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RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 4:01:02 PM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

Hey Cali,

I'm not clear on your point. Any more mistakes you've made, you care to share? Just to help a gal understand?

Come on, be a pal!

In response to Blackphx, taking a situation of bad protocol, disrespect and poor judgment and making it into a legal issue - defnitely not the direction I would go, or want to go. The ramifications of doing so ... I cringe at the mere thought.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/16/2008 4:02:48 PM >

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 41

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 4:03:16 PM

daddysliloneds

Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

i would ask the contracted submissive what she felt was the best way to end this mess; i sure wouldn't run around trying to clean up all the messes she makes or buy into the he said/she said b.s.

AND

she would not go to a lifestyle event without either you or your partner present

AND

i would invite said switch to a public dinner with all of you present to sit down and talk like adults about what is/isn't appropriate behavior and what the outcome, for all parties involved, of such behavior will be if it happens again.

but what do i know? i never needed and/or wanted a mentor, babysitter, or 'lifestyle related' best friend.

(in reply to Asmodeus)

Post #: 42

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 4:05:37 PM

SlaveIndigochild

Posts: 272
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChickThere are two issues. 1 - Your sub allowed herself to be used, manipulated, flogged, etc. 2 - The switch may or may not have taken advantage of a situation (we know the sub's version, but not the switch's version).

i've continued to read through the saga. What has made me come back to it is the obvious sense of seriousness with which it is being treated as a community 'event' and also the sense in which protocols have been breached. It is outside of my right to pass any more judgments so here goes with some common sense;
i agree absolutely with CalifChick. It is simply hearsay and it is hearsay from the sub's perspective only. The major players have already sworn their allegiances and allies.
There is another strata to all this as well in that a new sub's adherence to role has almost completely obscured her common sense.
Just my deductions from what i picture from the posts.
Sometimes taking the higher ground simply means dismissal and refusal to get involved on any level.

< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/16/2008 4:09:07 PM >

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(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 43

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 4:25:37 PM

faithbunny

Posts: 99
Joined: 10/28/2007
Status: offline

Yes, she was manipulated, but that happens to people every day.

Let's pretend for a second that we're vanilla folk. ; ) If my ex came over and put the moves on me, and I slept with him, nobody would feel sorry for me because he knew me so well and I was manipulated. I would have cheated on my current boyfriend, 'but it felt really good' would not be an acceptable defense, and if I lost my beloved as a result that would be my hard lesson to learn. My beloved might go kick his ass, but I would still be in a *lot* of trouble.

So. Do you need to have words with this switch? You could. It's what guys do. But I think the first step needs to be your sub e-mailing her to say, you took advantage of me and you are not worth screwing up my current situation over, never contact me again. Until she does that, anything you say to the switch is essentially meaningless. Your sub's will is the one that really matters when it comes to beating off unwanted suitors.

As for you, I think your focus would be best aimed at ensuring that your sub is put on notice that you're letting this one slide, but you won't be so understanding if it happens again. If she is not held accountable, you're training her to do what feels good and cry about it later.

If the switch contacts her again after your sub tells her to get lost, *that's* when you should roll in and do the 'stay away from my girl' thing. ; )

~faith

(in reply to girlivy)

Post #: 44

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 4:42:35 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus
WinD -

While there might be some element of truth there, I've seen the emails that this woman has sent to her, after the fact, attacking my partner and everything we have been doing with the new sub. I do computers for a living; it wasn't faked or altered. So I don't think is a drama thing with the sub. if anything, she is the least drama-interested person I've met in a long time.

Put your penis and your ego down. Your sub was a naive dork and got taken advantage of (fairly easily and quickly). Oh well. Don't talk to the other woman again, teach your sub how to at least pretend to be a competent adult who can be trusted to handle themselves.

The fact is, anyone in the scene for more than five years has people who will send out "That dude sucks!" emails

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Asmodeus)

Post #: 45

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 5:07:54 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus

I just want to let this woman know that actions have consequences, and that of she continues on her present course, she will learn that first hand (noting illegal, immoral, or fattening). And I need to let our new sub see that the scene is not completely filled with manipulative jackasses who present themselves as something they are not in an attempt to screw with someone else's head.

mmmmmmm do you think this woman cares about what you think in the first place?   Do you think that letting this women know that actions have consequences is going to do any good?... in truth... who are you doing it for? Her... hell She doesn't care! If she did care.. she wouldn't of done what she done in the first place.

So.. who are you doing it for?   Problem with getting into a mud flinging contest... is you are going to get some one you no matter what you try and do. Best to stay away from the mud puddle if you want to keep it off of you.

next thing to consider.... who needs to know the truth... the guy or gal ten seats over in the event you attend? Or how about your family and friends... the people you know from experience you can count on. Hell... you keep youself out of the mud puddle.. you just might find a new friend or two that will earn your respect because of the way they avoid the gossip and BS that is generating.   Keep your cards close to your chest.

Frankly, what you are dealing with is kinda of minor. I have had the situation in which the person was part of the family... and left under some rather stressful circumstances. I kept the details to myself and within the family. It wasn't long that I found out who are people of honor and those that are not. I knew that time was on my side... I just had to wait and watch. In time she burnt alot of bridges.. so much so.. that a highly respected Leather man told her publicly to grow up after an incident... I suppose he had enough of her since he learned that she was quietly telling everyone that he was mentoring her....... I guess it was one lie to many. There was alot of people that learned the hardway because of her... and I learned who had honor in their heart and not on their name tag. Many can't look me in the eye.... and I am fine with that.   I know the truth... my family knows the truth... and that is enough. I am not trying to have or project some image in the community. I am what I am!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Asmodeus)

Post #: 46

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 5:13:54 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Stay with her in public in future and if this person comes up, simply take your sub away. Walk away, do not engage.
Assuming she doesn't know how to set up her email to send this person's mail to bulk or junk folder, go help her. Tell her to get caller id and block phone calls. If someone else brings this person up in conversation, just say something simple like you're very disappointed in her attempts to seduce your sub. With that said, gear head or not, no play with anyone else should now be redefined as no play at all including one hit with a new toy at a shop. Nothing meaning nothing.

Personally I'm not a believer in punishing someone in public, I think that as this is a private relationship the punishment should have taken place in private. And that you hold some of the blame for leaving her on her own when you knew this other person was there and was disrespectful of your wishes already.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Asmodeus)

Post #: 47

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 5:20:54 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

OP--Sorry this is going to be harsh, but this is how I see it.

I think the sub is responsible for what she allowed to happen. You either control yourself or someone else will control you. Hiding behind thoughts like "she was manipulated", "the switch took her to that headspace" "My slave has a weakness for floggers and toys" etc etc, is really just a way to place the blame on someone else and almost say that your slave had no control over the situation since the switch took advantage of her soft spots. I think when you tell yourself these things it makes you feel less disappointed in your new slave and keeps you from facing the fact that she may have just showed you just how much loyalty she has (or doesn't have) As long as she didn't have a gun to her head, I can't see this falling on anyone else but her. A simple "No way, Friend, I'm owned now and under contract" would have been enough. She consented to a flogging, after she had contracted not to play with others. I would make her take full responsibility....And by that I don't mean "She played some part in it, BUT". That's only going to let her off the hook and fall back on that the next time someone puts the make on her. Further, we don't have the switch's story. But assuming this side is 100% correct, I still think it's the slave's responsibility to have allowed this to happen.
Second, as mad as you are about the switch helping herself to your meat, trying to make her look bad in the "community" is only going to make you look lame. No one has to be warned to beware of her, you are telling yourself that in order to validate your real need which is to get people on your side and make the switch lose some friends because you're pissed off that she had something of yours. Really, that's what I see here, no matter how hard you try to make this look legitimate. Your slave broke contract and "cheated" on you, that should be your main focus in my opinion. As for the switch, stop responding to her, block the emails, and look the other way if you see her at events. If she touches your slave at a party, and your slave doesn't want to be touched, report it to the DM. And that's that. Stop trying to make the switch the scapegoat for the real problem.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 9/16/2008 5:21:52 PM >

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 48

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 5:36:33 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

~fast reply~

I would have to disagree with some of these comments. I think the reason that I disagree is because I have spent most of my time as an active participant in the community as part of a structured -house-, rather than in a monogamous, heterosexual, mostly -private- dynamic... a house that has always valued being very public, and very involved in the community (as opposed to the private individuals for whom community/group/public participation is more of a luxury thing). Members of our house have always been pretty active in the community, and because of that, we've obtained a reputation that enables us to be a resource for newcomers--for everything from experience for the person who wants some but doesn't have any, to pastoral care for people in relationships that caused emotional/spiritual/physical/mental damage. Our reputation is crucial, in order to be able to continue to be trusted in those kinds of situations.

At the same time, the fact that we are so visible has also left us open to some interesting interactions with members of the community who have a different agenda (especially, it seems, where those new explorers come into the picture). There have been any number of occasions where it has only been our insistence on neutral arbitration over situational issues that has protected the health of our reputation.

Unfortunately, after over 30 years in mixed alternative communities, I can say with some certainty that "good" does not always will out... nor does the truth always 'set us free'... sometimes, the only thing that works is a healthy case of CYA.

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 49

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 5:40:19 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

~ Fast Reply

A belief that I have long held is that I teach people how they can treat me. If I break a vow I made because someone showed me something shiny and new, I just taught that person that my vows are only good as long as I don't see something shiny and new. If I respond negatively to a person who makes negative comments about me and/or the people I love, I just taught them what it takes to get under my skin.

If the person violates my boundary, then I will tell them, "This is my boundary, if you want to maintain the relationship, do not cross it." Depending on how close the relationship is or how they respond to me enforcing my boundaries then they may or may not get more than one warning. Once I make the decision to stop interacting with someone, then I will not respond to them no matter how much they might try to manipulate a response from me. To respond to their attempts would just teach them what they need to do to get a response from me. The only way I would start interacting with that person again is if they demonstrated that they could conduct themselves in a manner that I find appropriate for the relationship I want with them and respect my boundaries.

If you attack this person in public, you just taught her what she needs to do to reduce you to her level. Is that the lesson you want to teach her?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 50

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 5:42:49 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

Ya know what Asmodeus?

You talk WAAAAAAAAY the fuck too fucking much.

Say it.

Say it well.

Close the argument.

(Wait for the response).

Don't fucking go on for 3 motherfucking eons about your issues and then ask for a response.

Just say it.

Say it well.

Close the argument.

(Wait for the response).

(in reply to Asmodeus)

Post #: 51

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 6:09:01 PM

mztresn0w

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/12/2008
Status: offline

Okay here is my two cents worth. Have your girl block e-mail and im's. If this person calls her then let it go to voice mail and delete it without listening to it. The same with text messaging. Delete and do not respond. { Okay stepping off the soap box}
I would hope this switch will get the message, if not and she continues then you may have to take it public. I had to do that. It wasn't something I wanted to do. But when dealing with certain drama you have to do it. She{the switch} knows that her behaviour is wrong. I will not blame your girl because she is a newbie and you did punished her. We all make mistakes newbie's make more. The switch knows better and if she continues with the games then she needs to be held accountable. Good Luck.

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 52

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 6:17:50 PM

kidwithknife

Posts: 193
Joined: 9/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus
I just want to let this woman know that actions have consequences, and that of she continues on her present course, she will learn that first hand (noting illegal, immoral, or fattening).

And you're going to defeat a drama llama through the cunning plan of stirring up more drama?

Ignore her. Your sub should cut off contact with her. If she comes up to you at an event, don't ignore her, don't just turn your back on her. Merely remain civil but uninvolved.

This isn't about backing down. This is about tactics.

Because, at the moment, the person in question is playing you like a bloody violin.

(in reply to Asmodeus)

Post #: 53

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 6:18:13 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Just a thought that you may not agree with: I do think this is not only the other girl's fault, but your sub's fault as well. After three blows with the flogger, she should have said, "that's enough", and got up/moved away/whatever. She needs to take some accountability for what she allowed to happen, and understand how not to let it happen again (with anyone, not just that girl).

That's exactly what I was thinking. The switch didn't force you girl to do anything. Not saying "No" is considered "implied consent". You girl allowed it to cross the line.

So, while the switch may be manipulative. We don't know since we don't know her motives or how much she knows about your girl's contract with you.

Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own decisions. Your girl is responsible for hers. She allowed herself to be taken advantage of.

As far as what's going on afterwards. Talking like adults is the first option. Next, is just ignoring what she's doing and don't slump to her level. Everyone else will figure it out.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 54

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 6:23:34 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus
WinD -

While there might be some element of truth there, I've seen the emails that this woman has sent to her, after the fact, attacking my partner and everything we have been doing with the new sub. I do computers for a living; it wasn't faked or altered. So I don't think is a drama thing with the sub. if anything, she is the least drama-interested person I've met in a long time.

Put your penis and your ego down. Your sub was a naive dork and got taken advantage of (fairly easily and quickly). Oh well. Don't talk to the other woman again, teach your sub how to at least pretend to be a competent adult who can be trusted to handle themselves.

The fact is, anyone in the scene for more than five years has people who will send out "That dude sucks!" emails

Have I told you lately that I love you?

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 55

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 6:28:17 PM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline

Heck - i am relatively new to the life, and i still wouldn't have let anyone take advantage of me. Your sub needs to get a clue.
And you guys need to stay the hell out of trying to turn anyone against the switch. It can only backfire on you. If this switch is so manipulative, then the community will either know or will get to know this aspect of her. And if they don't - then you look bad.

Think you really need to downplay this incidence, block emails and forget about her. She seems to be occupying an inordinant amount of time and emotional energy that could be better spent elsewhere.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 56

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 6:36:52 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

She seems to be occupying an inordinant amount of time and emotional energy that could be better spent elsewhere.

it does seem like the priorities are alittle off at the moment, don't they?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kiwisub12)

Post #: 57

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 7:05:40 PM

XPointman

Posts: 2
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline

I think the switch was absolutely out of bound. First she had intimate knowlege of the situation and she evidenced her distain for the relationship you had created. She showed absolute disrespect and way overstepped courteous boundaries. There is no reason not to point this out to everyone. In my opinion if someone states that thery are operating under rules of a relationship, there is no justification not to comply with those rules.

(in reply to Asmodeus)

Post #: 58

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 7:05:51 PM

scarlethiney

Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline

Cali is right on.
I'm sorry but I agree your sub is as much at fault as the switch. No one makes you do anything you don't really want to ..........I don't buy the sub space explanation. That's like saying "well I kinda sorta broke our contract", "I only inhaled I didn't really smoke it", It was just a tiny lie, not a big lie.
It's not who is right it's what's right............................If she broke her promise, her contract, her word then her integrity is in question and she's need to understand that. No one else not even the local drama queen, trouble maker should be blamed for your sub's choice.
I also agree a public outing of the troublemaker only gives her more power. I wouldn't give her the satisfaction of a another dramafest. Deal with her in person if necessary and if not move on she isn't worth your energy.

scarlet

_____________________________

"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.

see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 59

RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative ... - 9/16/2008 7:10:50 PM

BlackPhx

Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

In response to Blackphx, taking a situation of bad protocol, disrespect and poor judgment and making it into a legal issue - defnitely not the direction I would go, or want to go. The ramifications of doing so ... I cringe at the mere thought.

Actually I did not say handle it legally, I said look at how you would handle it WITHOUT the trappings of BDSM. We have all dealt with this type of thing, whether at work, school, on a date, where ever. The methods of handling this type or display/problem is the same. As far as the emails are concerned, if they are onerous to the sub in question and the person refuses to stop then going to that persons ISP is an option. It is not taking it legal to the police, but letting the ISP know that the person is in possible violation of their TOS and letting them decide the action to be taken which could be nothing more than a warning. It is not a solution I suspect they will take, but, it is one avenue that needs to be considered.

While the drama involved in the OP's post is not uncommon, one thing that has to be considered is that there are predators that walk this dance floor with us and that sometimes legal recourse is the best or only option. Sometimes the threat of legal recourse is enough. Just because you like being hit with a whip, does not mean that anyone can do that to you with impunity. No means No.

Did the sub in question have the responsibility to say no and move away from the play, yes. Did she have the capability? In all probablility. Would that stop everyone? Only the responsible and honorable. A Predator (and this includes manipulators) would have gone ahead and done what s/he wanted. Would that have been ok because it was BDSM related..Hell No. That's like saying a woman asks to be raped because she dressed in leather and latex and walked from her car to the club, alone. No means No and if someone is not respecting that which apparently this person did NOT when the sub was there for a meet and being punished and she needed to speak up loudly enough for someone else to step up and say, the woman said NO, when it happened, not after she ran back to her owner. Immediate response not delayed would have nipped any questions as to appropriateness and permissions in the bud and it would not be a clean up on aisle 3.

poenkitten

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 60

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