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I rarely respond well to someone talking about how well they have their crap together as i watch them do the opposite of what they profess.  

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ORIGINAL: catize

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I think this is the heart of it really.  All too often it comes down as some kind of competition of wills between Dom and sub, when I think the healthier and more functional solution is taking the time to know one another, while putting the egos on the back burner.  

I’ve said this before but I think it bears repeating.
When a dominant views a limit as a challenge it suggests to me that it is not about the relationship but more about his carelessness for my well-being. 

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 I would say it depends on what the limit is in question and why it is a limit.

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ORIGINAL: softhearted
It didn't take long for the optical illusion to become visible once it was shattered because of the shocking way things ended. I had lent him a laptop (not to mention way too much money) and, when it started to become clear (much much later than it should have) that he would not ever find enough time for me (he claimed to be working virtually around the clock, yet didn't pay me back a cent), I asked for my things back. He asked me for more time, while twisting my emotions by accusing me of enjoying humiliating him, and then vanished.

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ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I just wanted to thank everyone for the thoughts they have shared on this thread.  Reading the posts have helped me smile despite all the tears shed for our golden kitty that we had to put to sleep today.  In many ways the decisions we had to make touched very closely to the topic of this thread... does it harm him more to keep trying to make him live?

I look forward to reading more thoughts shared by others and it was my pleasure to intitiate the discussion.

Knight's Kyra

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ORIGINAL: simpleplan2

But what if you find drinking urine to be degrading AND you don't like the taste?  I do agree that it does depend somewhat upon what the limit is; however, if you're in a relationship and, up to this point, have found that your submisive to be open, then it seems logical to trust that she's basing the limit upon her perception that it would be damaging to her self esteem. 

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ORIGINAL: simpleplan2

But what if you find drinking urine to be degrading AND you don't like the taste?  I do agree that it does depend somewhat upon what the limit is; however, if you're in a relationship and, up to this point, have found that your submisive to be open, then it seems logical to trust that she's basing the limit upon her perception that it would be damaging to her self esteem. 

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ORIGINAL: catize

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 I would say it depends on what the limit is in question and why it is a limit.

I can only speak on my own behalf, but my limits are there for a reason.  I am willing to discuss and explain my rationale. If he persists I see it as an attempt to invalidate what I know to be true about myself

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ORIGINAL: simpleplan2

Yup, I find myself agreeing with you catize.  I have limits in place for a reason.  Now, those reasons may change with time and trust or they may not.  I think that's the key...they may not.  If my dominant can live with that...it's all good.  If not, he's REALLY got to understand that no amount of chest beating or brow beating for that matter is going to change my mind. 

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ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

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ORIGINAL: Icarys
To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess

This is assuming you have a female that would look for ways out, rather than be totally honest with you. 

In my case, whether I wanted to do something or not didn't really matter.  I would let him know how I thought and felt on the subject, and how it was affecting me.  He would decide, and I would proceed as he wished, as that is what my commitment to the relationship entailed.  What MR's comments said to me was something along the lines of my own final nail on the coffin of my relationship.  I still did (or at least tried to do) what was expected of me, knowing it was becoming more emotionally harmful to me to do so.  The master felt I could deal with it, and pushed me to do so.  He felt it shouldn't harm me.  I did what I could to meet his expectation, but regardless of whether or not he felt it should or should not harm me, it did.  When he finally recognized it, the damage was already done to the relationship.

Not everyone is looking to look for ways to get their own way.

And yes, I did play a part in that damage, in that I chose to continue to follow his rule, despite feeling badly.  One of the challenges is in trying to figure out if you're in a temporary situation and can just stick it out, or if this is going to be an ongoing ordeal.  Then of course, at least in my case, it was an issue of questioning myself in the process - am I failing at this?  Shouldn't I be able to do this?  Am I less devoted than I thought I was?  Where is my sense of commitment?  Am I really being a slave as I defined slavery to be?  What is wrong with me in this picture?  Should I throw 4 great years away because it is difficult now?  Etc. 

As has been mentioned before, in situations that are mentally/emotionally harmful, hindsight is 20/20.  One often doesn't realize the damage that is being done until it is already being done.  Situations like this aren't so black & white as people would like them to be.

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ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

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ORIGINAL: softhearted
It didn't take long for the optical illusion to become visible once it was shattered because of the shocking way things ended. I had lent him a laptop (not to mention way too much money) and, when it started to become clear (much much later than it should have) that he would not ever find enough time for me (he claimed to be working virtually around the clock, yet didn't pay me back a cent), I asked for my things back. He asked me for more time, while twisting my emotions by accusing me of enjoying humiliating him, and then vanished.

Softhearted, I'm not making fun of you, but that should is my rule number one warning sign for submissives (or Doms too, actually) to heed. When you start losing money you are in something that is so wrong it should be like a two by four beside the head.

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

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ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

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ORIGINAL: Icarys
To me that opens up the door for a female that doesn't want to do something to have a way out. I am the Master and the desisions are mine to make..either for the good or bad. I will take her input but i have the final say. I guess that's kinda what your saying but it seems a little new age. If that's how you are then that's fine for you. I'll keep huffing and puffing i guess

This is assuming you have a female that would look for ways out, rather than be totally honest with you. 

In my case, whether I wanted to do something or not didn't really matter.  I would let him know how I thought and felt on the subject, and how it was affecting me.  He would decide, and I would proceed as he wished, as that is what my commitment to the relationship entailed.  What MR's comments said to me was something along the lines of my own final nail on the coffin of my relationship.  I still did (or at least tried to do) what was expected of me, knowing it was becoming more emotionally harmful to me to do so.  The master felt I could deal with it, and pushed me to do so.  He felt it shouldn't harm me.  I did what I could to meet his expectation, but regardless of whether or not he felt it should or should not harm me, it did.  When he finally recognized it, the damage was already done to the relationship.

Not everyone is looking to look for ways to get their own way.

And yes, I did play a part in that damage, in that I chose to continue to follow his rule, despite feeling badly.  One of the challenges is in trying to figure out if you're in a temporary situation and can just stick it out, or if this is going to be an ongoing ordeal.  Then of course, at least in my case, it was an issue of questioning myself in the process - am I failing at this?  Shouldn't I be able to do this?  Am I less devoted than I thought I was?  Where is my sense of commitment?  Am I really being a slave as I defined slavery to be?  What is wrong with me in this picture?  Should I throw 4 great years away because it is difficult now?  Etc. 

As has been mentioned before, in situations that are mentally/emotionally harmful, hindsight is 20/20.  One often doesn't realize the damage that is being done until it is already being done.  Situations like this aren't so black & white as people would like them to be.

Exactly.  As I noted, I try to follow that ethos of "Cause No Harm" but, as often happens, during the time of my marriage I was able to justify or rationalize many of my most harmful actions.  T'was only my own decision to see a therapist that helped me to see the "wrongness" of my thinking.  His concise statement of "it doesn't matter what you think...if your partner thinks what you did was cheating...it is cheating" opened the doorway to many other things that were there but which I refused to see.

Now?  Yes, I have a statement in my profile that states that there is one leader in any D/s dynamic I enter into and it's not you BUT before that part comes what is, to me, the important part:  There is room for two partners.  What that means is this:  if I make a stupid decision for you and it feels strongly "wrong" in terms of being potentially harmful to you or to the dynamic...then DON'T just blindly do it, argue with me.  Show me I am wrong and where.  As M.R. says, don't just do it to make me happy.  Yes, I want you to make me happy but in a way that either immediately or in the long run...because let's face it, your satisfaction from making me happy is not always going to come right away and may indeed start out with  you unhappy...makes you happy and the dynamic stronger and better.

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ORIGINAL: softhearted

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ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

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ORIGINAL: softhearted
It didn't take long for the optical illusion to become visible once it was shattered because of the shocking way things ended. I had lent him a laptop (not to mention way too much money) and, when it started to become clear (much much later than it should have) that he would not ever find enough time for me (he claimed to be working virtually around the clock, yet didn't pay me back a cent), I asked for my things back. He asked me for more time, while twisting my emotions by accusing me of enjoying humiliating him, and then vanished.

Softhearted, I'm not making fun of you, but that should is my rule number one warning sign for submissives (or Doms too, actually) to heed. When you start losing money you are in something that is so wrong it should be like a two by four beside the head.

Yes, it should have been a two by four beside the head. Believe me, I feel incredibly stupid to have believed his bullshit. Fortunately (in a sense), he crossed the line and committed two felonies, so along with feeling stupid I was able to take action.

The greatest harm he caused, however, was eroding my sense of self-worth in subtle ways. That's really more on point, I think. It's easy to say that I (and the others) should have walked away once that started happening. But when it's mixed in with sex and "caring" and learning how to be a slave and he's subtly playing on a person's weakness, self-worth can erode so gradually that one doesn't realise what's happening until one is in a place of confusion as to what is the right thing to do. Humiliation can be a powerful tool for growth -- or so I hear -- but knowing that also allows the acceptance of humiliation that is just the opposite. Psychological abuse can be so subtle that one doesn't realise what's going on until one has in essence become a battered woman, which is a mighty hard state to get out of.

Perhaps I'm semi-hijacking the topic, because I've experienced serious emotional harm that was intentional and so I tend to focus on that as I work through how I allowed it to happen. Knowing how many women he's done this to (I've spoken to three of them and heard about a fourth) shows how good he is at it, but that doesn't let me off the hook. I should have run away from him, just as the others should have. Believe me, I've done a lot of thinking and therapy since all this happened and I think and hope I'm in a better, healthier, and safer place than I was when I fell for him.