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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 8:42:15 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, I admit I read the whole thing. But I'm not gonna comment on much of what was said. Asmodeus? I know how you are feeling man, I really do. Been there, done that and didn't even get the stinkin' shirt. Anyone that has read my posts knows that. Yeah, there are people out there that are absolutely unethical. I damn near fell into that same place you are right now. But you know what? It isn't worth it. Tell the girl that from now on she will be held accountable for her decisions and when she is in doubt that it's ok to contact you and get your advice. As to the other matter? Write her off, she no longer exists to you and yours. Make it clear to the girl that she is to find the words to make it clear that she no longer wants any contact from said switch and leave it at that... anything beyond that and you are just playing into her (the switches) hands, stepping into her territory and kickin' up sand in her playground. In other words.. don't stoop to her level. Which is exactly what you would have to do to get her attention. Leave it alone, call it a learning experience and go on.
 
Jewel

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 10:14:57 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		After reading a few of the posts i'm thinking way to much drama.  It never ceases to amaze me how lots of folks thrive on drama.  To the OP your sub was in the wrong by playing with the other person w/o permission deal with it.  As much as you want to blame others it just ain't so.

BadOne

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We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 11:49:10 AM   
masterforRT


Posts: 176
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus


quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I think that ignoring the trouble-maker would be preferable to generating drama at a lifestyle event.  Honestly, bringing out all of this will make you look as bad as the slave/switch.



Unfortunately, the local scene thrives on lies and innuendo. It's very unfortunate that it is that way. But by bringing it up in public ( I would talk to the people in charge first) I would be attempting to limit the spread of potential BS. And our local scene desperately needs some sort of accountability. if I didn't enjoy public play so much I would tell all of these drama queens to .... well, you know.


Time to find a new local scene then. Are there other places in your or nearby communities where you can go? It's pretty clear that both (of) you and your sub would benefit by not being around this other person-and if she's going to be at every event you go to, that simply isn't possible.

Short of that, I'd try to ignore this person's existance as much as possible. Delete her emails unread, don't return her messages and hang up on her if she calls. Don't slam the receiver down, just hang up. After a while, she'll get the message.

Good luck :)

(in reply to Asmodeus)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 5:04:39 PM   
smilingjaguar


Posts: 271
Status: offline 		I have a real problem with the idea of blaming the switch so much.  The sub needs to learn to take responsibility for herself *and* her submissive reactions.  It's easy and convenient right now to blame the switch and get all huffy, but the sub has a lot of maturing to do before I'd want anything to do with her because she seems to be a drama whore and secondly because she seems to have no sense of personal responsibility for her part in these episodes. As for the switch and the booty grabbing episode, she did that because your sub is sending her a message that her tactics just may work. She hasn't yet firmly closed the door on the switch, and if I were her dom I would want to know why. I don't think you should be involved at all, to be honest. I'd just give her my view of what needed to be done, step back, ask to be kept informed, and see what choice the sub made.  If she's just another drama whore, it will become clear very soon.  She'll continue engaging the switch and complaining to you instead of informing the switch she's not interested and blocking emails and phone calls.

(in reply to masterforRT)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 6:01:22 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Twice- if a chick wants to freely admit "I cannot stand up for myself or be held accountable for my actions and should not make commitments to the degree where it will be asked of me to be accountable and say no" then I'm all for that.  It's up to anyone who wants the sub to act right and not be put in compromising situations to make sure that never happens (there are still plenty of places in the world where women are not ALLOWED the freedom to be in mixed company without supervision, whether they have the backbone for it or not).  Don't blame the bees for enjoying the honey when it's so easily available.



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(in reply to smilingjaguar)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 6:18:15 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

I've read through a number of these posts with the tendency to blame the submissive-type. Honestly, I don't know how many people here would deny a friend whom they perceived to be of the same 'orientation' as they were the opportunity to play with a new toy on a strictly -fun- basis, as was described in the OP. In my opinion, for anyone who gives a damn, the switch betrayed her "friend's" trust in doing what she did. Also IMO, this was a D/s variant of "date rape". Blaming the submissive for not 'seeing through' this and not "taking control" of the situation sounds completely illogical to me.

As far as the submissive type... she told her Keepers what had happened. If her relationship is such that she knows that she can depend on her Keepers for protection and to deal with issues like this, I don't see where she did anything wrong in leaning on them to help her resolve this. I would have responded the same way with one of our servants, both in dealing with the aftereffects with the s-type, and dealing with the repercussions of shutting down the predator switch and dealing with the potential repercussions in the community. After all, I would -also- consider that to be 'my job'.

JMO
Calla Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 7:28:51 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		The "date rape" analogy doesn't apply since she never said "no", there was no force, etc.  It's not date rape if you go along with it.



Cali


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(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/17/2008 8:04:38 PM   
housemouse61


Posts: 60
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline 		If You bring an issue/question to an open message board such as this; You are going to get a myriad of responses from positive to negative, from thought-provoking to inane drivel.  But, to complain about the input You requested because some did not agree with Your view of the situation and what should be done or because some seemed "trite" in Your view is, imo, rather juvenile.  Making accusations of others not being real because of Your displeasure with one or more responses only punctuates the juvenile appearance.
It seems pretty clear to me that You had already made up Your mind, probably before You even made the original post, to do as You wished.  And that's fine.  Keep in mind, though, that whatever You choose do will be a direct reflection on You and choose carefully.  Just as verbally insulting others posting responses in an effort to be of help is a reflection.
Peace favor and blessed be.

(in reply to Asmodeus)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 4:43:39 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It's up to anyone who wants the sub to act right and not be put in compromising situations to make sure that never happens (there are still plenty of places in the world where women are not ALLOWED the freedom to be in mixed company without supervision, whether they have the backbone for it or not).  Don't blame the bees for enjoying the honey when it's so easily available.


Agreed, if the subbie was not brand new and her current owners were also unaware there was a possibility of this happening. Under the circumstances described by the OP, yes, i do blame the bee for sampling the honey, as she was very aware that the sub was new.
 
Now, if it happens again with the subbie, i would hold both the sub and the owners accountable because now they all know there is an issue.
 
We have a neighbor, cute as a button, sweet, funny, with one of those perfectly round asses you cannot resist, (i believe erin's comment was, "i could lose myself in that ass") we've become very good friends since they moved in a year and a half ago.
 
Now she is going through a bad breakup with her suddenly very abusive old man. So over here she comes, wanting to soak in the hot tub and talk. Come to find out she was horny, i mean really horny. She said " aw, come on, i won't tell him" referring to her old man. I flat out refused.
 
Then into the house where she loudly complained that nobody had showed her the new sex swing. Well since Jewel was already upstairs,  Scooter took her up and they showed it to her. Naturally she just HAD to sit in it. Well i was not in the room but Scooter came flying out to get me, asking me to save him, quick.
 
I took her downstairs where she complained" damn it, i was in the swing and neither of them tried a thing!"
 
I had to explain that while any of us would happily do her under different circumstances that right now she was emotionally damaged and not in control of herself, that she was unaware what she was asking.
 
We all consider ourselves to be ethical, morally responsible people, and we all knew having sex with her right now was just wrong, it would be taking advantage of her mental state.
 
If something had happened at this point, we would have been wrong for taking advantage of her, period. I see the circumstances of the Op's opening issue the same way, with one exception, this switch deliberately set this girl up to be in an altered state.
 
Like i said above, now that all parties are aware, shame on them if it happens again. But for right now, shame on the switch involved.

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The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 6:09:11 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Then again. We are all hearing only one side of the story. People tend to forget that when it is posted here in the forums. :-)

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to Twicehappy2x)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 6:18:16 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		It has been stated that the switch knew the sub's triggers.  Well, if the switch knew them, then the sub knew them - for someone had to communicate those triggers TO the switch in the first place.  I have a difficult time equating knowledge of oneself with inexeprience.  If the switch was wrong, and I believe she was, then how is the sub less in the wrong for knowing she soars high from a flogger, and then saying oooo can I try it out?  That isn't new and inexperienced, it is immature and selfish.  If she was cognitive enough to have made assumptions that she could trust the switch not to push her too far, and aware of her weaknesses enough to think she was 'ok' in this instance, which she must have been to have made the excuses for herself she did - then she was aware enough of the situation to have stopped it before it went as far as it did, had she wanted to.  Unless the woman goes into subspace with three smacks - in which case all I can say is DAMN - that's impressive.  I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into anyone being that aware of their triggers, but unaware of how avoid tripping them. 

With each swing of that flogger, the sub made a choice to stand there and take it and the switch made a choice to keep going when she could have stepped away and put the damn thing down.  Call it what it is - and stop justifying the behavior.  Either the sub is congnitive enough to make consensual choices for herself - or she isn't.  If she is, then she is responsible for the choices she makes.  Either the switch is cognitive enough to make consensual choices as a top, or she isn't.  If she is, and she screws up, then she's responsible for her actions. 

Broken down in its simplest terms, it appears as if they both didn't care one wit about consequences at the time, because they wanted what they wanted, in the moment.  While an experienced switch who has written books about her experiences should damn well know better than to behave as she has - there is no accounting for the depth of stupidity in some people. 

Frankly, I think the entire scenario has been extremely blown out of proportion, and turned into an "issue" when all it needed to be, was a learning experience.  I don't see a single participant, in this drama, who has behaved in an admirable or wise manner. 

I just find the whole blame game extremely juvenile on all fronts.  Accept responsiblity for ones OWN actions.  Accept the consequences of ones OWN actions.  Learn from them, and move forward.  OR, enable the immaturity, blame others, encourage the behavior and expect it to be a recurring theme in your life.   

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/18/2008 6:40:43 AM >

(in reply to Twicehappy2x)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 6:39:33 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Frankly, I think the entire scenario has been extremely blown out of proportion, and turned into an "issue" when all it needed to be, was a learning experience.  I don't see a single participant, in this drama, who has behaved in an admirable or wise manner. 


Ditto

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 7:16:25 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus
And so the problem begins... (snipped)
Sorry for the length, I'm venting a bit. People who insist on playing head games just really piss me off.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus
Thanks for the replies . There was some useful information to be found, even in some of the more jaded worldview responses. As for those of you who felt that ad homium responses were appropriate and who who clearly had nothing to ad but inane dribble, well it's easy to see why you are spending so much time here rather than in the real world.


Just wanted to point out to the OP. Isn't it ironic? Dogging on some folks for spending time on the forums, yet seeking out advice from same said users? *Coughs*

Edited for spelling.

C-D

< Message edited by CruelDesires -- 9/18/2008 7:19:24 AM >

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Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
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(in reply to Asmodeus)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 8:16:02 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x
 Under the circumstances described by the OP, yes, i do blame the bee for sampling the honey, as she was very aware that the sub was new.
You're assuming that the the sub in question correctly and accurately told the switch about her contract. Hell, she might not have told her at all. We have no idea what was discussed.

If the switch was fully aware, then yes, she was unethical. But, again, when you get taken in by someone unethical, it's your own fault.

You don't know if the sub down played her relationship. You don't know if she said, I'm not collared, I'm not owned, I'm only under a temporary contract. (That was said to us once) You don't know if the sub enjoys being persued, played with it and it got out of hand.

Since you have no idea what REALLY happened, you have to put the blame on the person that didn't stop it from happening. Which is the person that allowed herself to play and didn't say "no".

_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to Twicehappy2x)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 9:24:14 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

Then again. We are all hearing only one side of the story. People tend to forget that when it is posted here in the forums. :-)


No, i am not forgetting, i am commenting on the story as it was presented.
 
And, as Jewel commented above, having recently witnessed this type of behavior, i am very aware that stuff like this happens a lot more than most want to admit.

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The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 9:30:48 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

It   Unless the woman goes into subspace with three smacks - in which case all I can say is DAMN - that's impressive.

I just find the whole blame game extremely juvenile on all fronts.  Accept responsiblity for ones OWN actions.  Accept the consequences of ones OWN actions.  Learn from them, and move forward.  OR, enable the immaturity, blame others, encourage the behavior and expect it to be a recurring theme in your life.   


Point one, i've been known to slip into subspace sitting on Scooter's lap, ask him.
 
Point two, read the entirety of my first post, i honestly believe, having twice recently witnessed those wishy washy easily led into stuff types, being led into things they should not have been doing, including some fairly self destructive behaviors, by someone they trusted utterly.
 
So while i take responsibility for myself and can control my own actions, i have come to realize there are that are just that easily led or mislead as the case may be.

_____________________________

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 9:40:00 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x
 Under the circumstances described by the OP, yes, i do blame the bee for sampling the honey, as she was very aware that the sub was new.
You're assuming that the the sub in question correctly and accurately told the switch about her contract. Hell, she might not have told her at all. We have no idea what was discussed.

If the switch was fully aware, then yes, she was unethical. But, again, when you get taken in by someone unethical, it's your own fault.

Since you have no idea what REALLY happened,


No, i assumed nothing, between the OP and an offline conversation, it appears the switch was aware of the contract.
 
Folks are taken in everyday by unethical people. You can either trust occasionally and at that point you are taking the chance on being abused by unethical people, or you can go through life never trusting anybody, which  tends to make one a bitter human being indeed.
 
If somebody abuses my trust once, shame on them. If i allow it to happen a second time, well then shame on me.
 
This is online dear, do i know what really happened? No? Do i even know you are really a female submissive? No. Do you know i am not really a typing monkey? No.
 
All we can do is take in faith what we see typed before us and comment on that.

< Message edited by Twicehappy2x -- 9/18/2008 9:41:48 AM >

_____________________________

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 9:48:06 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		A lot of this is about boundaries.  If people have them and understand them and are firm in them they will rarely be taken advantage of.

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- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Twicehappy2x)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 10:22:50 AM   
Llyren


Posts: 637
Joined: 3/5/2007
From: Illinois
Status: offline 		I have to agree with Katy.   It seems as though this situation is involving a new sub who is still shaky on boundaries, and a switch who has no concern with taking advantage of said boundaries.  Was the new sub responsible to a certain extent?  Of course she was.  She knew herself well enough to know that she was getting in deep, and I'm sure she was doing that ,"oh, just a little bit more won't hurt" (no pun intended) justification.  Then it got out of hand, as such situations often do.  The switch was on the prowl, and deliberately encouraged and pushed her into the situation.  It does sound as though she was grooming your sub with the "advice". 

As far as the claims of blowing it out of proportion for the drama value.  Probably a little bit, since everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, has a dramaqueen inside him or her.  Some buried more deeply than others, but we all have our moments.   The idea that this was all for the drama is negated by the witnesses who claimed that there was deliberately groping of the sub, and the switch was lying when she said that she was just being helpful. 

Personally, I've always felt ostracizing someone was an excellent teaching tool, but you really don't want to set her up to be a martyr.  My opinion, and I always have one, is to have the sub tell the switch very calmly, in front of witnesses, that she no longer wishes to associate with someone who can't be trusted.  Your sub feels, and rightly so, that she was taken advantage of by her so-called friend, and as a result of that, no matter what the switch claims, if your sub just states that she feels this way, and so doesn't want to be a friend to someone who she can't trust, there really isn't an argument the other woman can use.  She's not saying that you told her to stay away, but this is a decision she has made. 


_____________________________

I'm not perving. I'm compensating for my myopia. So nyah.


Member of Cock-Suckers for World Peace

"Character is what you are in the dark."

- Lord John Whorfin

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/18/2008 11:46:26 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Llyren


As far as the claims of blowing it out of proportion for the drama value.  Probably a little bit, since everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, has a dramaqueen inside him or her.  Some buried more deeply than others, but we all have our moments.  



MY Inner Drama Queen has burgundy hair, 6" stilettos, and razorblade hairpins! *Grins*

CFB

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Llyren)
Profile   Post #: 100
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