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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 8:50:27 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

It sure is and trust is earned through actions not words for me. If you show me you can be trusted i will believe you. I rarely respond well to someone talking about how well they have their crap together as i watch them do the opposite of what they profess. Master or slave. Nor would i expect others to trust me if i did the opposite of what i said.



Good in theory... but not so simple in life if one actually hopes to have enduring results.

The idea suggests that actions speak a specific message.  Now.. I might perceive a given action in one way... but that is not neccessarily what the actions mean to another.  So... same action can have a variety of messages depending on who is seeing the actions and that message maybe something other than was preceived by another. 

Secondly, same actions can have a variety of motivations.  It is indeed possible that "No... I think that is gross" that will be motivated for different reasons.  person A might feel a deep feeling of self-harm to such an action and just can't communicate it constructively... while person B is just trying to manipulate the situation.  Same actions... different motivations are very common even with the same person.

Actions by themselves are just that  Actions... without the words, thoughts, feelings behind them.... we can't know the motivations. It takes effort to actually take the time to understand the motivations behind the actions and even simple words.   To many just don't want to take the time and effort to know.  Instead.. they build walls that hinder the relationship... might be why they are without a relationship or run through the gambit of a relationships rather quickly and rationalizing it that the various people where not compatiable partners. 





_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 9:03:26 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

It sure is and trust is earned through actions not words for me. If you show me you can be trusted i will believe you. I rarely respond well to someone talking about how well they have their crap together as i watch them do the opposite of what they profess. Master or slave. Nor would i expect others to trust me if i did the opposite of what i said.



Good in theory... but not so simple in life if one actually hopes to have enduring results.

The idea suggests that actions speak a specific message.  Now.. I might perceive a given action in one way... but that is not neccessarily what the actions mean to another.  So... same action can have a variety of messages depending on who is seeing the actions and that message maybe something other than was preceived by another. 

Secondly, same actions can have a variety of motivations.  It is indeed possible that "No... I think that is gross" that will be motivated for different reasons.  person A might feel a deep feeling of self-harm to such an action and just can't communicate it constructively... while person B is just trying to manipulate the situation.  Same actions... different motivations are very common even with the same person.

Actions by themselves are just that  Actions... without the words, thoughts, feelings behind them.... we can't know the motivations. It takes effort to actually take the time to understand the motivations behind the actions and even simple words.   To many just don't want to take the time and effort to know.  Instead.. they build walls that hinder the relationship... might be why they are without a relationship or run through the gambit of a relationships rather quickly and rationalizing it that the various people where not compatiable partners. 





This is true.
Actions can speak a certain way to a person. If a person does A then the possible reasons are B, C, D and  Maybe E. Then a rational person might see the individuals own personality and make up to discern what the probable reasons are and narrow it down from there all the while taking into consideration what the submissive has stated.

I never just take a persons word on anything till i either have actual knowledge from their other actions that would lead me to believe that they are in fact honest people. I'd like to be able to but it just doesn't work that way for me. I give a person the benefit of the doubt to a degree but i'm no fool either.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 5:00:01 PM   
catize


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I’ll agree that my posts have been one-minded because I am, indeed, speaking my mind and I am aware that it is a minority opinion.  I am writing on a subject that I have very strong feelings about and I am certainly willing to express my thoughts vigorously. 
quote:

My previous posts express the exact opposite of the opinion your trying to force upon the issue  

How exactly does presenting an opposite view become coercion? 
quote:

  If you want to exert and retain that kind of control and dictate what can and cannot be done, that's cool, but it can and does work other ways.

quote:

  Not everyone sets limits solely to protect themselves from harm and I am not talking about those kind of things. I am talking about the ones solely in place because someone doesn't want to be in an uncomfortable position.

I read these two sentences as conflicting points.  You seem to agree that at least some limits are valid, yet you assume that Simpleplan and I ‘dictate’ to our dominants because we do have valid limits?    
quote:

that all of us dominants who don't accept a limit are doing so out of a place of lack of trust and chest beating.

What I have been trying to convey is that accepting or rejecting a limit should be decided after there has been a great deal of communication which hopefully leads to a better understanding of whether this is a weighty matter or a simpler issue. 



_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 5:05:56 PM   
catize


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quote:

 I believe that if you can't find that Dominant that you can give everything too..Your wasting your time.  


Just another way of saying "you're not submissive enough."
“I can’t” doesn’t always equate to “I don’t want to.”  Sometimes it means “I really would love to please you with this but I .just….. can’t.”   

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 5:39:10 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

 I believe that if you can't find that Dominant that you can give everything too..Your wasting your time.  


Just another way of saying "you're not submissive enough."
“I can’t” doesn’t always equate to “I don’t want to.”  Sometimes it means “I really would love to please you with this but I .just….. can’t.”   

That's not the way i meant it but you seem to read into it that way. Which is fine by me.

I also vigorously believe in what I'm saying as well..I will say that if your not trying to give yourself over fully to a dominant why bother. Truthfully you may not be enough for me but you may be just right for another.(shrugs)

On the conflicting points..They make perfect sense to me..not sure how they conflict. Maybe he's saying he can see both sides?

< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/19/2008 6:38:30 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 5:55:36 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

What I have been trying to convey is that accepting or rejecting a limit should be decided after there has been a great deal of communication which hopefully leads to a better understanding of whether this is a weighty matter or a simpler issue.


My females have the limits i impose. If i don't want to do something then it doesn't get done. There isn't negotiation. They either find me to their liking or they don't. Now that being said, if there is something that has the potential of doing harm and i can get that from them. They aren't in the habit of topping from the bottom then i wouldn't want to cause them any harm. Afterall i'm in this for the love.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/19/2008 5:56:26 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 6:22:53 PM   
MasterBrat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterBrat
I am utterly amused by the number of people that sit around and judge and apply what works for them as though it applies across the entire ranges of dynamics, as though their standard is suddenly "the standard". And, even if their standard is shared by the top 1,000,000 from lot F, it in no shape, fashion or form negates or otherwise deminishes anyone in lot G that enjoy living on the edge between life and death.






And I am utterly confused at how what you wrote above has anything to do with the subject of the OP, which was clearly about a persons's sense of personal harm - how they define it, recognize it, and what they do about it - and not at all about standards across the board.  You made some good points in your post, but they didn't seem to have anything at all to do with this thread.


Oops, I wrote this before I got to page 2 and it's already been pointed out.  But I'll echo that and leave this post up anyway.


Fine as you wish. If a person says to her Master.... "Master the next time you beat the crap out of me, Your slave, is it begging too much that you not stop when i pass out?" Master asks "Why?" slave replies "All these people were talking about personal harm on CM and i realised that all this time i was afraid of dying and i know that you only were stopping for me... if Master wishes Master may continue as slave wishes to give all that she is to Master."



(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 6:32:40 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		What's with the Awaiting Approval?

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 6:36:30 PM   
brokenmind


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

What's with the Awaiting Approval?


That's what happens when you run amok... they put you on super secret no one can read your BS if it is BS probation.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 6:39:37 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brokenmind

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

What's with the Awaiting Approval?


That's what happens when you run amok... they put you on super secret no one can read your BS if it is BS probation.


I see. Thanks.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to brokenmind)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 6:49:24 PM   
catize


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quote:

   Truthfully you may not be enough for me but you may be just right for another.(shrugs) 


In light of the fact that I don't recall expressing an interest, your comment is rather ...pointless.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 7:18:50 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

   Truthfully you may not be enough for me but you may be just right for another.(shrugs) 


In light of the fact that I don't recall expressing an interest, your comment is rather ...pointless.

Again you read into something that wasn't there so it's your comment that is pointless. I never said anything about an interest either way my POINT was that what's good for one might not be for another. I can definitely see where Rabbit got His impression of you. He was spot on. Seems like your a touch overly sensitive.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/19/2008 7:20:59 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/19/2008 7:57:11 PM   
catize


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I apologize Kyra for getting off track a bit here.  Much like safe words,   limits are not the magical protection against all harm.  As others have pointed out, many of us have harmed ourselves and others. It isn’t always a matter of poor choices, sometimes harm can occur even when we thought our choice was a good one at the time.  Sometimes we get lucky and a poor decision turns out okay.
What I got from part of your OP was that it is not necessarily about the harm itself but how do we deal with it and can we cope effectively?   Are we able to give our partners the grace of acceptance that they can be quirky, annoying and sometimes just plain wrong,(and of course accept that about ourselves as well) and still submit to their authority?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 8:29:09 AM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

What I got from part of your OP was that it is not necessarily about the harm itself but how do we deal with it and can we cope effectively?  


yup... that is huge point!!!  It's going to occur in some fashion or another.... some are going to come at you rather direct and straight forward.... rather easy to deal with.   But those curve balls can be rather tricky.


Are we able to give our partners the grace of acceptance that they can be quirky, annoying and sometimes just plain wrong,(and of course accept that about ourselves as well) and still submit to their authority?


I think Marie captured it rather well when she stated the following.

quote:

I think if I end up 'harmed' in some way, and it stemmed accidentally from a really intense relationship, it might even be worth bearing a lifetime scar for it.  But being hurt or harmed because I wasn't sharp enough to see through someone's bullshit is really a waste of pain.


There is a whole bunch of issues with harm... but our ability to endure it and over come it will be very much connected on how it happen in the first place.   A dominant that allows his Ego and insecurity or fear of the submissive 'topping from the bottom' to make decisions that lead to harm of their girl... well it will not be so easy to overcome in the relationship and might sow the seeds of failure for the relationship.  But... when such harm occurs "innocently" then as much as no one wants it to occur.... the relationship is stronger than the damage that the harm has caused.... and like marie said.... "worth bearing a lifetime scar for" the relationship.

I have every confidence that with harm caused on Alandra and Kyra(to a lesser degree) that they would and do carry the scars.  But... this is only because of the strength of the relationship we have.    It is the what we do that the gives us a strong relationship that builds the endurance to these events or situations that cause harm.   A person can make all the limits you want... but in the end.... you can limit every possibility.  A person can have the intent and try to make choices that will never cuase harm.... but you can't be prefect.  It will happen... and most cases it is going to be a slow build up rather than those sudden extreme events people try to throw into the discussions.  Often times.. when I see these extremes... or this idea that I am the Dominant... I will protect them from everything.  I see people that really don't have a clue and a train wreck in the making.  Maybe I am alittle jaded... maybe it's becaues of my years of living in the relationship with Alandra that I have crossing alot of paths.  But when I see someone that is in and out of relationships trying to give pop. culture wisdom of the lifestyle... It turns my stomach.   It is actually concerning when such pop culture is served with a silver spoon.  Looks good on the surface... but there is so much under the veneer and seldom is it substances.





_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 9:13:13 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		This is why I always state that I have a couple of hard limits which are untouchable, period.

ANY other limit in place is not a limit because I fear it, or it makes me uncomfy.  ANY other limit in place is not for me, but for the guy I am with at the time.  THOSE limits change over time as I get to know and trust the guy I am with.

My limits are not so much for me, but for him, because there are way too many guys out there who believe that they have to push limits to make them dominant.
Chest beating.. that is a great description. 
Not all dominants are of this ilk.  But enough are, that make us on the other end more hesitant. 
Those of us who know our limits and why they are there would understand this. 
Dominants who run across the new and unknowing are accustomed to finding the line. 
Some of us know our line already.  It is only the new partner with whom we may need to become more sure before those things are crossed.
I have lots of small lines in the sand just for the type of man who only feels fulfilled by stretching my limits. 
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Dominants who push those limits aren't invalidating what someone knows to be true about themselves, demonstrating a lack of trust about the submissive's own understanding of their safety, or chest beating to always get their way.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 10:03:47 AM   
catize


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quote:

  It is the what we do that the gives us a strong relationship that builds the endurance to these events or situations that cause harm.   A person can make all the limits you want... but in the end.... you can limit every possibility.  A person can have the intent and try to make choices that will never cuase harm.... but you can't be prefect.



In the early days with R. he referred to me as a ‘scardy-sub’ and he was quite accurate.  When I would say “hurt me but don’t hurt me” I was placing a lot of landmines in his path.  Thankfully he saw potential in me and was willing to invest the time, not to remove those landmines himself, but to let me remove them.    
When we focus too much on the possibility of harm we become immobile.  That is not living at all, is it?    


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 10:14:54 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
When we focus too much on the possibility of harm we become immobile.  That is not living at all, is it?    



Not for me at least............  I think so many Dominant's egos get in the road thinking they will remove those landmines or... no girl of mine is going to place landmines in my path....... that in the process they set them off instead.    The end result is what they are focused on... but it's the method of removing the landmines that really matters.......... and many of the methods I see are well... clumsy.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 10:36:08 AM   
catize


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
When we focus too much on the possibility of harm we become immobile.  That is not living at all, is it?    



Not for me at least............  I think so many Dominant's egos get in the road thinking they will remove those landmines or... no girl of mine is going to place landmines in my path....... that in the process they set them off instead.    The end result is what they are focused on... but it's the method of removing the landmines that really matters.......... and many of the methods I see are well... clumsy.


***warning: blanket generalization ahead***
The words landmine and clumsy in the same sentence should be a hard limit for everyone! 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 11:14:52 AM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		Harm is dark...you quit wanting to get out of the bed in the mornng, your work suffers, you pull away from those who might offer you some way out because you feel alientated and alone in your suffering You TELL everyone you are fine, that things are ok, but inside you seriously start wondering if driving your car into the next tree that comes along on the highway might be a good idea. You KNOW when you are being harmed, but sometimes you also tell yourself you can't change things, it's not that bad, you are strong enough to handle it.  You hope for a light at the end of the tunnel  while digging ever deeper into a pit of despair. Harm can be insidious sometimes...it comes on so gradually that you don't even realize how bad it is until you are in so deep you can't see a way out. The thing is...getting out of harm's way can demand drastic changes...and this at a time when your emotional reserves are at an all-time low. It is so easy for someone on the outside to think "getting out" should be easy, but it never is. It is one of the hardest things you can ever do. I still don't know how I made it out of my bad situation..but one day I finally said..."I 've had enough"..and once the decision was made, the rest fell into place. Now I look at my life and marvel at the changes that have occured since that time and what a different person I have become. Maybe we all need to suffer to appreciate the good that comes along later, but life is too short to suffer by choice.  You can love again, trust again, love life again...why not give yourself the opportunity even if it means you have to admit defeat in the situation you are in?

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/20/2008 12:23:37 PM   
softhearted


Posts: 21
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline 		I can add nothing to your message since what you said describes where I've been perfectly -- and perfectly sadly -- except for the part about getting out, because the closest I did to taking action against my abuser was to go to the police once my illusions were forcibly stripped from me.

(in reply to ChainedExistence)
Profile   Post #: 120
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