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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:17:22 PM   
phoenixrising43


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		Yes, best to break free of it.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:17:23 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Typically no, it doesn't.  Typically someone must be squeezed too tightly for it to be comfortable anymore, to make a change - whether it's a job change or a relationship change.  In any case, though, even when things don't end well, there is always the opportunity to shift courses and make things better.  Any change gives the opportunity for a better life - it's all a matter of whether one takes that opportunity or not.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:20:46 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I once heard and actually agree with the idea

... when the effort to change is greater than the pain of staying....... one stays...

... when the pain of staying is greater than the effort to change.... one changes.

where exactly is that line in the sand?  I don't think we can be entirely sure until we are at the edge of that abyss.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:21:48 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I absolutely agree.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:25:26 PM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: natasha66
Sad to say it often takes an outsider to point out what's wrong in a situation.


I would agree that an outsider is very often the first to realize the wrong of the situation..... However, seldom does a person listen to the outsider.  All you can do is plant a seed and it may take root or it may not.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to natasha66)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:28:11 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

  To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess  

 
If you are not willing to consider that a submissive is self aware enough to know what would harm them, you run the risk of causing yourself damage because the relationship might be placed in jeopardy. 



_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:44:38 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

  To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess  

 
If you are not willing to consider that a submissive is self aware enough to know what would harm them, you run the risk of causing yourself damage because the relationship might be placed in jeopardy. 


I agree..... I would also add that it is a question of trust!  If you can't trust that a submissive is being honest in sharing their thoughts and feelings on an issue that they believe is harmful to themself.... then I expect the lack of trust will spead in all aspects of the relationship sooner or latter.   

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:54:10 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

  To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess  

 
If you are not willing to consider that a submissive is self aware enough to know what would harm them, you run the risk of causing yourself damage because the relationship might be placed in jeopardy. 



In a perfect world we are all self aware and share our thoughts without hesitation. We never lie or live in denial. Like i said before, i will listen to her input but she placed her trust in me to make decisions for Us..If she feels the need to second guess me personally, depending on what the reason was, i would have a problem with it. If i asked her to chop her fingers off, i could easily see no problem with her saying no. If i asked her to quit her job and get another one, ask the reasons of course but trust my decision. Tell me no flat out with an attitude and i might just get upset over that lol.

We could go all day and give examples and for the most part i think we could generally agree on most things.

Adding this. I will consider anyone self aware where i can see the actions that support them being enlightened.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/18/2008 5:57:25 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:56:26 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I just wanted to thank everyone for the thoughts they have shared on this thread.  Reading the posts have helped me smile despite all the tears shed for our golden kitty that we had to put to sleep today.  In many ways the decisions we had to make touched very closely to the topic of this thread... does it harm him more to keep trying to make him live?

I look forward to reading more thoughts shared by others and it was my pleasure to intitiate the discussion.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:58:52 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I just wanted to thank everyone for the thoughts they have shared on this thread.  Reading the posts have helped me smile despite all the tears shed for our golden kitty that we had to put to sleep today.  In many ways the decisions we had to make touched very closely to the topic of this thread... does it harm him more to keep trying to make him live?

I look forward to reading more thoughts shared by others and it was my pleasure to intitiate the discussion.

Knight's Kyra


I'm sorry for your loss. They can become like family members.(sometimes better than family members)


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 6:16:33 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

  To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess  

 
If you are not willing to consider that a submissive is self aware enough to know what would harm them, you run the risk of causing yourself damage because the relationship might be placed in jeopardy. 




This is a good point, not only about giving the submissive credit for knowing what might harm her, but even just giving her credit to know what she is feeling, what she can handle, what she can't handle. etc.

I've been in situations with Dominants who insisted I could handle something or I was ready for something even though I didn't think I was.  I have to say sometimes they have been correct and I was not only able to deal with it, but was fulfilled afterwards and proud of myself for going through with it. 

On the other hand the most frustrating thing is when I adamantly tell a Dom what my state of mind is and he will insist despite my telling him, that I feel something different than what I'm saying I feel.  This gets old after a while, because as you stated, you have to give the submissive enough credit for having a decent level of self-awareness.  This is where I think it becomes so hard for Dominants to be Dominants.  It's sometimes a delicate line and not always easy to know when and where to cross it, when it will turn out ok and when it might backfire and do damage.  When should a Dom yield to a submissive because he gives her credit for being self-aware?  And when should he over-rule her own word?  It's a tough row to hoe, I'm sure.  In that type of a situation, as I think mad rabbit was saying, even if you don't mean to do harm, sometimes harm does indeed take place simply because of a poor judgement call.  It's a fact of life and an ever-present risk that both partners take for the fulfillment of having a Ds dynamic. 

And in other cases, as PhoenixRising and Soft-hearted were saying where there is wrong doing, we can only take responsibility for our own part in the demise, or our own part in not being perceptive enough at the time to see through it.  But we certainly can't suck up the responsibility for a partner who may have been disingenuous or dishonest about  his/her intentions.  

I think if I end up 'harmed' in some way, and it stemmed accidentally from a really intense relationship, it might even be worth bearing a lifetime scar for it.  But being hurt or harmed because I wasn't sharp enough to see through someone's bullshit is really a waste of pain.


_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to catize)
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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 6:25:54 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo


I think if I end up 'harmed' in some way, and it stemmed accidentally from a really intense relationship, it might even be worth bearing a lifetime scar for it.  But being hurt or harmed because I wasn't sharp enough to see through someone's bullshit is really a waste of pain.



I think that's a pretty good outlook. It shows balance as far as I'm concerned.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:10:41 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

   you have to give the submissive enough credit for having a decent level of self-awareness.  This is where I think it becomes so hard for Dominants to be Dominants.  It's sometimes a delicate line and not always easy to know when and where to cross it, when it will turn out ok and when it might backfire and do damage.  When should a Dom yield to a submissive because he gives her credit for being self-aware?  And when should he over-rule her own word?  It's a tough row to hoe, I'm sure.

  
I think the answer is the oft repeated communication, and I mean real communication where there is as much listening as there is talking.  If a dominant insists that he/she can’t live without XXX, and I know that XXX is something I can’t live with, then we better heed each other’s words and base our respective decisions on what we have heard, not just on who ‘’should be’’ in charge.



quote:

  I think if I end up 'harmed' in some way, and it stemmed accidentally from a really intense relationship, it might even be worth bearing a lifetime scar for it.


 
There are two parts of this for a relationship to weather a mistake; the first is the magnitude of the error and the second is, as MadRabbit stated, the perception each person attaches to it.  As I wrote in my initial post, the time and experience with R. and S. have allowed me to be more forgiving because the weight of a mis-step is far less than the importance of the overall relationship(s).

quote:

  But being hurt or harmed because I wasn't sharp enough to see through someone's bullshit is really a waste of pain.

I love this sentence!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:16:03 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

 I agree..... I would also add that it is a question of trust!  If you can't trust that a submissive is being honest in sharing their thoughts and feelings on an issue that they believe is harmful to themself.... then I expect the lack of trust will spead in all aspects of the relationship sooner or latter.   


 
Yes!  We talk a lot about the submissive needs to trust the dominant but  many forget  that trust is a two-way street. 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:26:41 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

 I agree..... I would also add that it is a question of trust!  If you can't trust that a submissive is being honest in sharing their thoughts and feelings on an issue that they believe is harmful to themself.... then I expect the lack of trust will spead in all aspects of the relationship sooner or latter.   


 
Yes!  We talk a lot about the submissive needs to trust the dominant but  many forget  that trust is a two-way street. 


It sure is and trust is earned through actions not words for me. If you show me you can be trusted i will believe you. I rarely respond well to someone talking about how well they have their crap together as i watch them do the opposite of what they profess. Master or slave. Nor would i expect others to trust me if i did the opposite of what i said.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:35:52 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Dominants like that are running rampant.  But so is the idea that they are somehow all knowing and wise.  I think too many forget the human equation.  Mistakes will happen, take responsibility for your actions.  Sadly, many of those dominants will continue to profess the mantra, I will have it my way, period.  And many submissives will live in the victim role until they understand what works for them.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
On the other hand the most frustrating thing is when I adamantly tell a Dom what my state of mind is and he will insist despite my telling him, that I feel something different than what I'm saying I feel.  This gets old after a while, because as you stated, you have to give the submissive enough credit for having a decent level of self-awareness. 

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 7:53:59 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

  
quote:

I think the answer is the oft repeated communication, and I mean real communication where there is as much listening as there is talking.  If a dominant insists that he/she can’t live without XXX, and I know that XXX is something I can’t live with, then we better heed each other’s words and base our respective decisions on what we have heard, not just on who ‘’should be’’ in charge.

 
I think this is the heart of it really.  All too often it comes down as some kind of competition of wills between Dom and sub, when I think the healthier and more functional solution is taking the time to know one another, while putting the egos on the back burner.





_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 8:01:41 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Exactly.  Been there, done that myself too.  And as you said, it's a matter of learning what works for you.  I think sometimes it's necessary to encounter some of the "harm" in order to recognize something healthy when it comes along.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Dominants like that are running rampant.  But so is the idea that they are somehow all knowing and wise.  I think too many forget the human equation.  Mistakes will happen, take responsibility for your actions.  Sadly, many of those dominants will continue to profess the mantra, I will have it my way, period.  And many submissives will live in the victim role until they understand what works for them.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
On the other hand the most frustrating thing is when I adamantly tell a Dom what my state of mind is and he will insist despite my telling him, that I feel something different than what I'm saying I feel.  This gets old after a while, because as you stated, you have to give the submissive enough credit for having a decent level of self-awareness. 



_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 8:08:58 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Reading the posts have helped me smile despite all the tears shed for our golden kitty that we had to put to sleep today. 



Kyra:  I'm sorry to hear about your kitten, I saw the pictures you had posted and she was adorable.  :)

Hope you guys can cheer up soon.

And thanks for such an awesome thread topic.   It made me think a bit.


_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 8:09:17 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I think this is the heart of it really.  All too often it comes down as some kind of competition of wills between Dom and sub, when I think the healthier and more functional solution is taking the time to know one another, while putting the egos on the back burner.  


I’ve said this before but I think it bears repeating.
When a dominant views a limit as a challenge it suggests to me that it is not about the relationship but more about his carelessness for my well-being. 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 80
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