RE: Crossing the Line of Harm

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 3:22:29 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

ANY other limit in place is not a limit because I fear it, or it makes me uncomfy. ANY other limit in place is not for me, but for the guy I am with at the time. THOSE limits change over time as I get to know and trust the guy I am with.

That's cool. The thing about that though is it places you as the one in control of the pace of the relationship and that style doesn't simply fly with me. We talk things over, I deal with issues, we work past things, but ultimately the decision of what is or is not allowed comes down to me.

The important thing to understand though is the usage of the word "relationship" meaning this dictation of limits and pace begins AFTER we have gotten to know each other and some trust and interest in making things a bit more serious has been established.

Prior to that, we're just two normal people. That distinction is important, because what you say in the rest of your post is a lot of valid points and I don't want my articulation of my style to translate to someone as I am avocating not setting boundaries with someone you have just met.

quote:

My limits are not so much for me, but for him, because there are way too many guys out there who believe that they have to push limits to make them dominant.

I sometimes get categorized into that label, because I am someone who has and will push someone into doing something they didn't want to do initially.

Do I get some kind of enjoyment out of it? I would be lying if I said I didn't it.

Do I do it to feel "domly" and to get enjoyment? Nope. I just don't count on finding that 100% absolute perfect partner in my lifetime and I will push into those grey areas to make someone more pleasing and enjoyable to me while staying away from the black.

Why? Because in my book, that's kind of what dominance and control is about.

At the same time, I have to put my own effort into expanding my horizons and doing things I don't like or don't particularly want to do, because I am not going to be the absolute perfect partner for my girl.

Believe me, watching Sex and the City is not exactly on my top 10,000 ways to have an enjoyable evening, but my domly ego will survive because it was my decision and not something pushed upon me.

And it's not always about the sex or the kink. I use limits in a more universal word for all boundaries or limitations we put on ourselves or partners. I've had "exercise" and "removal of a lip ring" set as limits before and that simply does not fly with me at all.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 3:40:25 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
How exactly does presenting an opposite view become coercion?

When one presents an opposite viewpoint that is articulated in terms of "Dominants who do X are doing it because of Y" when several people have said "Well, we do X, but do it because of Z", then that is being one-minded and forcing the discussion along your parameters because your not recognizing or really caring about the other opinions being expressed.

quote:

quote:

If you want to exert and retain that kind of control and dictate what can and cannot be done, that's cool, but it can and does work other ways.

quote:

Not everyone sets limits solely to protect themselves from harm and I am not talking about those kind of things. I am talking about the ones solely in place because someone doesn't want to be in an uncomfortable position.

I read these two sentences as conflicting points.

Nothing conflicting about them and I am confident that your smart enough to know that. In one case, I am talking about a submissive dictating what may or may not be done and therefore controlling the boundaries and pace of the relationship and in the other I am talking about a dominant, even though he dictates what will or will not be done, understanding the simple fact that there is things people cannot do.

Now if you want to misrepresent me in order to strike back for me calling bullshit on a rather narrow-minded perspective of dominants who define the limits in their own relationship, then this discussion won't continue...at least on my end in response to you.

If that's not what your doing, then sorry, but that's how I read it.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 6:19:16 PM

catize

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~sigh~ I was enjoying this as a debate, but as you seem to ‘read’ my opinion as rancor, I will bow out.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 7:51:10 PM

Missokyst

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I think my major problem with guys who continuously need to stretch limits so they can feel joy is that eventually, as you grow closer, those limits drop off. And then what happens? Boredom? No more challenges? What happens when she gives you what you want? Will you then seek out those things that for her are not touchable? Or, will you move on to other challenges.
See.. my thing with limits does have to do with how much trust I put in my partner. But the other half of this is, ok.. I have done what he wants. What is left?
Personally, I don't like to feel like I have a limit on my time with him.

For me that is the ultimate crossing the line of harm. And it is something with which many of us are familar, and are almost always caught unaware.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Do I get some kind of enjoyment out of it? I would be lying if I said I didn't it.

Do I do it to feel "domly" and to get enjoyment? Nope. I just don't count on finding that 100% absolute perfect partner in my lifetime and I will push into those grey areas to make someone more pleasing and enjoyable to me while staying away from the black.

Why? Because in my book, that's kind of what dominance and control is about.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 8:08:55 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
I have done what he wants. What is left?

You do it again! Nah, seriously. I understand where you are coming from and I quanitify such stuff as the vanilla equivalent of the constant conquest for new pussy. If your viewpoint of someone is a jukebox you put nickles in until you experience the full selection of songs and move on to a new jukebox when bored, well...that's pretty fucked up and doesn't say much for the value you place on the individual.

I defiently agree there is a difference between someone pushing limits to get a full list of sexual experiences before tossing them away like an used condom and someone who does it to mold someone into what they want with the intention of being with them a long time.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/21/2008 7:57:20 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

What is left?

This is from my perspective of being in a relationship with Alandra for about 20 years....

Kyst.. you have a valid point.. But.. a couple things to consider.

what you know today... is not what your going to know tomorrow.

What I mean by that is that any limits/boundaries you perceive today can and will be different in the years to come.

You will learn things that will create new limits/boundaries as you are likely to bring down and push limits/boundaries that you have today. so.. it is not likely that you will be completely devoid of challenges in your life. so there is always opportunities for challenges within a relationship to grow

However, if all the Dominant's focus is on this challenge... then I would be concerned. Mostly, an individuals is geared to achieve certain things. When they are achieved... they can become rather restless. For many it's not just the challenge.. it's specific types of challenges that attract them. And when those specific challenges are over-come.. then they can be left wanting. So in general... a person has to look at what is there in the relationship besides the speific challenges and what are the motivations to pushing limts etc.. I don't believe the specific challenge or pushing specifi limits should be a focal point in the relationship. It might be part of the relationship.. but it shouldn't be everything to the relationship. Because I agree with you.. it puts a perception of a time limit on the relationship.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/21/2008 9:19:21 AM

Missokyst

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I think this has occured to me only in recent years, and in particular since being on my own again. So many men I meet, chat with, or who drop me a line eventually get around to stretching limits. Or, they have this idea that if you are not doing something you do not like, that it is not submission. My problem with this is that I tend to like a lot of things as they arise. So if I like them, in their view that is not submission.
And that for me is like giving the relationship the quality of being a 1 liter beaker. Once you reach the top the rest spills over. The option then is to get another container, or continue to pour water in the same vial with no changes evident.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
However, if all the Dominant's focus is on this challenge... then I would be concerned. Mostly, an individuals is geared to achieve certain things. When they are achieved... they can become rather restless. For many it's not just the challenge.. it's specific types of challenges that attract them. And when those specific challenges are over-come.. then they can be left wanting. So in general... a person has to look at what is there in the relationship besides the speific challenges and what are the motivations to pushing limts etc.. I don't believe the specific challenge or pushing specifi limits should be a focal point in the relationship. It might be part of the relationship.. but it shouldn't be everything to the relationship. Because I agree with you.. it puts a perception of a time limit on the relationship.
I have learned many things over my years, mostly about me and why I do things. For some of us, living in our own wrinkled, ripped, torn, well-worn comfy skin has become so familar that we know which parts can be smoothed, pushed, which can be stretched, and which pieces will rend the fabric and leave nothing but shreds.
So far I have avoided those breaking limit types, not because I fear the limits I have in place for people I don't know well. But because so much of what they say is geared to tearing the fabric just to prove their manliness.
Kyst

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/21/2008 10:04:00 AM

KnightofMists

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I think you raise a good point in that some individuals see the pushing of limits etc as a demonstration of submission. Which in of itself is not a bad thing.... but it does have some inherent issues with that line of thinking. I becomes a particular problem when you are dealing a person that has learned things about themselves through their life and has developed some boundaries/limits to fabric of who they are.

So... it can become a difficult issue for a Dominant who identifies submission as a person that is pushing limits... or doing the things that don't like when they are pushing an issue that a submissive has because it is protecting the fabric of who they are. The easy answer is the individuals are not compatiable and should move on.......BUT

but what happens when this is an ongoing relationship of many months or even years. Should they just walk away from each other? It seems rather unrealistic that people will do this in general. In fact, I think you see them trying to make it work... and in the course of it... it is possible that one or both become hurt or harmed from this issue. This type of issue can very much develop into a crisis for the relationship and even the individual. Submissives have related to their submissive nature to doing things that they don't like and Dominants see submission as points when the submissive is challenged.

Lot of people make fun or light of the idea of labels or definitions to these labels.... but as you can see from this situations... the given prespective can indeed lead a relationship into a crisis if they don't have other aspects that balance against this issue.

Deeply committed relationships of any relationship style can and do have signifcant emotionals consequences of a positive or negative type. We naturally would much prefer the postive consequences... but sometimes our own mindsets/beliefs set us up for a conflict within ourselves that spill into our relationships. There is no road map or set of rules that is going to be prefect... and if we are lucky... we are never faced with these types of conflicts in our relationships... but I don't think we can expect to be lucky. It's going to happen... and either the relationship will give or the mindsets/beliefs will have to evolve or change to maintain the relationship.

After alot of years with Alandra and a brief few years with Kyra in our life... I have found that I needed to evolve with the relationship... if I wanted to maintain and enhance the relationship. I would add that evolving doesn't mean that one needs to turn their beliefs or personality upside down. Subtle changes can have profound affects within a relationship for both the good or the bad. But, we can make the choices! We can take the actions that support those choices... we only need to make the choices that are more for the good than the bad. Sometimes we will get it wrong... but... those relationships that endure... tend to get it right alot more than wrong.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/21/2008 11:35:22 AM

NuevaVida

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I have been watching this conversation unfold and I'm finding it very interesting, particularly since most of the emails I'm receiving these days are from dominants who immediately say it is their goal to find and push limits. I'm feeling much like kyst these days. In fact, my first thought tends to be along the lines of, my last master pushed just about any limit there could possibly be...and these guys have no idea what took place...what is there left to push?? It seems a bit arrogant (then again, that's not necessarily a bad trait) to just assume they can take me farther than I've been, without even talking to me about it. A line like that is a big turn off to me these days.

Contrast that with the man I'm spending time with these days (I can't even call it a relationship, because we're just enjoying and learning each other - no commitment, no expectations, no defined relationship). We've spent over a month talking, laughing, meeting, enjoying, and the subject of limits hasn't even come up. It is not a goal of his to find and push limits; in fact it is his objective to allow me to feel relaxed, safe and "myself" in his company. He knows some of the things I've done and has assured me he will never have me do those things.

I am finding this situation to be so refreshing. For the first time I can just relax and not feel tense. And I'm realizing even more, that my submission comes from an internal desire to adhere to his preferences and desires, even if it's doing something I enjoy. It's hard to explain as I'm still discovering these changes, but what I can say is that what is occuring feels natural and not forced, and feels good. It was his concern that I might eventually become bored because his desires regarding "play" are rather benign, compared to what I have experienced, but I'm can see that is not the case at all. My submission is not about how "far" I can go, it's about deferring to what he wants and feeling good about it. The funny thing is, of all the "extreme" crap I did with the former Master, the biggest challenge I'm up against now is to allow this man to give me things I have never experienced from a man before - laughter, affection, care, peace, etc. This is a whole new experience for me, and he has said he's enjoying watching me learn to accept a man holding me and doing things for me. I never would have thought a mental limit of mine would be to not accept a man's affection, but it's harder than I thought!

Not sure where I'm going with this - just working some of this out in my head as I'm reading along. The conversation has elicited some thoughts I felt like writing...thanks for bearing with me. Where things go with this man remains to be seen, but in my explorations with him I am discovering things about myself, and about what is OK to desire for myself. I can see now that going back to what I was involved in before would be emotionally harmful for me. I can't begin to express the level of relief I am feeling at the idea of not having to do some of those things again. I enjoyed them before because of the reaction the master had, but in retrospect I can see they weren't always so good for me, personally.

For what it's worth, I'm appreciative for this thread being started and for the contributions made to it. It has helped in my own personal development in ways I don't even think I've realized yet.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/21/2008 1:35:09 PM

Missokyst

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That sounds great *sigh*.. sort of what I would be looking for if I thought there was a chance in hell someone was out there like that for me.
But the more I see, the more I am liking the idea of permanant celibacy and collecting knick-knacks and cats.
So many people are into this idea of "my way or the highway", "it is all about what the dom wants, and you should get all your satisfaction by serving his needs", or "I will stretch your limits" without knowing how far you may have gone in the past.
I feel like the net has stamped those new to this with a fictional color which few can brush aside.
In addition, even though I tend to see each man, each individual as if this was our first moment together (even after years), many men are intimidated by women who have had other lovers, other dominants, or more experience then they have, never considering that for her, this moment is new.
I think for me the line of harm has been crossed and there is no turning back.
Kyst

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/21/2008 3:44:31 PM

NuevaVida

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Hi kyst,

I understand where you're coming from. In all honesty, I have already begun collecting cats *grin*. Well, I got my first cat ever about 2 months ago and he is the new love of my life.

While I understand your sentiments about the "limit-stretchers" and the "my way or the highway" types (and while I do believe there is some legitimacy to those concepts, within certain understandings), I think from reading this thread alone, there is evidence that not every domly type is like that, and that reasonable dominance does indeed exist. If nothing else, perhaps those who have contributed such positive views to this thread will sustain hope to those of us who don't get to see much of that.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/22/2008 6:15:18 AM

simpleplan2

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I think this is what I was trying to say all along. That instant pushing of limits simply doesn't work for me. I never meant to suggest that all doms are like this or even that the majority are. I guess I didn't express myself very well.

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