nice to this person because it's clearly a misunderstanding that can be worked out.

OK

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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:27:09 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline 		God, (and i've been slated for drama), that's a long tittle tattle about people i knew nothing about but do now. I guess the long and short of it is everyone involved is two-faced. More evidence as to why i don't 'play' publicly.....it saves the she said he said she said.....
make a good soap though when bdsm goes really mainstream. A bit like Dallas with whips.......

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Formerly Prinsexx
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:29:56 PM   
Asmodeus


Posts: 81
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		FWIW, I've composed a very simple, one sentance reply for our sub to send to the latest email from this woman. Some of the responses here are the motivation for it. It should end the issue completely or turn it into a major excrement storm ;)

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Deus Ex Machina

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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:40:44 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus

Sorry for the length, I'm venting a bit. People who insist on playing head games just really piss me off.


My recommendation, having dealt with issues like this before, is to arrange a meeting between you, your partner, your slave, and this woman.... AND a mediator/arbitrator. I would select a neutral party who is well respected by you and by the community, and basically institute binding arbitration. Make sure that a neutral party observes and witnesses, and then see what happens.

What I -wouldn't- do is blow this up at a community event -- it gives the wrong impression, and won't solve the problem -- just start a bigger merde-storm.

JMO,
Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/16/2008 2:43:18 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Asmodeus)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:46:07 PM   
MsMillgrove


Posts: 260
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline 		I am puzzled as to why the emails were not blocked after the very first one?  Why was the sub not instructed to cease communication immediately with the switch?  

The situation is standard.  It seems unique to the participants of course, but it happens everywhere--vanilla world and bdsm communities.
People in positions of trust befriend and then betray the newbies. The newbies call upon their mentors for help. 

The quicker it's ended, the less focus on it--the less power it will have in your important future relationship with both your dear sub and your community.

Cut of all communication with the switch, let a few key people know you've done this as she conducted herself unethically with your sub and---- let it go. Move on to the things that are key to your growing happiness together.

Above said respectfully, understanding  your clear distress and your obvious care and concern for your partner and your sub.

(in reply to Asmodeus)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:50:26 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove

I am puzzled as to why the emails were not blocked after the very first one?  Why was the sub not instructed to cease communication immediately with the switch?  

The situation is standard.  It seems unique to the participants of course, but it happens everywhere--vanilla world and bdsm communities.
People in positions of trust befriend and then betray the newbies. The newbies call upon their mentors for help. 

The quicker it's ended, the less focus on it--the less power it will have in your important future relationship with both your dear sub and your community.

Cut of all communication with the switch, let a few key people know you've done this as she conducted herself unethically with your sub and---- let it go. Move on to the things that are key to your growing happiness together.

Above said respectfully, understanding  your clear distress and your obvious care and concern for your partner and your sub.


This is good advice -- except that I've been in the communities where, if someone like this was cut off, xhe'd run to the nearest group of people xhe could think of in the community (and, in one case, even to the police) to 'report' the 'kidnapping' of a submissive by these people...

Sometimes, having a neutral witness to the termination of association is a valuable asset -- and with someone this manipulative, I feel that it is definitely a cautious step for the submissive -and- for the House.

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to MsMillgrove)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 2:55:20 PM   
Asmodeus


Posts: 81
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:


This is good advice -- except that I've been in the communities where, if someone like this was cut off, xhe'd run to the nearest group of people xhe could think of in the community (and, in one case, even to the police) to 'report' the 'kidnapping' of a submissive by these people...

Sometimes, having a neutral witness to the termination of association is a valuable asset -- and with someone this manipulative, I feel that it is definitely a cautious step for the submissive -and- for the House.

Calla Firestorm


I see that you've encountered this before. That's exactly the reason communication wasn't completely terminated.

Ah for the days of the kill file.

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Deus Ex Machina

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 3:02:08 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus


I see that you've encountered this before. That's exactly the reason communication wasn't completely terminated.

Ah for the days of the kill file.


Let me put it this way -- I'm involved in this community, the GLBT community, the alternative medicine community, and in the alt-spirituality/pagan community... and my own temple trained me as an arbitrator as part of my pastoral care education, not because it was a luxury, but because of all the infighting already on the ground. It's a shame, but many of the alternative communities I've been involved in spend so much time tearing themselves apart from the inside that they are already hollow shells -- easy prey if the 'mundane community takes an interest.

Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Asmodeus)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 3:04:19 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
This is good advice -- except that I've been in the communities where, if someone like this was cut off, xhe'd run to the nearest group of people xhe could think of in the community (and, in one case, even to the police) to 'report' the 'kidnapping' of a submissive by these people...

Sometimes, having a neutral witness to the termination of association is a valuable asset -- and with someone this manipulative, I feel that it is definitely a cautious step for the submissive -and- for the House.

Calla Firestorm


I agree that arbitration could very well be their best course of action.  In fact, I'm a staunch advocate for peacemaking and conflict resolution.  However, when dealing openly with someone who is adept at manipulation, it can sometimes backfire.  The best defense, in just about any case, is to be above reproach oneself, and earn your good name and reputation by being a public presence with unquestionable behavior.  The problem with this approach, is this takes time.  The sad truth in these situations, is that more often than not, one simply has no other choice but to weather the storm and let the truth reveal itself. 


(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 3:16:15 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


The problem with this approach, is this takes time.  The sad truth in these situations, is that more often than not, one simply has no other choice but to weather the storm and let the truth reveal itself. 




Which it usually eventually does.

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 3:19:03 PM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Excuse me..but I am about to say something that may be obvious that is being over looked. Have you asked your Sub How she would handle something like this WITHOUT the BDSM trappings?

OK..stick with me a second. Every last one of us, whether PTA Mom or CEO has dealt with this type of situation in the every day vanilla world. We dealt with it as teenagers, and as adults.  The sexual overtones have nothing to do with this and the manner of dealing with it.

Fine, she was assaulted by someone who abused her trust and broke her contract with you. She has been punished for this and admits her culpability in the occurrence. The person however continues to stalk and harass her, and to touch her without permission.  This is illegal by state laws, and by any organization laws that I know of.

Any Munch, Club, Play Party, Festival or Convention, No means no and if someone touches me without my permission or my owners, my response is a LOUD "I said NO. Do Not Touch Me Again." if the original warning is ignored. At that point it is up to the hosts, facilitators or DM's to correct or remove the offending person. Trust me, the rumor mill will spread what happened faster than any telegraph.

Emails can be blocked or reported to an ISP for abuse and violation of their TOS and should be.

You might go for arbitration if you want within the community, but please consider handling it as you would any mundane situation. Just because it is wrapped in leather doesn't make it any less a violation of Mundane laws.

poenkitten


(in reply to Asmodeus)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 3:37:18 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus
This other woman sends emails to our sub (snip)


My email program is really neat. I have to click on an incoming email before it will open for me to read it. Evidently your sub's email program lacks this feature. Get her a better email program and teach her how to use the filters.

(in reply to Asmodeus)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 3:42:21 PM   
JewAndCelt


Posts: 110
Joined: 8/23/2008
From: Arkansas
Status: offline 		My two cents : (again )

If I'm at a bar and some drunk idiot grabs my ass then I would say 'Stop that" (well, something along those lines). What I would not do is run to my husband, point the drunk out and let him take care of it. Why? Because that wouldn't help the situation. I cut the drunk guy down. I stop him in his tracks and let him know in no uncertain terms that his advances aren't wanted. What does this do to little drunk man? He tucks his tail between his legs and runs off, leaving his pride at my feet. If I was to run and get my husband the situation could get really bad, really fast. Drunk guy was ballsy enough to grab my ass so he would probably be ballsy and ignorant enough to "challange" my husband. The situation that I could have controlled just went from semi-bad to mega-bad.

See where I'm going with this?

Now the situation you find yourself in is much different, I know. You have a sub that you care for, who you feel has been violated and is being pushed around. Of course your first instict is to handle the situation yourself. While it's honorable - in my thinking it could make a semi-bad problem mega-bad very quickly. If this switch is as manipulative as you say then she will try at least to turn the tables, with you looking like the bad guy.

If your sub, on the other hand, stands up to her to let her know what she did was not cool and will not be tolerated again, she will bruise the switch's pride and she will tuck her tail between her legs and run off (figuratively). And even if she doesn't she will think twice before trying anything else on your sub.

I think you feel like you should "warn" your group members about this switch. I can understand your concern, but at the same time are you really responsible for everyone's safety? People will figure her out soon enough.

Again this was just my two cents and I do wish you luck with this tricky situation.

_her


_____________________________

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!!!!!!כי לא נולד הבן זונה שיעצור את ישראל

(in reply to BlackPhx)
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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 3:43:43 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus
We've talked about this. She was not restrained physically, but it certainly sounded like the switch had started to move her mentally into the head space she wanted the sub in. Our sub is aware of this being partially her responsibility, and accepts that, but I need to make it clear to her that she can make friends in the lifestyle with people who aren't after her as an object of affection or plaything. She really trusted this woman and looked up to her, and the sense of betrayal is palpable when you talk to her about it. She was manipulated and she recognizes that now, but it is very important that she not develop a jaded view of the people in the lifestyle and instead realize that they are just like everyone else. Just because they have a "rep" isn't reason to let your natural guard down. And this woman played her pretty well, pushing all the right buttons , getting into a position of authority, and building up a large amount of trust. if our sub hadn't decided that we were the right people for her, the other woman would likely not have made her move until she was more secure in her position.


I'm hearing "yes, but..." in your response.  Yes, but here is the justification for what the sub did... she was manipulated.  Ummm.... welcome to the world??

There are two issues.  1 - Your sub allowed herself to be used, manipulated, flogged, etc.  2 - The switch may or may not have taken advantage of a situation (we know the sub's version, but not the switch's version).

Since you are not in control of the switch, maybe you should concentrate on rectifiying the number 1 problem.

Let me give you a hypothetical example, no BDSM involved.  I made a resolve that I was no longer going to have any sexual contact with a certain person.  However, I got bit by a spider on the inside of my leg, right where it meets the body (so yeah...about a half inch from the girly bits).  This person was at my house when it happened and it started swelling and hurting like crazy.  He offered to look at it, "no funny business." 

So I agreed (mistake #1) and laid down on the bed (mistake #2) with my panties on .  In looking at it, his fingers would brush against the outside of my panties, which was having the effect he wanted it to - it was turning me on.  I fussed at him to knock it off and tell me what he saw (mistake #3, not getting up immediately).  Several more mistakes and his tongue was inside me.

Did he take advantage of the situation, knowing that I had decided not to have sexual contact?  Sure he did.  Did I make mistake after mistake, and could have stopped it at any moment?  You bet.  Does it matter that he knew EXACTLY what turns me on, what my buttons are?  Not a whit.

Where should most of the fault lie?  With me, for allowing it to happen.  No one forced me.  "Yes, but he took advantage!"  Like I said, welcome to the world.


Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to Asmodeus)
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