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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 6:05:12 AM

IrishMist

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This is an interesting one for me. I don’t define or look at ‘harm’ as most do. Almost everything that I had done or had done to me in my life would fall on the extreme side of harmful. Some I did myself, some my late husband did, some I have allowed others to do. I have had bones broken, been stabbed, been shot, etc etc, ...some were intentional, some were not. Yet, if I had to go back and do it all over, knowing the outcomes, I would not change anything. The harmful behaviors only made me stronger.

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Post #: 21

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 6:12:18 AM

Missokyst

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I am not sure we are aware, until hindsight proves where we went off track.
Early on when I first started doing this (before I knew it had a name), I was with someone for whom I would have walked into a wall of fire. 2 yrs into our relationship he said to me. "People think you are a snob because of the way you talk." He meant the fact that at that time I didnt cuss, use slang, and I sort of had a precise way of speaking. He told me that people thought I was snobbish because I didnt talk like them.

Wow. I was crushed. I spent the first 5 yrs of my life in East Los Angeles, and was embarrassed that I didnt sound the same as the kids around me when we moved to a more "anglo" world. As a child I taught myself not to have an accent, unless you count Beach Boy surfer. I had spent my childhood trying to fit in, and for the most part, becoming (as my friends said) Not like those others.
And now, I was here again. Different because of my speech.

I dont think he meant any harm, or perhaps he did since we were having an argument at the time.
But coming from a childhood where I had to remodel myself to fit in, what he said was emotionally crushing.

The harm he did that day effected me for years without my being aware of why. I started battling a stutter when I was nervous. I stopped doing poetry, .. heck.. I stopped writing for fear of how people might see me. I was a singer on the weekends and even that stopped over a short time. And I think the agorophobia I hold at bay now has its roots in those days.

We were together for another few years and I became dependent on him, on what I had to do to be what he wanted. I learned to cuss, spit, drink, smoke, use slang, and shut the fuck up so people wouldnt judge me. I became afraid to be me. And when we parted for that first time, I fell apart.

Harm does happen by degrees. Sometimes in small increments, and sometimes all it takes is tiny events to shove you over the edge. I doubt anyone would walk to the edge cliff if they realised that the ground had become unstable.
Kyst

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 22

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 6:23:13 AM

ExSteelAgain

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I have been in too many relationships for my own good, but I was always concerned about the effect I would have on the other. Two of them were married and that put an added responsibility on me. One of these had children and ended up leaving her husband so I realize what we do is not all fun and games. It is deadly serious.

I pay attention to the sub and her happiness and well being. I’m sure she senses that with me before we are deeply involved and that is one of the reasons she is willing to become my slave. Practically speaking, I never interfere with her job or her money. I encourage a sub to do well and be confident in her career and to save her money. See my pattern of concern? I’ve been told that my support this way has helped more than one.

But, hey, before you call me a nice guy, realize I’m selfish and know what I’m doing. By being someone concerned about the other, I’m actually gaining power over her.

All this really comes down to being careful to start with. Either not getting in a harmful relationship or recognizing it when you are there. Don’t rely on fate to put you where you want to be. Make sure you are compatible with inherent beliefs and not just hot for each other running off of hormonal gas in the tank.

Let the relationship grow and if you gradually come to a place where you begin to think he or she is like you and it is simply comfortable to be with that person, you will have less pain in the long run. If it doesn’t happen, make changes.

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Post #: 23

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:01:41 AM

marieToo

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I think you've grossly misunderstood the OP.

I don't think she was trying to define or lay out a standard of what "harm" is. She is asking for our own personal experiences based on our own interpretations, applied to our own individual relationships. And she's asking how we personally recognize it and/or deal with it.

Think about it. We've all had relationships that we came away from feeling hurt, or harmed or affected negatively by. She is asking us to tap into that and explain how we knew that harm to ourselves was occuring, IF we knew it was occuring, what we did about it, if we processed it, how we dealt with it. etc

Further, she specifically and clearly explained that she wasn't defining harm because she wanted everyone to base their response on their own standards.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 9/18/2008 7:03:45 AM >

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:08:12 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I think you've grossly misunderstood the OP.

my fingers thank you... you saved them alot typing.......

It seems no matter what a person says or how many understand correctly.. there is always one that hears something different than everyone else.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 25

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:10:46 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

When a person realizes that what they are doing is destructive for them, they need to decide what they are going to do about the situation to change it, so that it is no longer destructive. They need to be an adult and take responsibility for where their life is at and where it is going and how and if they are going to change it.

I completely agree! Even if that decision is to ride it out and let someone else continue to have the helm of the ship.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 26

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:14:49 AM

LadyPact

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Thank you, Kyra, for a very interesting subject to discuss. I sat here quite a while thinking about it and it brought some reflections that I probably need to look at just now.

On that question that you raised, how do you know if the decisions that are being made will cause harm, I have something I have to admit. As a Dominant, sometimes I don't. Like you pointed out, the issues aren't always black and white. Sure, it's easy for Me to sit here and say that I'm not going to tell My sub to run out in front of a bus or do some other fool hearty thing. That doesn't mean that some of the decisions I make today don't have a potential of causing harm. The truth of the matter is, in some cases, there's honestly no way for Me to know. I can't possibly predict the outcome of every decision that I will ever make. I don't think anyone can. The best anyone can do is make the best decisions they can with the information that is available to them.

Oddly enough, some decisions can be rather difficult. I have one in front of Me that I know is going to make someone very unhappy. In fact, it's going to hurt. When I say that, I don't mean the fun kind of hurt that I usually deal with. In fact, it's going to distress him a great deal. It wouldn't surprise Me a bit if, at this time, he will think it is harming him. Still, he's going to be told that he has to accept it. All he'll really have to go on is the fact that I am making this decision based on what I believe is for the best. He'll have to rely on the trust he needs to have in Me and the faith that I'm not intentionally harming him. That probably won't be especially easy, but it's something that he is going to have to do.

At some time later, we'll be looking back on this particular decision, and then we can weigh out if it really was for the best. Only time will tell if My thinking on the matter today was right or wrong.

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Post #: 27

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:27:58 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Seriously? This may not be a particularly appropriate viewpoint, but:

I don't think there's such a thing as "destructive directions". I think that there's plenty of things that each of us have already done that we can decide later were harmful and "beyond the pale". I think that we stay in relationships so long as we can convince ourselves that the good outweighs the bad, and so long as we convince ourselves of this, we choose to interpret events as "non-harmful" or ultimately "worthwhile". But we always have the option to re-interpret. We always have the ability to wake up and say "that wasn't a healthy BDSM relationship, that was abuse". And anyone can do this with any relationship, at any time. There is no magic behavior that is non-abusive. There is no magic line where kink crosses into abuse. There's just labels we hang on things, because we want to call things "good" and "bad" to make people look better or worse.

Worse than that: there is no such thing as consent in the moment. There is only consent after the fact, and that can always be revoked. No matter how many documents you have the other party sign, no matter how adamantly they swear, no matter how much you respect their safewords, if one day they wake up and say "I was raped", you raped them. If one day they wake up and say, "she manipulated me into that scene", you non-consentually manipulated him into a scene. If one day they wake up and tell the local community, "he's a manipulative abuser and dangerous", and they are believed, guess what?

In terms of these "subtle hurts", I think that this is a particularly relevant response in that it emphasizes that perception is the key element in the process... and it is the perception of the individual who sees hirself as being 'harmed' that carries the onus of defining what that harm is -for hir- and how it manifests... and what to do about it.

There is an old saying "Hindsight is 20/20." To me, this is a constant reminder that our memories are not pure reflections of all of the facets of a situation -- even as they occur, we modify circumstances in our memories in order to allow them to form a cohesive pattern with our perceptions of the moment... and then allow them to mutate as time and external cues modify our perceptions. This is why it is nearly impossible for us to judge whether a person is -harming- someone else if that 2nd individual is consensually participating in the ongoing behavior. While it may look like 'harm' to us, from the outside, from the inside the dynamic may elicit a completely different perception to the participants.

It is possible, though, to choose how you allow your perceptions to color your experiences. I lost a baby at 8.5 months into the pregnancy. She only lived for 15 minutes. I had gotten pregnant out of wedlock, and married the father despite not being romantically interested in him (or marriage). I fought to keep the pregnancy after some complications with asthma in the early months. I trusted a doctor that a friend had used for her pregnancies, even though some of what he was telling me didn't sound right, and gave birth to a baby 2 weeks early who only weighed a little over 2 lbs! I could have come through the experience very bitter and angry. Instead, I used the experience to learn about birth and to try to help other women to not have to go through what I did -- it provided the drive and impetus for 15 amazingly happy years as a midwife.

Everything we experience is subject to perception. Much of the 'subtle harm' that we allow to accumulate around our lives does its greatest damage -not- when it is occurring, but when we return to it in our memories, infusing it with the bits and pieces of flotsam from other places in our lives where we perceived 'harm', and alternately vilifying the other bodies involved and beating up on ourselves for our 'poor judgement'. How much more productive it is when we know ourselves, when we are forthright about what we are looking for and when we are clear and direct when a situation falls outside of the bounds of what we can accept as a 'healthy' situation.

One other thing that I think is relevant is the tendency that we, as humans, have to let fear rule our decision-making processes. Fear can chase us out of workable situations that need some modification but which could be healthy if we didn't run scared at the first signs of an issue -- and fear can also hold us in situations where we are no longer healthy because we don't know what the future will bring and the 'known' is easier to cope with than the 'unknown', even if the 'known' has become unhealthy. To me, that is like making the choice to stay in a burning building because at least you're in your own bed! It doesn't make sense, but as a paramedic I saw people who -did- things like this... they were more afraid of losing their home and security than about losing their lives.

I think that it is beneficial, on occasion, to look at one's life and see where time, energy, money, affection, etc., are going -- and to make sure that we are expending these resources in ways that are allowing us to continue to be our genuine self... and getting a good sense of the places where we're letting our 'known comforts' and our fear of change continue to drain energy that could be used for more productive purpose. BDSM aside, this is a conversation that every person needs to have with hirself regularly -- at least until caring for the genuine self becomes second nature.

Calla Firestorm

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***
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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 28

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 8:25:21 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I think you've grossly misunderstood the OP.

I don't think she was trying to define or lay out a standard of what "harm" is. She is asking for our own personal experiences based on our own interpretations, applied to our own individual relationships. And she's asking how we personally recognize it and/or deal with it.

Think about it. We've all had relationships that we came away from feeling hurt, or harmed or affected negatively by. She is asking us to tap into that and explain how we knew that harm to ourselves was occuring, IF we knew it was occuring, what we did about it, if we processed it, how we dealt with it. etc

Further, she specifically and clearly explained that she wasn't defining harm because she wanted everyone to base their response on their own standards.

I understood that from readng her post; however, because I do define harm as being the most extreme ( meaning death ), it was something that I had to point out in a response.

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Post #: 29

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 8:29:59 AM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterBrat
I am utterly amused by the number of people that sit around and judge and apply what works for them as though it applies across the entire ranges of dynamics, as though their standard is suddenly "the standard". And, even if their standard is shared by the top 1,000,000 from lot F, it in no shape, fashion or form negates or otherwise deminishes anyone in lot G that enjoy living on the edge between life and death.

And I am utterly confused at how what you wrote above has anything to do with the subject of the OP, which was clearly about a persons's sense of personal harm - how they define it, recognize it, and what they do about it - and not at all about standards across the board. You made some good points in your post, but they didn't seem to have anything at all to do with this thread.

Oops, I wrote this before I got to page 2 and it's already been pointed out. But I'll echo that and leave this post up anyway.

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 9/18/2008 8:33:01 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 8:56:15 AM

akisha

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I spent 5 years in a relationship that slowly destroyed my self esteem and self worth. I was alot younger then and alot dummer. (19 - 24)

There are signs when you are in a harmful relationship. It's whether or not you choose to see them, accept them and do something about them.

If you are sad and depressed more then you are happy, it's a sign

If you are lying to friends and family to cover up things, it's a sign

If you are constantly defending your partner or your relationship, it's probably a sign.

If you decide working 2 full time and one part time job all at the same time rather then have time at home, lol it's a definate sign.

The unfortunate part of this kind of harm rather then the immediate kind like a broken femur or a concusion from being thrown into a wall, is there is going to be harm done before you realize it and are able to take action against it.

In my opinion, having been in a "harmful" relationship, those more prone to be harmed are those that would rather be in any kind of relationship rather then be alone. Because they are entering into the relationship out of a place of desperation and misguided need, they are more prone to shrug off the signs of potential or on going harm. They are more likely to make excuses and ingore the ongoing and often excalating abuse.

Yes that was me to a "T" at that point in my life. After that relationship i spent a year an a half totally single and learning that being single was not a bad thing. That I did not need someone in my life to prove i was lovable. Only i could do that for myself.

It took me almost 3 years before i moved back into a solid one on one relationship again. Though I did spend almost a year in a very loving, very helpful, and very happy poly home for almost a year, but that was a year and a half after maintaining my life on my own and learning to be totally self suffeicent for the first year and a half.

My moto in life now is " I make the best decisions I can with the information I have at the time. Regret is a wasted emotion, admit your mistakes learn from from them and move on."

< Message edited by akisha -- 9/18/2008 9:32:02 AM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 9:34:02 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I think you've grossly misunderstood the OP.

I don't think she was trying to define or lay out a standard of what "harm" is. She is asking for our own personal experiences based on our own interpretations, applied to our own individual relationships. And she's asking how we personally recognize it and/or deal with it.

Think about it. We've all had relationships that we came away from feeling hurt, or harmed or affected negatively by. She is asking us to tap into that and explain how we knew that harm to ourselves was occuring, IF we knew it was occuring, what we did about it, if we processed it, how we dealt with it. etc

Further, she specifically and clearly explained that she wasn't defining harm because she wanted everyone to base their response on their own standards.

Actually i think He does understand it and is trying to say "what is harm" to begin with. That's of course if i understand Him

I personally think the term harm is extremely vague when you take into consideration the many possible individual perspectives. I side with Rabbit and live life how i like too cause i know somewhere down the line someone won't like something i do but i'm not here for those.I'm looking for someone who enjoys my way of doing things.

In my mind, intent makes a big difference. Like what was stated before, there will always be mistakes made.

I never set out to do harm to someone and all i can do after i cause it is apologise for my part in it. and learn from it.

I had somone recently do something to me out of spite and to make herself look good for others but do i hold it against her. Honestly, maybe just a little but most of the blame is on me because i saw the signs (these are the signs for me..each is slightly different)and i ignored them. I chose to take a chance.All of us see the signs in one way or another, you just choose to ignore them. To those that say "i looked back and realised it was harm" Your more responsible in my view than the ones who did the harm. You made a choice.

On the topic of harm.
I enjoy the occasional watersport. I had a slave who i recently had over. We were trying to make a connection.(yada yada) She had on her profile that watersports were a limit for her. We talked about doing it and she agreed. Really easily i might add. We wound out not working together for various reasons but now she's saying i'm a wannabe and i didn't respect her boundaries. To me that says she isn't able to deal with her own persoanll responsibility in a given situation. Now i know i might get some flack for this but honestly i could care one crap about it. We are both adults and she was under no obligation to do anything..It was her choice. That to me is just one of the numerous possibilities of looking like you did "harm" but actualy haven't. Not everyone who cries wolf..so on so on.

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Post #: 32

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 10:42:00 AM

persephonee

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i feel exactly that way too...i make the very best decision i can based on the information i have at the time and then i dont look back. Later..when i am wrong...which is often....i look back and say..."oh, that would have been good info to have at the time..." but really, how would that even matter anymore. Whats done is done.

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Post #: 33

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 10:58:35 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I personally think the term harm is extremely vague when you take into consideration the many possible individual perspectives. I side with Rabbit and live life how i like too cause i know somewhere down the line someone won't like something i do but i'm not here for those.I'm looking for someone who enjoys my way of doing things.

I agree. Discussion of the issue of what is or what is not harm is really rather irrelevant and not very fruitful in regards to helpful information for application in our own relationships.

The only perspective of what is or is not harm that matters is the perspective of the girl I am with, because that is the only perspective that will determine whether or not I have or have not inflicted harm in my relationship.

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Post #: 34

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 11:17:59 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I personally think the term harm is extremely vague when you take into consideration the many possible individual perspectives. I side with Rabbit and live life how i like too cause i know somewhere down the line someone won't like something i do but i'm not here for those.I'm looking for someone who enjoys my way of doing things.

I agree. Discussion of the issue of what is or what is not harm is really rather irrelevant and not very fruitful in regards to helpful information for application in our own relationships.

The only perspective of what is or is not harm that matters is the perspective of the girl I am with, because that is the only perspective that will determine whether or not I have or have not inflicted harm in my relationship.

I'm sure Your perspective matters as well, does it not? There are two in the relationship afterall. More if your in a poly

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Post #: 35

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 11:34:08 AM

CreativeDominant

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When I was going to chiropractic college, one of the first things they began to instill into the heads and souls of us soon-to-be-doctos was the ethos "Do No Harm". It sounds fine and noble and just the kind of thing a doctor should live by...until you begin to live by it blindly. Then it becomes frustrating and terrifying and unsatisfactory. So you sit down and begin to look at the simplicity of the statement and you focus on the word "Do". One of the definitions given for the word "Do" is this:
cause: give rise to; cause to happen or occur, not always intentionally; "cause a commotion"; "make a stir"; "cause an accident"
When you look at that definition, then the ethos translates to "Cause No Harm". Still a very high standard to live up to in your profession but it makes sense. A doctor should strive to cause no harm. But in the end, I am a fallible human being and not a machine. That is why I carry malpractice insurance.
In normal, everyday life I try to live by that same ethos. But I have a broken marriage behind me. Did I set out to intentionally cause harm to the marriage? No. But I wound up harming it anyway to the point of it becoming irreparable. But I made the decisions I did and she made the decisions she did, neither of us really wanting to destroy the marriage and yet, we did. Did I know at the time that some of the decisions I was making could lead to the end of my marriage? Yes, I did and chose those paths anyway, justifying the reasoning to myself. Looking back, I've taken my responsibility for those decisions I made, have done what I could to make amends, and have been able to move on with my life because of it...sad because of the destruction we caused but able to grow because I learned, with the help of a great therapist, what mistakes I made and also how to accept them and avoid them. This is why I loved what Aylee wrote as a general cautionary and instructive note:

Instead you have to be responsible for yourself and your decisions (YOU decided that you would continue trusting him, he did not decide this for you.)
As adults we must accept that ultimately our actions and decisions are our own individual responsibility and that means no whining about it after the fact.

I believe that my ex's failure to do the above...as a matter of fact, to engage in deliberately harmful behavior after the marriage ended...is one very important reason why my ex has not been able to find any partners that lasted beyond one or two dates.

As I told someone I know...a very sweet person who hates to hurt anyone, even me...life is a series of joys and hurts. Most of us do not set out to hurt someone within our relationship with them but if you are with someone long enough you are going to hurt them and it is not always...hopefully, usually won't be...intentional but it is going to happen.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 9/18/2008 11:42:21 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 11:58:33 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
...
What happens then, when someone realizes that they have made decisions or followed someone else’s decisions and it has led or is leading them down a path that was destructive for them?
....
How do you know that you are on a self-destructive path, whether you are the one making the decisions or following the decisions? What do you watch for? What do you do when you realize that you are there? What other thoughts do you have?
Knight’s Kyra

These questions strike home so deeply, I felt as if I had been struck in the gut when I read them, and that was 11 years after 'dealing' with the reality. For me, the realization that I was in a destructive marriage almost came too late. For myself and my children. I've said this before, but it bears repeating. People seldom wake up one day and become suddenly harmed by those they are in a relationship with. It is usually a cumulative process. The same can be said of most any harm that isn't acute in nature. Like illnesses, I believe there are chronic harms and acute harms. The hardest to recognize, are those that have become a 'normal' part of your life. Having been in an abusive and violent marriage, and having worked with other individuals who have as well, this is a recurring theme that reveals a well documented pattern.

I always hesitate to reveal these things because of how sincerely I worked to NOT be viewed as a victim and how adamant I am in the belief that there ARE healthy and minimally harmful BDSM/Ds/Ms relationships that have all the outward 'warning' signs of abuse, while having none or little of the internal harm and damage associated with them. I know the difference in my own mind, but I worry that by responding in a post such as this, that I will be in some way correlating the two and someone reading my words will confuse them or misunderstand my meaning.

In addition, I do understand and know that harms can arise over unintentional things that have nothing to do with the extremes of domestic abuse and violence. Such as living with someone who is emotionally distant and reserved, until one becomes starved for an emotional connection of any kind. Or simply growing older and growing apart, and realizing one day that you are living with a stranger or that you have become a stranger to yourself.

There is more that I want to say, but at the moment I think I'll just close with a thank you for the post and to express how very thought provoking it was.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/18/2008 12:29:18 PM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 37

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 12:06:48 PM

amberseeks

Posts: 3
Joined: 9/18/2008
Status: offline

.

< Message edited by amberseeks -- 9/18/2008 12:08:30 PM >

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 38

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 12:14:30 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

I see lots of nebulous answers, but I'm going to again give you my two concrete conditions in a brief post. Actually, this could apply to Doms also or to any relationship. If your finances are affected negatively or your job performance, those should be alarming signals. The solution, confront your partner and tell them it has to stop or......make other changes.

Most everything else we can debate and discuss, but when you are losing money or about to be fired because the relationship is affecting your work in a bad way, it's time to take care of yourself.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 39

RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 12:26:34 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I'm sure Your perspective matters as well, does it not? There are two in the relationship afterall. More if your in a poly

Nah, I'm afraid this where the huffing and puffing of "I am Master! I decide all!!" kind of comes to an end...at least, for me. While limits are set by me, what will or will not go is very much based off the boundaries of the person I am with.

If I decide or think something isn't harmful and it's harmful to them, then...it's harmful to them, no matter how much I wish or want it not to be.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 40

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