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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 12:38:18 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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Winsome, thanks for the excellent personal and touching post.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 12:57:46 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

How do you know that you are on a self-destructive path, whether you are the one making the decisions or following the decisions? 

Usually little red flags pop up in my head based on past experience. I will become insecure, unhappy, generally unsettled.
 
quote:

What do you watch for?

I don't watch for anything. I try to go into a new relationship with a completely open mind, free of past negative experience.
 
quote:

What do you do when you realize that you are there? 

Truthfully bury my head in the sand and ignore it.
 
quote:

 What other thoughts do you have?

That i am being over sensitive and the issues don't really exist. That it will all get better without me doing anything about it.
 




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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 1:20:54 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I'm sure Your perspective matters as well, does it not? There are two in the relationship afterall. More if your in a poly



Nah, I'm afraid this where the huffing and puffing of "I am Master! I decide all!!" kind of comes to an end...at least, for me. While limits are set by me, what will or will not go is very much based off the boundaries of the person I am with.

If I decide or think something isn't harmful and it's harmful to them, then...it's harmful to them, no matter how much I wish or want it not to be.

To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess


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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 1:31:42 PM   
softness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Nah, I'm afraid this where the huffing and puffing of "I am Master! I decide all!!" kind of comes to an end...at least, for me. While limits are set by me, what will or will not go is very much based off the boundaries of the person I am with.

If I decide or think something isn't harmful and it's harmful to them, then...it's harmful to them, no matter how much I wish or want it not to be.


this is something I have really been thinking about a lot recently .. because in the end it nailed the coffin lid onto my relationship.

Situation A .. with factors B C and D exist. Dominant Infallibility would like to pretend otherwise .. but sometimes decisions made by a Dominant are just stupid and put us in harms way ... not serious harm perhaps .. but harm none the less.

If in order to be a slave I have to smile and nod while I am put in harms way because my Master has made a decision and he expects me to stick to it because he is the Master and I am the slave ... then slavery can go fuck itself up the arse .. as can the Master and the horse he rode in on.

As property I handed over responsibility for good decision making about my welfare to my Owner. That did not mean that I became a blithering idiot who could not see harm and danger when it was being set out in front of me.

Quite frankly my safety is more important than any Dominants ego .. period.
Some Dominants are so enamoured of their ego they are unable to see hurt and harm on the horizon and they happen to be the same ones who stamp their feet and hiss when a submissive chooses not to follow an evidently stupid decision.

< Message edited by softness -- 9/18/2008 1:32:20 PM >


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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 1:36:19 PM   
subenchanted


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Edited to remove a lot of personal stuff.

< Message edited by subenchanted -- 9/18/2008 1:42:20 PM >

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 1:40:37 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess



I don't think we are that far off.

There has been several times when I have said "Nah, that's bullshit. Your gonna get over it and do it", but it was done with a lot consideration to what the thing in question was and how the person responded to it and felt about it.

The point of what I am getting at is to work solely on what you think is harmful or not without it being molded to the other person or at least, giving consideration to how they will respond to it as an individual is...well...stupid.

As much as I want to say my prespective gains precedence, I just can't, because what we will or will not do is molded mostly from the input they give me.

I make a point to state "input they give me" and not "what they tell me" though, because to be frankly honest, a lot of self imposed limits are bullshit and done from an unwillingness to move out of their comfort zone. That doesn't cut it for me, because I force myself out of my own comfort zone all the time to meet new challenges and experience new things.

Edited to Add : But at the same time, what might seem like a comfort zone to you might actually fall into the category of "big, huge motherfucking deal". The "big, huge motherfucking deals" take precedence over an ego blow of the possibility of being topped from the bottom.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/18/2008 2:09:28 PM >


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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 1:44:19 PM   
softhearted


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I've experienced relationships in which red flags were there, but I saw them as something other than warning signs, I explained them away, or my mind distorted them into whatever I needed to see them as. Then after it was over, and not even immediately after, but some time after it was over, it was like a fog lifted and I saw things as they actually were. Looking back, I can't believe I didn't see certain things the way I should have. I'm not sure what it is that makes me temporarily blinded like that, except maybe being emotionally involved or maybe wanting something to be a particular way so badly that I convince myself that it's good when it really isn't.

I can analogize this with an optical illusion. It's like when you're staring at something so closely that your eyes and brain begin to contort something to look like something other than what it is. But once you step far enough away from it, blink your eyes and look again, it all comes into focus with complete clarity.



This is so much like what happened to me, except that the man himself was an optical illusion, not just the relationship. Just about everything he told me was a lie, but most were plausible lies, and it was my first D/s relationship. (I mention this last only because he was very experienced and I had no benchmarks for what being a slave was about.) And then, yes, it became easy to distort things, or to allow his "you are being a bad slave when you do X" to convince me not to do X. "Who is serving who?" he asked, and I crawled back into my "I'm being a bad slave" box. And, yes, he chose me because I was vulnerable emotionally and used that vulnerability cleverly and cruelly. His actions helped to trigger a major depression, which made it extremely difficult for me to think clearly or see what I should have seen.

It didn't take long for the optical illusion to become visible once it was shattered because of the shocking way things ended. I had lent him a laptop (not to mention way too much money) and, when it started to become clear (much much later than it should have) that he would not ever find enough time for me (he claimed to be working virtually around the clock, yet didn't pay me back a cent), I asked for my things back. He asked me for more time, while twisting my emotions by accusing me of enjoying humiliating him, and then vanished. I wrote to every email address I knew and silence. A month later I heard from another slave of his who told me that he had had back surgery. And then another month of silence. I was frantic with worry about him and finally thought to contact the woman he hosted his website. Rather than being the casual friend that he had said she was, it turned out that she had been seeing him for much of the same time that I had (as well as earlier periods of time) and described him as a "master of deception". Once I got the letter from her telling me the truth about him (no back surgery, having moved in with another woman I knew nothing about, barely working), I could see that everything from his first letter to his last were lies. (And the purported slave letters came from him, of course.)

I am not saying that I am purely an innocent victim. There were, as you say, clues that things were not as he said. I was far too afraid of abandonment. I had idealised him to the extent that I became unable to see him for who he really was. But predators — and there's no doubt that he is one — are remarkably good at manipulating people and twisting things around and breaking a woman down. He's done it to a number of women over the years, almost all of which were very intelligent, and he will undoubtedly do it again and again, because that is what he does and what he is.

A year later I am still grappling with why I "fell in love" with an illusion and allowed him to abuse me for far too long. There were many times that I should have walked away and didn't. I willingly, perhaps eagerly, suspended my disbelief because he seemed to be exactly who I was looking for: an intelligent, creative man in control of his life, highly experienced in BDSM. He played me masterfully, to be sure, as he's played so many others, but I wasn't a prisoner and in theory could have walked away and didn't. Being emotionally vulnerable does not give one an excuse to park one's brain at the door, but it also doesn't give an abuser the right to take advantage of it.

It's scary to know he's on the prowl again (he has two profiles here). It's scary to know he lives a couple of miles from me, although he's not allowed to have any contact with me. I feel compassion for his future victims and wish I could warn them. And every month I will be reminded of him, because the court has placed him on pre-trial probation that requires him to pay me back some of what he owes me each month, so it will be a long time until I am entirely free.


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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 1:48:02 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness
this is something I have really been thinking about a lot recently .. because in the end it nailed the coffin lid onto my relationship.

Situation A .. with factors B C and D exist. Dominant Infallibility would like to pretend otherwise .. but sometimes decisions made by a Dominant are just stupid and put us in harms way ... not serious harm perhaps .. but harm none the less.

If in order to be a slave I have to smile and nod while I am put in harms way because my Master has made a decision and he expects me to stick to it because he is the Master and I am the slave ... then slavery can go fuck itself up the arse .. as can the Master and the horse he rode in on.

As property I handed over responsibility for good decision making about my welfare to my Owner. That did not mean that I became a blithering idiot who could not see harm and danger when it was being set out in front of me.

Quite frankly my safety is more important than any Dominants ego .. period.
Some Dominants are so enamoured of their ego they are unable to see hurt and harm on the horizon and they happen to be the same ones who stamp their feet and hiss when a submissive chooses not to follow an evidently stupid decision.


I agree completely and this is why I have a hard time with defining my relationship as either "D/S" or "M/S", because in that particular case, I would want you to fight me, defy me, challenge me, and tell me I am wrong.

One of the first things I tell anyone when we start to broach the subject of my dynamic is "If you ever feel like you cannot do something I am insisting that you do, then refuse to do it and argue with me."

Nothing pisses me off more than the phrase "Well....I just wanted to make you happy..."

NO! NO! NO!

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 1:54:41 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess



This is assuming you have a female that would look for ways out, rather than be totally honest with you. 

In my case, whether I wanted to do something or not didn't really matter.  I would let him know how I thought and felt on the subject, and how it was affecting me.  He would decide, and I would proceed as he wished, as that is what my commitment to the relationship entailed.  What MR's comments said to me was something along the lines of my own final nail on the coffin of my relationship.  I still did (or at least tried to do) what was expected of me, knowing it was becoming more emotionally harmful to me to do so.  The master felt I could deal with it, and pushed me to do so.  He felt it shouldn't harm me.  I did what I could to meet his expectation, but regardless of whether or not he felt it should or should not harm me, it did.  When he finally recognized it, the damage was already done to the relationship.

Not everyone is looking to look for ways to get their own way.

And yes, I did play a part in that damage, in that I chose to continue to follow his rule, despite feeling badly.  One of the challenges is in trying to figure out if you're in a temporary situation and can just stick it out, or if this is going to be an ongoing ordeal.  Then of course, at least in my case, it was an issue of questioning myself in the process - am I failing at this?  Shouldn't I be able to do this?  Am I less devoted than I thought I was?  Where is my sense of commitment?  Am I really being a slave as I defined slavery to be?  What is wrong with me in this picture?  Should I throw 4 great years away because it is difficult now?  Etc. 

As has been mentioned before, in situations that are mentally/emotionally harmful, hindsight is 20/20.  One often doesn't realize the damage that is being done until it is already being done.  Situations like this aren't so black & white as people would like them to be.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 2:07:29 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
As has been mentioned before, in situations that are mentally/emotionally harmful, hindsight is 20/20.  One often doesn't realize the damage that is being done until it is already being done.  Situations like this aren't so black & white as people would like them to be.


And unfortanely, that is the minefield we have to navigate in power-based relationships and what, I think, is their biggest fallacy and why two decent people with the best of intentions can get together and have it crumble around them.



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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 2:11:02 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
As has been mentioned before, in situations that are mentally/emotionally harmful, hindsight is 20/20.  One often doesn't realize the damage that is being done until it is already being done.  Situations like this aren't so black & white as people would like them to be.


And unfortanely, that is the minefield we have to navigate in power-based relationships and what, I think, is their biggest fallacy and why two decent people with the best of intentions can get together and have it crumble around them.




Definitely, MR.  The key (in my opinion, ayway), is to see it for that and not become angry and bitter and blameful (is blameful a word?).  Sure there might be anger in the process of understanding it all, but it's not good to hold onto that.  In the end, in my case, I could not give him what he wanted and he could not give me what I needed.  It simply was what it was.  Neither of us wishes the other anything but the best.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 3:28:47 PM   
phoenixrising43


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Thank you for posting kyra.  I am at a point in my life where I am looking back at a relationship I had with a local dominant.  It was my first relationship in wiitwd.  I have to honestly say I fell head over heels and lost sight of myself, even though there was something niggling at the back of my mind.  In the beginning it was good and worked very well, but confusion started when love entered the equation.  I really think that this relationship was harmful to me emotionally and spiritually.  But I held on to it, in spite of my gut feelings.  I threw caution to the wind and decided to follow this person, thinking he had the best of intentions.  After all, he took the time to get to know me as a friend first.  At least I thought we were friends anyway.  The path he led me down was destructive, but I followed willingly. 

In hindsight, I realize I never even thought about emotional boundaries.  But those are important as well.  I think being new...the only things I thought about were physical boundaries.  So I have learned something from the experience.  Sadly for me anyway, I lost my faith in him, and I am not sure it could ever be restored...knowing what I know now.  My trust and faith were eroded over time in degrees.  But I kept clinging to the hope that he would come clean about something he should of long ago.  I just wanted the truth.  The final straw came after the end of the relationship, funny how that occured too.  We were still in contact with each other for awhile.  I think I was just hoping the person I knew long ago and could see in him, would come back.  But...that person is long gone or simply was not ever there.  People can put on their best faces, but then they eventually crack over time.

< Message edited by phoenixrising43 -- 9/18/2008 3:30:45 PM >

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 3:45:54 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenixrising43

I think I was just hoping the person I knew long ago and could see in him, would come back.  But...that person is long gone or simply was not ever there.  People can put on their best faces, but then they eventually crack over time.


maybe that person you saw is there... it's just that you didn't see the other parts of him that have eroded your faith in him and now maybe that is all you see.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 3:54:32 PM   
KnightofMists


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I relate to finding oneself caught in the grips of a destructive or bad situation to being caught in a flowing river.   Often times a river can be deceiving of the power and strength of the current that exist.  More than a few people have ventured into such a river only to find themselves struggling to get out.  In many ways, it's muh easier to float along with the current than attempting to fight the current and swim directly to the shore.  Even if one slowly edges back to the shore.. it takes time and effort to break free from the current.  Relationships can be like that for many.. it takes time to break free  and it takes alot of energy as well.  The irony that it sometimes is easier to just flow with it... even though you feel that it wrong for oneself.

I don't think there is any easy answers.  But one will never find any answer if they are not looking for them in the first place

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 4:09:13 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


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A brilliant and thoughtful set of questions.
Many answers but the first that springs to mind is that it has in the past occurred to me to ask myself just how long can i go on being a slave?
i say that because on one level i am very aware of how almost all of what i do is service of some sort.
i put myself last.
This isn't anything to do with what my Dominants and two Masters have intentionally expected from me necessarily. But there are no doubts in retrospect that they have liked, appreciated, and dare i say thrived and indeed loved the service i have offered.
i have always released myself. And if you count me initiating divorce then i have divorced myself from marriages also. i have done so because (way past the time when i should have done) i have remained in relationship into a harmful stage for me, when none of my needs had been attended to.
Now where i am at is where we are at, master abd i, and he has made it repeatedly clear that my needs will be, shall be and indeed ought to be taken care of. It is new territory for me to have this combination of erotic sadism and love.
There is no emotional sadism and therefore no opportunities for me to indulge in emotional masochism...and this of course is what i have bewn describing. Putting my self last had meant negating my own emotional needs almost completely.
Negating obes own needs is the most insidious form of harm.
Another point is the post traumatic naure of intense sado-masochism...but that i haven't thought on enopugh so will think about it after reading the thread for a while.


< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 9/18/2008 4:10:26 PM >


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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 4:30:54 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenixrising43

Thank you for posting kyra.  I am at a point in my life where I am looking back at a relationship I had with a local dominant.  It was my first relationship in wiitwd.  I have to honestly say I fell head over heels and lost sight of myself, even though there was something niggling at the back of my mind.  In the beginning it was good and worked very well, but confusion started when love entered the equation.  I really think that this relationship was harmful to me emotionally and spiritually.  But I held on to it, in spite of my gut feelings.  I threw caution to the wind and decided to follow this person, thinking he had the best of intentions.  After all, he took the time to get to know me as a friend first.  At least I thought we were friends anyway.  The path he led me down was destructive, but I followed willingly. 

In hindsight, I realize I never even thought about emotional boundaries.  But those are important as well.  I think being new...the only things I thought about were physical boundaries.  So I have learned something from the experience.  Sadly for me anyway, I lost my faith in him, and I am not sure it could ever be restored...knowing what I know now.  My trust and faith were eroded over time in degrees.  But I kept clinging to the hope that he would come clean about something he should of long ago.  I just wanted the truth.  The final straw came after the end of the relationship, funny how that occured too.  We were still in contact with each other for awhile.  I think I was just hoping the person I knew long ago and could see in him, would come back.  But...that person is long gone or simply was not ever there.  People can put on their best faces, but then they eventually crack over time.

Maybe you just got to know the person better, as does happen over time, and realized he wasn't compatible. It happens with a lot of relationships, sometimes the picture we see is on the surface. Maybe he wasn't hiding it, maybe you just didn't see it till you were neck deep.

Funny thing is..If you want to see the bad in people you will. I could call abuse on any number of my past relationships too but you know what? That's the muck of it. Relationships aren't neat little always nice packages for us..Your dealing with emotions and that gets pretty messy at times. I never loose sight of that so i don't expect the fairy tale.

How many here have said things they wished they could take back but POP it was out?
I've had it done to me and I've done it in the past. Crap happens, you say your sorry and you move on hopefully but to call the occasional falter, abuse? I think that's just grabbing at something.Don't you?
Not saying anyone is doing that, just saying.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/18/2008 4:32:43 PM >


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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 4:45:27 PM   
phoenixrising43


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Very true...have already considered that.  But, he hid something very important from me.  Well actually more than one important thing in hindsight.  I just realize that I really shouldn't maintain contact with him, because it is not healthy for me and only makes me worried for him.  I don't think the care or concern is mutual either.  But when people seem to be in trouble, I just want to help.  Anyway,  it is no longer my concern. it is now up to a vanilla someone who is very ill.  Like a mutual Dom friend of mine said last month..."You were just fooled by a player, who is really good at telling you want you want to hear.  He never was really following the lifestyle and just lived for the sensation play.  Nothing wrong with that if you don't try to present yourself as anything else."  But that is not what happened.  Anyway you live you learn.  From what I understand those kinds of guys are a dime a dozen at some of the parties and munches.  You just learn over time to steer clear of them I guess.  They are not exactly evil people, they just are not always the right match for everyone.  So that is where clear communication and honesty factor in.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 4:55:49 PM   
phoenixrising43


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I don't think anyone is exactly calling anything they signed up for abuse.  This is all just food for thought anyway.   I think it is about just figuring out when things in a relationship have the potential to harm someone in some way.  Both people should be responsible for their actions.  But that doesn't always happen.  So it is really best to be responsible for oneself and continually strive for honesty in a relationship.  If the other person can't give that, it simply won't work out.  Best to walk away early, than later down the road.  Unless, one is co dependent and loves dealing with lies and drama.

As for taking things back that were said, if only things were that simple.  I prefer someone just stating how they are feeling or what is going on.  I can deal with that stuff.  Brutal honesty is always the best route.  Even when it is something you don't want to hear.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I knew that Bill Clinton had that pesky little affair, I was just hoping that he would just say..."Yes, I did have an affair with that woman."  ;)

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:11:34 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I relate to finding oneself caught in the grips of a destructive or bad situation to being caught in a flowing river.   Often times a river can be deceiving of the power and strength of the current that exist.  More than a few people have ventured into such a river only to find themselves struggling to get out.  In many ways, it's muh easier to float along with the current than attempting to fight the current and swim directly to the shore.  Even if one slowly edges back to the shore.. it takes time and effort to break free from the current.  Relationships can be like that for many.. it takes time to break free  and it takes alot of energy as well.  The irony that it sometimes is easier to just flow with it... even though you feel that it wrong for oneself.

I don't think there is any easy answers.  But one will never find any answer if they are not looking for them in the first place


This is what I like to refer to as the comfortable cycle of dysfunction.  It's what you know, even if it's bad.  Change is scary, even if it's a change for the better.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:14:39 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

This is what I like to refer to as the comfortable cycle of dysfunction.  It's what you know, even if it's bad.  Change is scary, even if it's a change for the better.


yes... unfortunately...if one continues on that comfortable cycle of dysfunction.... mmmm... it never ends well.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 60
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